LampLinc: ON level 1-100% works, 0% does not

[Wingsy]

What I want to do is to change the ON level (applied locally) to 0% so that pressing the ON button in a LampLinc does exactly that - turns it off if on. If I set the ON level to anything from 1% to 100%, it works as expected - the lamp goes to that brightness level. But when I set it to 0% and press the ON button it goes full on. You suppose that's a kink in the software or you think they intended it to be like this? And why?

Whoa... just discovered that if I press the ON button once it turns full on, and press ON again and it turns OFF. It toggles! This stuff is real intuitive, not.

Another edit: If I use a program to turn on the LampLinc (Set 'Garage Door Indicator' On), it goes to 0%. I guess I really DO live in a quantum world.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Wingsy

[stusviews]

Are you setting the On-level at the device or a scene? Whichever you're using try the other.

[Wingsy]

It was so spooky that I gave up on that method of doing what I want and I'm trying something else, but I do appreciate your reply. (I think I must have been using the correct thing or I wouldn't have gotten the correct response for settings of 1% to 100%.)

You wanna know what I'm trying to do? I'll tell ya...

I'm revisiting my stairway lights and my garage door & driveway lights, trying to do something, anything, different from my old ways in an effort to shake this $#&%@ curse of the ALL-ON event. It's too early to tell but maybe, just maybe, the garage/driveway may stop being one source. In that scenario I got my IOLinc moved into a scene as recommended by someone somewhere. We'll see.

My requirement for both the stairway and driveway lights is that they come on right now when triggered by a sensor. Not 1 second or 3 seconds later. That rules out using a program for turning them on, but can be used for turning them off a minute or so later. My driveway lights use an IOLinc sensor in the garage (triggered by underground coil & detector) to trigger a scene containing an ON-OFF module also in the garage that controls the driveway lights and to an inline dimmer in the rock columns at the end of the driveway which light the column lights and another IOLinc relay in the house which controls a chime device. An ISY program turns the ON-OFF module and inline dimmer off and the IOLinc relay delay controls the duration of the chime. The garage door is sensed with an OPEN-CLOSE sensor & magnetic switch, which lights a salt-rock light in the kitchen via a plug-in dimmer. The IOLinc relay in the garage is wired to the garage door switch which I sometimes control via my iPhone.

This works fairly well (assuming no more ALL-ON events) most of the time, but occasionally I still see the driveway lights coming on when I'm well into the driveway and about 1 out of 50 times they don't come on at all. It's not consistently instant. Another thing that I don't like about the setup is that I wanted the lights to only come on during the night. They come on all the time but the ISY program turns them back off as fast as it can during the day and at night it leaves them on for 5 minutes. Not exactly what I want but I guess I can live with it.

My stairway is much simpler in that all I want to do is to turn on the stairways lights when someone steps on the top or bottom step (via 2 IR beam sensors). Again, they need to come on right now when someone enters the stairway, and every single time. Kinda rules out Insteon, huh?   I'm working on this right now and have things in a state of limbo at the moment. I'll be using a latching relay to get the lights on immediately and an IOLinc to turn them off and unlatch the relay. I think.

[stusviews]

Concerning the stairs, I use Insteon motion sensors (the original) in locations precisely where it's important the the light turns on instantly. A second later is too late. The MS is set to send On-commands only. Also, the MS is set to Night Only. If you're using more than one sensor, then each must be set to those conditions. I set the Darkness sensitivity to 5. You may want a different value.

A program turns the light off. But, I don't get why you need to set the local level to 0% at all.

[Wingsy]

I was setting the local level to 0% in an attempt to prevent my driveway lights from coming on briefly during the day. That wasn't for my stairway.

And my stairway... I never wanted a couple of motion sensors sticking out from a wall in/near the stairs, so when the house was built 3 years ago I had 2 IR beam sensors embedded into the wall. Also people walk right by the top of the stairs constantly so I thought that adjusting a motion sensor to only detect when someone stepped on the top or bottom step would be problematic at best.

The bottom IR beam sensor is that black object in the wall. The embedded LEDs come on instantly and the overhead recessed lights come on when the ISY gets around to turning them on. Right now this is working fine up until the IOLinc that's involved in this decides to not come on at all. At least when that happens the lights fail latched on. (That IOLinc is located under the stairs in the mechanical room right next to the PLM and is on the same circuit, so if it's a comm issue then I may have deeper troubles.)

[stusviews]

How are you integrating the IR beam sensor with the ISY? Why are you using an I/O Linc at all? What triggers the I/O Linc?

[Wingsy]

The IOLinc sensor is triggered by the stairway sensor (indirectly, through relay contacts activated by the stairway sensor).

Attached is the schematic of the entire stairway.

Now it may seem like a lot to have to go through just to light a light, but what I want is:

1. Instant activation of stairway lights when someone steps on the top or bottom step.

2. On time of lights controlled by an ISY program.

3. Re-triggerable, so if a 2nd person enters the stairway while the lights are on due to the 1st person, then they get the full duration of the on-time of the lights.

There are actually 2 sets of lights for the stairway. The embedded LEDs in the wall are what needs to come on quickly. There are also 2 overhead lights, a sconce at the top of the stairs and a recessed light in the ceiling at the bottom. Those 2 lights turn on via the ISY program and it's OK for them to come on seconds after the LEDs (which happens since they are controlled via the ISY). They are intended to provide light in the room at the top and the bottom of the stairs, and give enough light long enough for someone to either pass through those rooms or to find a light switch if they intend to stay in that room.

The way I have it wired works exactly like I want, right up until the IOLinc relay fails to activate when the ISY program runs. When that happens the relay never unlatches and the LEDs stay on forever, or until I manually activate the IOLinc briefly.

Generally the way it works is, (1) stairway sensor activates which closes the relay and the relay latches on, lighting the LEDs and triggering the ISY via the IOLinc sensor input. (2) IOLinc relay closes via ISY which takes over lighting the LEDs and unlatches the relay. (3) After 45 seconds (or something) the ISY opens the IOLinc relay, turning off the lights and allowing the external relay to latch again. Notice that while the ISY is timing out the 45 seconds, the program can be re-triggered if the stairway sensor energizes the external relay again. 

This would be simpler if only the IOLinc relay could be triggered by its own sensor and not turn off when the sensor input goes away. What I tried to do was to set the IOLinc timeout to 30 minutes, then have it triggered by the stairway sensor (the IOLInc sensor closing the IOLinc relay), and after 45 seconds or so have an ISY program turn off the IOLinc relay prior to its timeout. That doesn't work because as soon as the person's foot leaves the 1st step the IOLinc relay goes off. This is what drove me to use a relay configured to latch itself on. (I had to use a relay anyway since the IOLinc sensor needs a hard closure and the stairway IR sensor only goes to 0.7v when on.)

 

[stusviews]

I'm not sure why you need closure for both the NO and NC contacts on the I/O Linc. Won't activating the C-1 relay contacts cause the I/O Linc to complete the circuit between NO and COM which, in turn, turns on the LEDs?

And if closing the relay on the I/O Linc turns on the LEDs, then why do you need a program for that?

 

[Wingsy]

10 hours ago, stusviews said:

I'm not sure why you need closure for both the NO and NC contacts on the I/O Linc. Won't activating the C-1 relay contacts cause the I/O Linc to complete the circuit between NO and COM which, in turn, turns on the LEDs?

Yes it does, but the NC contact unlatches the ext relay so it can respond to a 2nd person entering the stairway prior to timeout. 

And if closing the relay on the I/O Linc turns on the LEDs, then why do you need a program for that?

Because 30 seconds is too short and 30 minutes is way too long. The IOLinc can only time out after 1-30 seconds or after 30 minutes. Plus, it's not re-triggerable.

 

I've noticed that in the two places I have IOLincs and ISY programs involved together, it's a source of the ALL-ON events I'm having. I have about 10 programs triggered from other devices and controlling things other than an IOLinc and they run several times daily. No ALL-ON events from them.

So right now I'm leaning towards using a plug-in dimmer or ON-OFF module to get a signal into the ISY, using a very small solid state relay that I'll embed into the dimmer. I'll connect it to the dimmer's UP and/or DOWN buttons, and control it with a signal I'll generate when activated by the IR sensors. The dimmer's switched AC will power the AC adapter that runs the LEDs, and the ISY program will still control the off time as well as the overhead lights. No IOLinc in that kluge. Yes I admit that it's a kluge, but I'm determined to get this working just the way I want it AND to cure the ALL-ON event disease. One way or another the ALL-ON event must go. You would understand why if you were here the first time we had one. Actually I still chuckle every time I think about it..... Wife, alone in the house at night, watching TV... I pull into the driveway... driveway alert goes off, all doors unlock (you know what that sounds like?), all ceiling fans come on, garage door opens, and the main event: the gas logs come on with a big "whoosh" sound and a blaze right in front of her. She got a bit excited and threatened me with solitary confinement if I didn't fix it or return it. (well not really but almost.)

[larryllix]

This sounds like you are following the sensor signal sent from the ioLink with an immediate relay signal to keep the LEDs on. This is known source of all-on problems.

I will have to redraw the circuit as a proper schematic to see your logic flow.

[Wingsy]

"...as a proper schematic..."   OK

In my garage I have one IOLinc. It's Sense input is from a magnetic reed switch on the door that I use to activate a lamp in the kitchen. That's all it does. The relay side of that IOLinc I use to open/close the garage door via my iPhone (seldom used). I get ALL-ONs when the garage door is opened and I'm not using both sensor & relay of the IOLinc at the same time. But it is true that in the stairway I am doing that. That's going to change.

I'm going to change my stairway to this:

1. Re-triggerable delay relay triggered by the IR sensors. That relay stays energized while the IR signal is present (a foot on the step) and starts timing out when the signal terminates. Found some in China dirt cheap ($7 for 3)

 https://www.banggood.com/5V-30V-Wide-Voltage-Trigger-Delay-Timer-Relay-Conduction-Relay-Module-Time-Delay-Switch-p-1158433.html?cur_warehouse=CN

2. The NO contacts on that relay will connect to the sensor of an IOLinc, set for "relay follows input".  That will also trigger a scene containing my overhead lights so they're on when the relay is on. An occasional delay there won't matter.

3. The IOLinc relay will control the LEDs, and no ONs or OFFs will ever be sent from the ISY.

The time the stairway lights will stay on will be controlled by adjusting the delay time of the external relay. That's easy enough to do so that's OK.

If I still get ALL-ON events doing it this way I'll remove the scene for the overheard lights. If I still get them I'll try removing the IOLinc from the PLM. If I still get them I'll remove the IOLinc entirely and use it for target practice.

Doing what I want would be really simple if only the IOLinc would trigger from an ON event from its sensor and ignore OFF events, and be retriggerable. I'd use a motion sensor if it had external trigger inputs. It does what I want (I think).

[larryllix]

OK. I have resketched your combination diagram to show the scheme and better understand what you are doing.

 

You have a slight shortage of contacts on K1 relay and require diodes to share contacts on the IOLinc and K1 relay.:)
AFAICT this should work just fine as your K1 relay sees the sensor and seals itself in until the IOLinc transfers the seal-in from it's own (K1) contact to the IOLinc N.O. contact.

I see no problems with this circuit except some concerns

• is the contact rating of the IOLinc sufficient to carry the current of the LED lighting? The Relay K1 makes the initial surge portion but the IOLinc has to carry the load current and break it. Breaking it shouldn't be a problem on a bunch of LEDs without counterEMF if they are sufficient to carry it while running.
• You have your IOLinc divided into two completely separate functions that don't interact. (I don't know the setting jargon)
• ISY sensing a signal from an IOLinc and immediately sending a command back to the same device can cause the ALL-ON phenomenon (allegedly)

.Since the K1 relay contact seals itself in, the ISY program to transfer the seal-in to the other IOLinc contact (N.C. to N.O.)  should not need to rush and I would advise you to install a Wait 2 seconds into the program that responds to the IOLinc and then times the circuit off later. 

 

Something like this

If
....control IOLinc is switched On

Then
....Wait 2 seconds
.... set IOLinc to On
....Wait 2 minutes
....set IOLinc to Off

Else
....(empty)

 

Try it and see what you think.

Edited March 15, 2018 by larryllix

[Wingsy]

I used to have a delay back when there was no scene involved. I had a 3 second delay followed by turning on the IOLinc relay, and that was repeated 3 times (trying to fix the occasional problem of the IOLinc not responding). 45 seconds later I also had a  3-Repeat loop to turn it off with a 3 second delay between tries. Still got ALL-ONs from the turn-on and maybe very infrequently from the turn-off. (My observer lost patience observing these things a long time ago.)

Relay contacts rated at 2A. 7 LEDs @20ma each is 0.14A. There is no surge current in these LEDs - just LEDs with series resistors.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Wingsy

[larryllix]

Here is what I reformatted to....Stu may be interested also.

 

[larryllix]

21 minutes ago, Wingsy said:

I used to have a delay back when there was no scene involved. I had a 3 second delay followed by turning on the IOLinc relay, and that was repeated 3 times (trying to fix the occasional problem of the IOLinc not responding). 45 seconds later I also had a  3-Repeat loop to turn it off with a 3 second delay between tries. Still got ALL-ONs from the turn-on and maybe very infrequently from the turn-off. (My observer lost patience observing these things a long time ago.)

These things can be frustrating, for sure. It may not be related to what you are doing and about a defective IOLinc causing erroneous signals. I don't believe the signal is an ALL-ON Insteon signal but rather a  Insteon Scene signal that may contain most devices. I had an OnOff Module that was sending out a particular scene on occasionally instead of an ACK when I turn it on.

For a year or more  I noticed a recognisable pattern of lights on when I would come home and always thought it was my bad programming doing it for my "come-home" algorithm. Most lights were dimmed to various levels which match one of my Scenes I had set up. When I looked at the error logs, I mostly found my humidifier had  just turned on and it logged an error instead of an ACK back. I simply power cycled the plug-in OnOff Module and it went away after about a year of frustration .Now it has been about another year and it has never happened again.

These Insteon devices are just computer programs running on a microcontroller, and a run-away program can send anything out.IMHO  Insteon scenes can be especially dangerous as they are too easily sent by bad devices and without fully understanding the process, have very little checking involved.

 

With all that said. Have you tried replacing the IOLinc? Factory Resetting it? Was it factory reset from new before connecting to ISY?

Edited March 15, 2018 by larryllix

[Wingsy]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

With all that said. Have you tried replacing the IOLinc? Factory Resetting it? Was it factory rest from new before connecting to ISY?

I don't think I've ever replaced it, but way back when I first started working on the stairs I know I did a factory reset at least once after convincing myself I had a flaky unit that did not do what I understood the IOLinc "Options" should do. Since my driveway lighting has a similar setup and also uses an IOLinc I've always assumed the ALL-ON was just a bug somewhere that was triggered by any IOLinc.

Way back before the house was built I bought about 10 various Insteon devices and tested them thoroughly before I committed to installing about 90 of these things throughout the house. And today I'd say I have about 85 that work perfectly every single time. But just think... I was planning on putting my well pump on an Insteon switch! I'm glad I waited on that one.

I'll post a drawing soon of that time delay relay approach I'm planning on. I'd like to hear feedback from you and Stu. And I appreciate you and Stu taking the time to critique my setup and making suggestions.

[larryllix]

I don't think I've ever replaced it, but way back when I first started working on the stairs I know I did a factory reset at least once after convincing myself I had a flaky unit that did not do what I understood the IOLinc "Options" should do. Since my driveway lighting has a similar setup and also uses an IOLinc I've always assumed the ALL-ON was just a bug somewhere that was triggered by any IOLinc.
Way back before the house was built I bought about 10 various Insteon devices and tested them thoroughly before I committed to installing about 90 of these things throughout the house. And today I'd say I have about 85 that work perfectly every single time. But just think... I was planning on putting my well pump on an Insteon switch! I'm glad I waited on that one.
I'll post a drawing soon of that time delay relay approach I'm planning on. I'd like to hear feedback from you and Stu. And I appreciate you and Stu taking the time to critique my setup and making suggestions.

It bothers me that your circuit idea isn't working and I can't formulate a possible reason why. It should work fine.

I have a few ioLincs and the one for the garage door has flakey comms occasionally. They are not dual band.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[Wingsy]

 

I think this is about as simple as it's going to get, doing what I want. 

IR stairway sensor triggers the time delay relay (TDR). IOLinc relay lights the stairway LEDs. Time delay restarts if TDR is triggered while timing out. IOLinc Sense input triggers a scene with the overhead lights. No ISY program needed.

I would use just the TDR but I also need a way to trigger a scene for the overhead lights, hence the IOLinc. And I can't use the TDR relay to both light the LEDs and trigger the IOLinc since one circuit is 12v and the other is 5v, so that's why the IOLinc relay does the LEDs.

[larryllix]

15 hours ago, Wingsy said:

I don't think I've ever replaced it, but way back when I first started working on the stairs I know I did a factory reset at least once after convincing myself I had a flaky unit that did not do what I understood the IOLinc "Options" should do. Since my driveway lighting has a similar setup and also uses an IOLinc I've always assumed the ALL-ON was just a bug somewhere that was triggered by any IOLinc.

Way back before the house was built I bought about 10 various Insteon devices and tested them thoroughly before I committed to installing about 90 of these things throughout the house. And today I'd say I have about 85 that work perfectly every single time. But just think... I was planning on putting my well pump on an Insteon switch! I'm glad I waited on that one.

I'll post a drawing soon of that time delay relay approach I'm planning on. I'd like to hear feedback from you and Stu. And I appreciate you and Stu taking the time to critique my setup and making suggestions.

Based on the clues given that turning the IOLinc On and off can give All-On problems and that yhe IOLinc contacts are break before make, I would say your snubber diode across K1 is not performing well enough. It seems the counterEMF spike is driving the IOLInc around the bend causing it to issue these erroneous signals as it reboots/crashes internally.

I would be scoping this, or  at least trying to improve that part of the circuit with a series blocking diode, replacing the snubber diode, or adding a parallel despiking disc cap accross K1. The IOLInc contacts are only rated at 30v and the relay is running at 12vdc.

Edited March 16, 2018 by larryllix

[larryllix]

12 minutes ago, Wingsy said:

 

I think this is about as simple as it's going to get, doing what I want. 

IR stairway sensor triggers the time delay relay (TDR). IOLinc relay lights the stairway LEDs. Time delay restarts if TDR is triggered while timing out. IOLinc Sense input triggers a scene with the overhead lights. No ISY program needed.

I would use just the TDR but I also need a way to trigger a scene for the overhead lights, hence the IOLinc. And I can't use the TDR relay to both light the LEDs and trigger the IOLinc since one circuit is 12v and the other is 5v, so that's why the IOLinc relay does the LEDs.

Can you not just eliminate the timer relay all togther. If the IOLinc can handle the LED current directly, and the IOLinc is set for it's contacts to follow the input, then you should have no ISY Insteon signal delay. This is provided you can adapt the sensor to the IOLinc input.

Edited March 16, 2018 by larryllix

[Wingsy]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

Can you not just eliminate the timer relay all togther. If the IOLinc can handle the LED current directly, and the IOLinc is set for it's contacts to follow the input, then you should have no ISY Insteon signal delay. This is provided you can adapt the senor to the IOLinc input.

Well the problem with that is, if the relay follows input and the input is straight from the stairway sensor, the LEDs would go off when a foot leaves the step.

[larryllix]

Just now, Wingsy said:

Well the problem with that is, if the relay follows input and the input is straight from the stairway sensor, the LEDs would go off when a foot leaves the step.

I haven't ever used an IOLInc with output following the input but can you not override the Off cycle with the ISY program?

How long does the sensor pulse last? Maybe a small RC/diode network on the input? Possible a feedback loop to make it latch? I would have to study the follow me options in the IOLinc to see what they are capable of.

[Wingsy]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

I haven't ever used an IOLInc with output following the input but can you not override the Off cycle with the ISY program?

How long does the sensor pulse last? Maybe a small RC/diode network on the input? Possible a feedback loop to make it latch? I would have to study the follow me options in the IOLinc to see what they are capable of.

Yes, an ISY program will turn off the IOLinc relay even when set to Relay Follows Input and the input is still active. But of course the IOLinc relay will also go off when the Sense signal goes away, which it would do when a foot leaves the step. (The IR stairway sensor is ON when the beam is broken and OFF otherwise.)

[larryllix]

24 minutes ago, Wingsy said:

Yes, an ISY program will turn off the IOLinc relay even when set to Relay Follows Input and the input is still active. But of course the IOLinc relay will also go off when the Sense signal goes away, which it would do when a foot leaves the step. (The IR stairway sensor is ON when the beam is broken and OFF otherwise.)

The manual I have is not very good with descriptions of how the sensor to Insteon logic works.

The only idea I can see is, use the IOLinc alone, in the Momentary A mode (monostable mode) with a 1-2 minute timer settiing, and hope that ISY could possibly retrigger the monostable timer with a program hitting on the timer every say 30 seconds until the desired time is reached. Otherwise, the monostable timer may be enough without an ISY off timer program.

IIRC it also has a mode that is supposed to ignore any Off signals from Insteon but no mention of what the sensor input Off will do to it.

 

Did you see my thoughts on K1 snubbing above?

Edited March 16, 2018 by larryllix

[Wingsy]

12 minutes ago, larryllix said:

The manual I have is not very good with descriptions of how the sensor to Insteon logic works.

The only idea I can see is, use the IOLinc alone, in the Momentary A mode (monostable mode) with a 1-2 minute timer settiing, and hope that ISY could possibly retrigger the monostable timer with a program hitting on the timer every say 30 seconds until the desired time is reached. Otherwise, the monostable timer may be enough without an ISY off timer program.

IIRC it also has a mode that is supposed to ignore any Off signals from Insteon but no mention of what the sensor input Off will do to it.

Well, they DO mention what an OFF command will do. They say it will be ignored but that is definitely not true. If the Sense input goes OFF while the IOLInc is timing out, it goes OFF. I started off down this road a long time ago believing what I read in the manual, and that is why I wear a helmet whenever I start fooling around with an IOLinc. It doesn't hurt as much when I bang my head against the wall.

From the manual:

Momentary A

Either an ON or OFF command can be programmed to trigger the I/O Linc relay. The other command will be ignored. For example, if an ON command is programmed to trigger the relay, an OFF command will be ignored.

BS

I'm going to start another thread to talk about exactly what an IOLinc will do. I've got one here in front of me with a toggle switch connected to the Sense input and the ISY console running on my computer. First I'll try all combinations of the Options screen and report the results of what I get. (I've done this before.)

Should I start that thread here or in the Insteon forums?

Edited March 16, 2018 by Wingsy