Tesla ~ Second Automated Death

[Teken]

This will be the second time a Tesla driver has died because they failed to do the only thing when behind the wheel ~ DRIVE.

https://www.ft.com/content/aa8fdab8-34cd-11e8-8b98-2f31af407cc8

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43604440

As noted in this Uber thread where another person died because once again the Human behind the wheel was NOT driving. The argument from some is this technology will make the roads safer in time. While I am totally a fan of high tech and automation my belief is there are core infrastructure elements required to make this happen ~ safely. The death of the Tesla driver is once again a perfect example of how this technology will be abused by the lazy and ultimately will kill others on the road. 

 

[lilyoyo1]

Tesla's aren't self driving cars and aren't meant to replace drivers like Uber, google and other companies are trying to do. The driver completely ignored what the system was designed to do. I don't blame the system. I blame the driver.

[Teken]

27 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Tesla's aren't self driving cars and aren't meant to replace drivers like Uber, google and other companies are trying to do. The driver completely ignored what the system was designed to do. I don't blame the system. I blame the driver.

Exactly, but in this case it highlights what these lazy folks have and will continue to do with such technology. This will be abused by the masses and this small sample is the perfect example of such. If you market something to do X someone will try to do Y with it and in this case the results can be deadly.

If someone intends to be behind the DRIVERS SEAT ~ Well drive!

There is zero chance anyone will be 100% focused on that task when the person who sold you that new toy says it can get you from A to B without your input. When Ford / Honda first came out with the automated parallel parking I said the exact same thing.

Unskilled, lazy, incompetent fools which should never have received a drivers license . . .

Fast forward eight years later the market has pushed stupid to a whole new level of lazy . . . I expect to see more fatalities in this area in the not too distant future unless the powers that be grab a freaking brain and say basic infrastructure must be in place. As an aside, Tesla has achieved incredible things in many spaces and I have no doubt if he decided to push automated vehicles he would lead the way.

But, his position that such vehicles have saved more lives vs cost lives is pure horse sh^t . . . There are zero stats because there aren't any mass produced vehicles doing this even his own cars as they can't say Tesla vehicles are safer because the working sample when compared to regular vehicles is 0.000000000000000000000001%  

[asbril]

There is a world of difference between the Ford T, the Tesla of today and the self driving car of tomorrow. Same as the difference between the original typewriter, the IBM Selectric typewriter, and the computers of today. It is called evolution.

Of course no human lives lost in the evolution of typewriters, but the needed infrastructure technologies mentioned by Teken will come to existence and there will be far fewer accidents with self-driving cars than with human-driven cars.

[BCreekDave]

There is a world of difference between the Ford T, the Tesla of today and the self driving car of tomorrow. Same as the difference between the original typewriter, the IBM Selectric typewriter, and the computers of today. It is called evolution.
Of course no human lives lost in the evolution of typewriters, but the needed infrastructure technologies mentioned by Teken will come to existence and there will be far fewer accidents with self-driving cars than with human-driven cars.

True. EVENTUALLY!
For now there is a mad rush by the automakers to get there first and in their haste they are risking lives with a clearly immature technology. They should implement the current suite of sensors but still have the human drive the car. Then let the engineers constantly review the sensor logs to see how the computer would have handled all the edge cases. When the sensors and controls do a superior job to the human in all cases under all weather conditions over a period of say 5 years then roll it out like it is today where there is still a human monitor. Until then, everyone on the road is their test dummies.


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[asbril]

4 minutes ago, BCreekDave said:

True. EVENTUALLY!
For now there is a mad rush by the automakers to get there first and in their haste they are risking lives with a clearly immature technology. They should implement the current suite of sensors but still have the human drive the car. Then let the engineers constantly review the sensor logs to see how the computer would have handled all the edge cases. When the sensors and controls do a superior job to the human in all cases under all weather conditions over a period of say 5 years then roll it out like it is today where there is still a human monitor. Until then, everyone on the road is their test dummies.


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Indeed. I have never said that we will soon be ready for self-driving cars. All I have stated is that we WILL get there and that it will  require new technologies and learn from failures and accidents.

[mitchmitchell]

Indeed. I have never said that we will soon be ready for self-driving cars. All I have stated is that we WILL get there and that it will  require new technologies and learn from failures and accidents.

I am definitely ready for self driving cars, but not as an alpha tester lol. Despite what Teken says, it's not laziness but a desire to have a few hours of my day back to do other (cyberspace) things - like programming my home automation system:-).

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[Mustang65]

I believe an industry that the self-driving cars is paralleling is the aviation industry. Look at where they both started, in someone's garage and then took them public. I would be the first to say that both have come a long way since inception, but one managed to get to where it is today with a lot of military innovation, unlike the automobile. Up until now, most of the car purchases were based on getting you from point "A" to point "B", with just a LITTLE comfort. Now, people want more and do not even think about the level of where the technology is at, they take it for granted that it will protect them in a time of need.

Here are some aviation numbers that are interesting. Granted they are not related pilot-less problems, but I would say that technology played the biggest part in the decline.

As we are adding more technology, radar, 360 vision, GPS......., and incorporate them into the cars, I can see the numbers dropping as in the aviation industry.

 http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingdotcom/company/about_bca/pdf/statsum.pdf

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/03/01/how-many-plane-crashes-have-there-ever-been/#6f644f457f34

 

[Teken]

There is no middle ground for me with respect to the so called *Self Driving Car*. If the car indeed is capable of self driving a person from A - B the person is inherently (A) Passenger. If the same person is behind the wheel of a vehicle that by default makes them *THE DRIVER*. If people are so sure this can be done safely we will dispense with the whole sending the infant in the airplane / automated vehicle.

We all know the answer to that simple question ~ Won't happen . . .

Take the same people who purports to believe this technology at what ever time in the future is ready for prime time. I can say with a high level of confidence not a soul will be sitting in the back seat or in the passenger side.

Those that do, lack the understanding that their lives are completely at risk and I can assure each and every one of you today. The insurance for said vehicle will be double if not triple when compared to a standard human driven vehicle. Just these three incidents have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt my position that humans by their very nature become complacent when they *Believe* something / someone is doing X. The lack of critical thinking / common sense by the two Tesla drivers affirms this position I hold. 

In each incident the vehicle informed the DRIVER to pay attention and grab the freaking wheel. Yet, both of these individuals decided it was a waste of their time and it was better to chat, watch a movie, read some emails, to X.

The end result ~ pancake time . . .

Ultimately, for me this isn't something I will ever have to worry about living in this back woods hick town. The roads, weather, and people are too much for any automated vehicle never mind an electric car.

My 2018 prediction is we shall see 1 ~2 more of these incidents . . .  

 

[mitchmitchell]

There is no middle ground for me with respect to the so called *Self Driving Car*. If the car indeed is capable of self driving a person from A - B the person is inherently (A) Passenger. If the same person is behind the wheel of a vehicle that by default makes them *THE DRIVER*. If people are so sure this can be done safely we will dispense with the whole sending the infant in the airplane / automated vehicle.
We all know the answer to that simple question ~ Won't happen . . .
Take the same people who purports to believe this technology at what ever time in the future is ready for prime time. I can say with a high level of confidence not a soul will be sitting in the back seat or in the passenger side.
Those that do, lack the understanding that their lives are completely at risk and I can assure each and every one of you today. The insurance for said vehicle will be double if not triple when compared to a standard human driven vehicle. Just these three incidents have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt my position that humans by their very nature become complacent when they *Believe* something / someone is doing X. The lack of critical thinking / common sense by the two Tesla drivers affirms this position I hold. 
In each incident the vehicle informed the DRIVER to pay attention and grab the freaking wheel. Yet, both of these individuals decided it was a waste of their time and it was better to chat, watch a movie, read some emails, to X.
The end result ~ pancake time . . .
Ultimately, for me this isn't something I will ever have to worry about living in this back woods hick town. The roads, weather, and people are too much for any automated vehicle never mind an electric car.
My 2018 prediction is we shall see 1 ~2 more of these incidents . . .  
 

Teken you do know that the first major deployment of self driving vehicles will be military supply trucks. I'm sure handling rough terrain will be in the plans. I do agree that anything less than 'rider is passenger ' is really only enhanced cruise control and still requires driver awareness. Don't mistake my desire for a self driving car as a willingness to plunge into it recklessly, but I do have a strong lack of confidence in the average human driver.

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[Teken]

Just now, mitchmitchell said:

Teken you do know that the first major deployment of self driving vehicles will be military supply trucks. I'm sure handling rough terrain will be in the plans. I do agree that anything less than 'rider is passenger ' is really only enhanced cruise control and still requires driver awareness. Don't mistake my desire for a self driving car as a willingness to plunge into it recklessly, but I do have a strong lack of confidence in the average human driver.

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LOL . . . 

Come to Canada and you will see all manners of people who *Think* their driving skizzs are epic.  

 

[asbril]

Teken, let's meet in 25 years and review our posts . The future is likely to be different from what we predict. In the 1950's, some imagined that by the year 2000 there would be flying cars all over !   In this forum we are posting not much more than our beliefs on the topic.

My belief is very different from yours, in as much as I see us being very comfortable as passengers in self-driving cars, traveling at higher speeds with far less traffic and much lower insurance rates. We may not even own our own cars because the 'pleasure'  of driving will no longer exist. No more garages and large parkings.

Cars will be more like moving living rooms or offices, allowing us to work while on the move, or watch the third series of Roseanne.

[Teken]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

Teken, let's meet in 25 years and review our posts . The future is likely to be different from what we predict. In the 1950's, some imagined that by the year 2000 there would be flying cars all over !   In this forum we are posting not much more than our beliefs on the topic.

My belief is very different from yours, in as much as I see us being very comfortable as passengers in self-driving cars, traveling at higher speeds with far less traffic and much lower insurance rates. We may not even own our own cars because the 'pleasure'  of driving will no longer exist. No more garages and large parkings.

Cars will be more like moving living rooms or offices, allowing us to work while on the move, or watch the third series of Roseanne.

I hope we break bread, before the 25 year mark my friend! 

[oberkc]

For the record, I dont believe this is the second automation death.  I recall that a tesla model S had such an incident a while back.  Something about a white semi truck?

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/06/tesla-model-s-warned-driver-in-fatal-crash-to-put-hands-on-steering-wheel/

That is at least three.

[mitchmitchell]

Yes, three deaths that I have heard of for auto/semi?-automated driving.   I think the DOT in the US tracks fatalities per miles driven for human driven vehicles, looks like they will need to start tracking it for automated driving as well.  Self driving cars won't be ready for prime time until those trend lines cross definitively  (once enough automated miles have been driven).

2 hours ago, Teken said:

LOL . . . 

Come to Canada and you will see all manners of people who *Think* their driving skizzs are epic.  

 

Teken -- an RV trip through Canada is on our bucket list so I will get to experience those drivers in a few years.  We will definitely be driving manually though!

 

[mitchmitchell]

2 hours ago, asbril said:

Teken, let's meet in 25 years and review our posts . The future is likely to be different from what we predict. In the 1950's, some imagined that by the year 2000 there would be flying cars all over !   In this forum we are posting not much more than our beliefs on the topic.

My belief is very different from yours, in as much as I see us being very comfortable as passengers in self-driving cars, traveling at higher speeds with far less traffic and much lower insurance rates. We may not even own our own cars because the 'pleasure'  of driving will no longer exist. No more garages and large parkings.

Cars will be more like moving living rooms or offices, allowing us to work while on the move, or watch the third series of Roseanne.

Take a look at the archives of Risks-Digest for a discussion and predictions of disaster and mayhem that accompanied the introduction of Fly-by-Wire on the Airbus A380 (I think it was).  In the end I think there was only one accident attributed to the computer system but it was around the user interface confusing the pilots and causing them to take incorrect action I believe. 

I seem to remember discussions about the risks of introducing ABS brakes, some folks thought that drivers would tend to push things more closer to the limits knowing they could "rely" on ABS to avoid a skid.   Those discussions didn't take into account the number of other drivers that didn't think about things at all and just stomped on the brakes - I think the saving of drivers with that behavior totally eclipsed any that took more risks due to ABS systems (but I am relying on rusty memory here).

[mitchmitchell]

For the US I believe this is the relevant table, 1.18 fatalities per 100 million miles traveled in 2016, I could not find any consolidated stats on autonomous miles driven but they are still under a million I think.

 

[asbril]

https://nyti.ms/2IiXLCA

Fatal Tesla Crash Raises New Questions About Autopilot System

[Mustang65]

I believe that the Airbus issue was related to the problem that the 2 separate joy sticks were not communicating with each other as to its position or something like that

[asbril]

1 hour ago, Mustang65 said:

I believe that the Airbus issue was related to the problem that the 2 separate joy sticks were not communicating with each other as to its position or something like that

Before 9/11, I was on a Airbus flight from Moscow to Paris and when I asked the pilot to visit the cabin, he invited me to sit in the cabin for the remainder of the flight. I remember seeing the pilots using the joy stick, which reminded me of my old Microsoft Flight Simulator.

I do remember that a Airbus accident at a French Airshow was caused by the pilot not taking into account the time lapse between moving the joystick and the actual reaction of the plane engines. He was flying low as part of the airshow, did not climb fast enough and crashed into trees.

[larryllix]

Then there was  the Golden Hawks.  A five jet team that did airshows in Canada each year. The leader flew into the ground at a demo and they rest followed in formation.

[mitchmitchell]

I'm clearly mis-remembering, as Wikipedia indicates the A380 has had no hull loss accidents or fatalities as of 2017. I think it was the A320, and the accident I was thinking of was Air Inter Flight 148.

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[oberkc]

I don't think there has been any A380 hull loss accidents ever.  It is still a pretty new airplane.

I also recall the one going into the trees as an A320

[asbril]

41 minutes ago, oberkc said:

I don't think there has been any A380 hull loss accidents ever.  It is still a pretty new airplane.

I also recall the one going into the trees as an A320

And if not mistaken, a A340 between Rio de Janeiro and Paris

[elvisimprsntr]

You think autonomous driving is scary? The next generation traffic control system is omnidirectional, un-authenticated, unsigned, unencrypted clear text air-to-ground and air-to-air communication. It has already been determined to have vulnerabilities. Anyone with a SDR can receive the signals. It doesn’t to take much more to send signals.

 

https://www.wired.com/2012/07/adsb-spoofing/