Looking for Insteon temperature probe solution

[Jay]

 

Here’s the problem: I have a gas fired hot water tank that every so often has the pilot light blown out by wind or doors closed too quickly.

 

I’d like to have a metal probe temp sensor attached to the exhaust pipe that is always at a warm temperature from the pilot light, or hot temperature when the burners are on (not a plastic probe as it’d melt).

 

If I had some method of being alerted brought the ISY when the temp drops below warm I could get the pilot back on before the hot water cools off.

 

 

Any ideas? Or alternate ideas?

 

 

Thx!

 

 

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[larryllix]

CAO wireless tags have units with cheap probes and are very reliable and easy to integrate with ISY

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[paulbates]

Agree on cao as relatively easy to integrate, but what is your upper temp when it’s full on, so thst can be compared to cao specs / limits?

 

 

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[Jay]

Excellent, thank you. Those wireless tags look like a great solution.


The idea I have is to attach a probe (like metal meat thermometer type) to the exhaust vent stack for the hot water tank and set a program to alert if the temperature drops below say 70F (because the pilot blew out) I get an alert tonrelight before the tank temp drops significantly.

When the hot water tank is in heat cycle the upper temp is around 200F. It would melt a plastic probe, hence my desire for a metal probe.


Was the wireless tag probe solution you were thinking the outdoor model DS18B20?


Thanks!




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[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Excellent, thank you. Those wireless tags look like a great solution.


The idea I have is to attach a probe (like metal meat thermometer type) to the exhaust vent stack for the hot water tank and set a program to alert if the temperature drops below say 70F (because the pilot blew out) I get an alert tonrelight before the tank temp drops significantly.

When the hot water tank is in heat cycle the upper temp is around 200F. It would melt a plastic probe, hence my desire for a metal probe.


Was the wireless tag probe solution you were thinking the outdoor model DS18B20?


Thanks!




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Yes. It is a sealed metal encapsulated DS18B20 chip.  They are available for about 99 cents each on eBay etc...
IIRC the CAO unit is more money but comes with a convenient mini plug-in jack for the plastic Tag part.

[Jay]

 

Thanks LarryLix.  

 

I'm a Canadian as well, do you get your tags directly from the on-line CAO store or is there a better distribution channel for Canada?

 

This would be a new install so here's what I was going to get if I understand your suggestion correctly:

 

One Ethernet Manager:

https://wirelesstags.myshopify.com/products/ethernet-tag-manager

 

One Outdoor probe with K-Type Thermocouple for 0°C-400°C ($69USD, to be clear on probe type)

https://store.wirelesstag.net/products/outdoor-probe-thermocouple?variant=15374029684838

 

 

Thanks!

 

[mwester]

(Caveat: I've spent my career closely associated with the "support" side of engineering, so it may be that I'm trained to be overly-concerned about safety and failure modes.)

I would NEVER EVER place ANYTHING in the flue of a gas-fired burner.  Never.  First, there's the safety part of this -- how can you be SURE that EVERY part (down to the epoxy used in the assembly) that you put into that flue is REALLY fire-proof?  Then, there's the reliability part of this -- the flue gases are primarily super-hot steam (think rust), but there's also a fair amount of corrosive (acidic) compounds in there as well.  The point being that anything placed in the flue needs to be designed specifically to handle that harsh environment -- and what I mean by that is not just reliability, but consider the failure modes as well (the mounting brackets fail, and part of the sensor falls down the flue -- where does it land, and if it lands in the burner, how might it alter/affect the burner, and could that cause fire, or other reliability issues?)

The root problem here is the answer the question "Is the pilot light lit?"  -- and that question must be answered by most appliances that have pilot lights, lest they leak fuel (natural gas, propane, heating oil) into the burner with no ignition possible.  The former two of those are usually handled by thermocouples in the pilot light -- that would be one avenue to pursue.  The latter is more interesting -- many oil-burning furnaces use an optical sensor that switches 24VAC (or even 120V) in order to ensure that the blower/pump that pumps the diesel fuel (heating oil is just un-taxed diesel!) doesn't operate unless the pilot is lit.  Here's some info on those units (I used to have one of these -- it was a horrifying machine, but astonishing in its reliability... none-the-less, I sleep better now without a gigantic jet-engine burner along with 275 gallons of diesel fuel in my basement!):  https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Cad_Cell_Relay_Reset_Button.php

I'd pursue the CAD cell and a matching relay/controller, connected to an Insteon IOLinc route -- safer.

[larryllix]

55 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Thanks LarryLix.  

 

I'm a Canadian as well, do you get your tags directly from the on-line CAO store or is there a better distribution channel for Canada?

 

This would be a new install so here's what I was going to get if I understand your suggestion correctly:

 

One Ethernet Manager:

https://wirelesstags.myshopify.com/products/ethernet-tag-manager

 

One Outdoor probe with K-Type Thermocouple for 0°C-400°C ($69USD, to be clear on probe type)

https://store.wirelesstag.net/products/outdoor-probe-thermocouple?variant=15374029684838

 

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. Most of us are Canadian where we have lighting and heating needs, unlike our U.S. brothers and sisters, where the sun never sets and it is always warm.   

I got mine all from the CAO online store but it seems like they are trying to distribute their sales to other venues. Try amazon.ca. I haven't seen them on aartech.ca yet but haven't looked either. 

My advice would be to at least one more Pro Tag (with 13 bit resolution and memory for months of data) because once set up you are going to like these. I have used a few to calibrate thermostats to the same offset, check duct temperatures and room temp. and humidity gradients for HVAC, outside weather, luminescence (not implemented in ISY programs yet), detection of the vehicle from 1/2 km.  down the road, and  many more things I can't even remember. I haven't implemented any motion detection with them but others have.

[Jay]

24 minutes ago, mwester said:

(Caveat: I've spent my career closely associated with the "support" side of engineering, so it may be that I'm trained to be overly-concerned about safety and failure modes.)

I would NEVER EVER place ANYTHING in the flue of a gas-fired burner.  Never.  First, there's the safety part of this -- how can you be SURE that EVERY part (down to the epoxy used in the assembly) that you put into that flue is REALLY fire-proof?  Then, there's the reliability part of this -- the flue gases are primarily super-hot steam (think rust), but there's also a fair amount of corrosive (acidic) compounds in there as well.  The point being that anything placed in the flue needs to be designed specifically to handle that harsh environment -- and what I mean by that is not just reliability, but consider the failure modes as well (the mounting brackets fail, and part of the sensor falls down the flue -- where does it land, and if it lands in the burner, how might it alter/affect the burner, and could that cause fire, or other reliability issues?)

The root problem here is the answer the question "Is the pilot light lit?"  -- and that question must be answered by most appliances that have pilot lights, lest they leak fuel (natural gas, propane, heating oil) into the burner with no ignition possible.  The former two of those are usually handled by thermocouples in the pilot light -- that would be one avenue to pursue.  The latter is more interesting -- many oil-burning furnaces use an optical sensor that switches 24VAC (or even 120V) in order to ensure that the blower/pump that pumps the diesel fuel (heating oil is just un-taxed diesel!) doesn't operate unless the pilot is lit.  Here's some info on those units (I used to have one of these -- it was a horrifying machine, but astonishing in its reliability... none-the-less, I sleep better now without a gigantic jet-engine burner along with 275 gallons of diesel fuel in my basement!):  https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Cad_Cell_Relay_Reset_Button.php

I'd pursue the CAD cell and a matching relay/controller, connected to an Insteon IOLinc route -- safer.

 

To be clear, nothing is going inside the exhaust flue.  I was going to merely have the end of the probe touching the exterior of the flue above the LNG hot water tank (it's 4" galvanized pipe).   Alternatively, I was also considering touching the probe to the copper hot water line coming out of the top of the tank.  That reading would be more stable (less high spikes and low spikes), although the notification timing may take longer than the other way.

I fully understand the safety factor in that the pilot outage is deactivating the gas for good reason (thermocoupler at the bottom of the tank).  I just go through this problem every year when the season changes.   Plumbers have been in can't figure it out, it SHOULDn't be happening (this is in a mechanical closet in my garage for the suite above said garage).   Venting, temperature, I don't know what is causing it but it happens every fall/winter season for like a month and constantly checking the pilot is a PITA so I'd rather get notified by a smart appliance so I can catch it before my tenant notices they have no hot water.

 

Here's the top of the tank.

[mwester]

Ok - thanks for the clarification!  A sensor on the outside of the flue won't have to deal with the flue gas.  I had a hot water tank that looked a lot like yours, but the flue made a 90-degree bend a foot over the tank to head to the chimney -- someone decided it would be nice to hang some of the kid's artwork from it.  We all learned that the flue itself is extremely hot...  so the caution on excessive heat remains.  A mitigation might be to get a galvanized metal "L" bracket from the hardware store, and mount the sensor a few inches away from the flue -- the bracket will conduct heat, but hopefully less of it will get to the sensor.  You'll have more lag in reporting the failure, but it might prevent the internals of the sensor from melting.

Regarding the pilot light failure -- I'm suspecting back-draft based on what you've mentioned... that was a nightmare for me in early fall every year, to the point where I had to crack one of the basement windows open a bit just to change the airflow enough to keep the pilot lit and the unit drafting up the flue correctly.  We finally replaced the unit with one that had a blower to assist the venting (high-efficiency too).

[larryllix]

You stated you are in Canada and that means you probably have a very air-tight house. In some homes, running a bathroom exhaust or stove exhaust fan can produce enough low air pressure backdraught that can extinguish your water heater pilot flame or, depending on the era of the DHW / fireplace design, endanger the occupants with CO2. At times a puff of air pressure or vacuum from the roof vent can extinguish the pilaot flame too. That gap between the tank and the flue is supposed to help avoid this. Your plumber should have been aware of this but...who knows? Designs and ideas are changing constantly.

Even a window cracked open slightly can cause a house vacuum, depending on the direction of the window across that Venturi opening. Tight seals can be  a problem in other places. My NG DHW uses outside air only but I still get an error reported, shutting the thing down from weather gusts that travel down a 45 and three 90s. stalling the power exhaust fan.

[Jay]

No doubt it’s a vacuum and a puff of air from somewhere.

I’ve learned to live with it, I just don’t want to have to be late to relighting it, hence the smart monitoring.

All things considered, I’m pretty stoked about implementing the tags. Love the vehicle approaching inside the homes geofence. Mobile phones haven’t been reliable for me on that front (crap cell coverage here). Proximity with a tag sounds slick.

Thanks to all for your input.


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[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

No doubt it’s a vacuum and a puff of air from somewhere.

I’ve learned to live with it, I just don’t want to have to be late to relighting it, hence the smart monitoring.

All things considered, I’m pretty stoked about implementing the tags. Love the vehicle approaching inside the homes geofence. Mobile phones haven’t been reliable for me on that front (crap cell coverage here). Proximity with a tag sounds slick.

Thanks to all for your input.


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There are rules around venting. I can;t remember the rules from years back but vents on a roof must be x feet above the highest roof peak within y feet of the vent. Winds will cause turbulence off the roof peaks and create down draughts or venturi reactions if the placement is not right. Usually the solution is to extend your roof vent higher by one length of pipe. A proper wind proof cap designed to  reject turbulence may help also.

I have not relied on the geofencing ability of the Tags for anything serious so can't report on the reliability of it. I report the signal failure signal from KumoApps and I suspect it may not be totally reliable. I have caught the signal still not updated after I got home and loaded the admin console. That takes almost 10 minutes on my small laptop. I am not sure if there is a better comm path for this. I think PolyGlot node only reads the data from the same source as KumoApps, CAO's provided smart system.
However I do use the signal for garage door left open after I leave so perhaps the failure is detected faster than the signal restore logic. I detected the car unit almost 2 km. away once as my wife came up the rural back road. Consider the rural to be radio quiet though.

[etsvilik]

Take a look at CAO outdoor tag with K-type thermocouples. http://wirelesstag.net/probe.html

Those Omega thermocouples are capable of very high temperatures measurement.  Im using one to alert me when my grill reached set temperature.  Another is measuring pool water heater output temps. Rock solid with larger batteries.