toddhutch Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 I'm working on a new home and the mechanical drawings are just being completed. My question is there are a whole bunch of three way light switches in the home right now. Is the right way to wire the house is to wire in a 2477D as a one way switch for all of the lights, then pull power only to the location for the 3 way and 4 way switches? There are locations that have 4 switches all are 3 way, would you just pull 1 power pull to the location, and then wire the 4 switches in parallel? Program the 2477D using the isy994i to send to the receivers and be done? This would seem to save a bunch of money on the wiring side of things.
oberkc Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, toddhutch said: Is the right way to wire the house is to wire in a 2477D as a one way switch for all of the lights, then pull power only to the location for the 3 way and 4 way switches? All locations need line and neutral. One location needs switched hot conductor to the fixture. Obviously, the fixture requires neutral as well. It has been my experience that so long as there is a neutral available, normal three- and four-way wiring practices can be readily adapted for use with insteon. Personally, I would probably not wire it in such a way that it could not be retrofit with standard mechanical switches. 10 minutes ago, toddhutch said: Program the 2477D using the isy994i to send to the receivers and be done? Pretty much, yes. 10 minutes ago, toddhutch said: This would seem to save a bunch of money on the wiring side of things. Only if you are absolutely certain that you are going to continue with insteon or z-wave or equivalent for the indefinite future, would I opt to save the money.
toddhutch Posted January 10, 2019 Author Posted January 10, 2019 Thank you for the response, the savings on copper wiring (A few thousand feet), I'm hoping would pay for the 60 insteon switches I bought during the 50% off end of the year sale. I expect that the home will always have some sort of home automation in it, even when it's sold. Is there another reason other than preference to wire it with all the three way and four way wiring.
TrojanHorse Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 I’ve heard many people here and elsewhere say wire the house the standard way. I would agree. Often the argument mentions resale. But also, any future retrofit smart lighting will be compatible with it. Can’t say the same for sure if you make up a standard. I don’t know that the material savings would be that significant, and might be offset by labor for doing it in a nonstandard way. And it goes without saying that if ever required, re-wiring a finished house would be very expensive and messy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
toddhutch Posted January 10, 2019 Author Posted January 10, 2019 Thank you for the response. That sounds also like preference. If the price difference is pretty small then I'll just have them wire it. I'll update the thread when I find out what the price difference is. The only reason I can think of, and it's far fetched, is some sort of light solution comes out that is not compatible with home automation solutions, then it would be a problem. Isn't this just like the solution that has relays at the breaker box all controlled via wireless switches?
oberkc Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 I installed some Leviton "homekit" switches not long ago. I recall that they had, along with hot and neutral, a traveler between the primary switch (load control) and secondary switches. I understand that the home will most likely have "some sort" of home automation. Just be aware that some automated switches are wired differently than insteon and z-wave. 52 minutes ago, toddhutch said: Thank you for the response, the savings on copper wiring (A few thousand feet), I'm hoping would pay for the 60 insteon switches I bought during the 50% off end of the year sale. Wow. That is definitely not trivial. So long that you make an informed decision, I am sure it will be the right one. In the end, the way you propose would work with insteon. Yes, the suggestions have been preference (based upon perceived future risk avoidance).
asbril Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 About a year ago, we fully redid a condo for my Son almost from the ground and told the electrician to make sure that every switch had neutral. Some may not have been needed but I preferred to have too many than not enough. Who knows, maybe it cost me a bit more, but retrofitting would be more expensive. In my own condo, when changing everything to Zwave, the electrician had to manoeuvre quite a bit to add neutral in some switch boxes and at the end in only one place was it impossible to add neutral, without actually opening the ceiling. Luckily it was the one place in my home that I did not care about. In short, better do too much than not enough.
TrojanHorse Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Isn't this just like the solution that has relays at the breaker box all controlled via wireless switches? I’m not familiar with this solution, can you describe it? I know home-running every switch was recently mentioned, but of course that would use a lot more copper. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TrojanHorse Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 Here at the local Home Depot you can get 1000 feet of 14-3 for $250 and 14-2 for $175. Knowing this (and your 1000s of feet won’t all be n-way switches), I’d even more strongly say do the traditional wiring. You can never have too much wire in the walls! While you’re doing this, have you planned to wire for low voltage? Same goes there too - do more now during construction when it’s easy and cheap. Cocoontech forum has a good “wiring 101” resource although I’m not sure how up to date it is. Best would be to home run conduits to key LV locations for future proofing. But for starters, 2 cat6 and a coax to each TV location. Security sensors and keypads? Monitored smokes? Wireless has gotten better recently but you can’t beat hard wired for reliability and for concealing security sensors.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
toddhutch Posted January 10, 2019 Author Posted January 10, 2019 @TrojanHorse Yes, have plans for hardwired internal door sensors so lighting will be automated by door openings, and some for motion detection as well.
palayman Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 2 hours ago, asbril said: About a year ago, we fully redid a condo for my Son almost from the ground and told the electrician to make sure that every switch had neutral. Shouldn't need to ask. Since 2011 the NEC has required neutral in every switch location (minor exception only if it can be easily installed from open back or raceway in the future).
asbril Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, palayman said: Shouldn't need to ask. Since 2011 the NEC has required neutral in every switch location (minor exception only if it can be easily installed from open back or raceway in the future). I was not aware of this but this was an older building and I assume that you may be referring to new constructions, rather than re-doing an existing older home. BTW my recommendation would be to cable the home for standard setup. Interestingly, with Zwave 3-way you don't need 2 traveler wires, but we actually used one of the two traveler wires to bring neutral where needed. Also Inovelli switches allow you to operate the secondary (auxiliary) switch without neutral by using a plain standard (non Zwave) switch.
oberkc Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 7 hours ago, palayman said: Since 2011 the NEC has required neutral in every switch location (minor exception only if it can be easily installed from open back or raceway in the future). While true, this does not necessarily mean that every state has adopted this standard. Definitely still worth asking/confirming.
palayman Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 14 hours ago, oberkc said: While true, this does not necessarily mean that every state has adopted this standard. Definitely still worth asking/confirming. Only 3 states have not adopted 2011 or newer - KS, IL, IN And 3 states use county regulations (some of which have adopted 2011 or newer) - AZ, MS, MO Everywhere else should have neutrals in all switch boxes including renovations.
asbril Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 1 hour ago, palayman said: including renovations. Interesting. I know for a fact that local city inspectors did not require this last year (here in SE Florida)
palayman Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, asbril said: Interesting. I know for a fact that local city inspectors did not require this last year (here in SE Florida) Not surprising. Hard for these guys to keep up with all the changes every three years in the NEC.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 I'm all in on wiring as if it's a standard home. Regardless of extra cost, the amount is minimal compared to being in a situation where something changes and you need to go back in and add a wire for some reason. Automation is great but things change. The more custom the setup (as mentioned earlier) the less likely you will be able to adapt. My main recommendation is to use extra deep wall boxes. Your electrician will thank you. Once you have to replace a switch yourself, you will be happy that you did
asbril Posted January 10, 2019 Posted January 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: use extra deep wall boxes YES !!!!!
toddhutch Posted January 11, 2019 Author Posted January 11, 2019 @lilyoyo1 I was thinking the same thing about deeper boxes, however the new dimmer switches are about 1/2 as deep as before. I was shocked when I opened one up, I was worried that they sent me the wrong ones, since they didn't look like the huge box of clear plastic. Hurray for Insteon for that!
lilyoyo1 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, toddhutch said: @lilyoyo1 I was thinking the same thing about deeper boxes, however the new dimmer switches are about 1/2 as deep as before. I was shocked when I opened one up, I was worried that they sent me the wrong ones, since they didn't look like the huge box of clear plastic. Hurray for Insteon for that! Insteon's dimmer switches are thin compared to others. However the space gets used up quickly. Especially for multi-gang boxes. The additional cost is miniscule but the outcome is tremendous. This also protects you for the future should you choose to go with another brand as theirs may be much deeper.
Sub-Routine Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 On 1/9/2019 at 6:31 PM, toddhutch said: I'm working on a new home and the mechanical drawings are just being completed. My question is there are a whole bunch of three way light switches in the home right now. Is the right way to wire the house is to wire in a 2477D as a one way switch for all of the lights, then pull power only to the location for the 3 way and 4 way switches? There are locations that have 4 switches all are 3 way, would you just pull 1 power pull to the location, and then wire the 4 switches in parallel? Program the 2477D using the isy994i to send to the receivers and be done? This would seem to save a bunch of money on the wiring side of things. Since conventional wiring for 3-ways usually includes a hot and neutral at the box controlling the load, and 2 travelers to any other switches, it is easy enough to re-purpose the travelers to supply hot and neutral to the slave switches. I don't see any reason to include an extra wire to the slaves. My home was conventionally wired with 3 and 4 ways. It wasn't an issue to re-purpose the wires, and it can be returned to mechanical switches. The only difference being the one re-purposed traveler for neutral will be colored, not white. I wrapped white electrical tape near the ends of those wires to distinguish them. BTW, you can use non-dimming switches for the slaves. They will still send bright and dim commands when you hold the paddle. They just won't have all the LEDs to indicate brightness. That will save a few bucks.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 24 minutes ago, Sub-Routine said: There's no difference in cost between insteon dimmer switches and relays. Even if there was, the silence of a dimmer more than makes up for whatever cost difference there would be. The on/off switch has a noticeable click. Little details like that takes away from the experience greatly
Sub-Routine Posted January 11, 2019 Posted January 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: There's no difference in cost between insteon dimmer switches and relays. Even if there was, the silence of a dimmer more than makes up for whatever cost difference there would be. The on/off switch has a noticeable click. Little details like that takes away from the experience greatly THat goes to show how long it has been since I bought any new switches! There used to be a $10 difference. In fact, when Smarthome was discontinuing the Icon switches I bought quite a few that I installed in locations like the basement and garage where LEDs and clicks don't mean anything to me and it increased the WAF (wife acceptance factor) 10X.
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