Lots of questions... looking for advice

[adamthp]

I'm hoping this forum will come through for me again... it never stops amazing me how darn helpful this community is. I am fairly naive about a lot of this... and some of these questions may be best sent to Brultech directly. I figured as always, this is a great place to start. 

I did just come across this https://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929 , but at 41 pages I'm going to have to make a couple of cups of coffee. I'm guessing a lot of my questions will be answered when I have the time to read it all. 

I just signed the dotted line to have a large solar installation built at my house. It's a fairly large, power hungry house.. and I want to do everything I can to eke out some efficiency where I can. 

I ended up getting net metering (which is near impossible for my part of MI, but a big system got me into category 2). I am installing a 35 KW system and will end up with 3 SolarEdge inverters. Although I haven't looked at it much, I'm hoping I can integrate the inverters through polyglot could. 

I'm not entirely sure what programs I would want to run based on this data , but it seems like the more data I can get, and more the integration I can get with the ISY the better. 

My house currently has two main 200 amp panels next to each other from a 400 amp service. I then have another 200 amp panel subfed from one of the main panels in another part of the house. At a minimum I would like to be able to use GEMs to monitor these 3 panels. I actually have 100 ish channels I would like to monitor from these 3 panels, but I could get it down to 96 channels to be able to use this package. https://www.brultech.com/store/index.php?id_product=134&controller=product

In addition to these 3 panels, I also have a subfed panel out on my dock, and a subfed panel running through shielded transformer to a recording studio. I am also going to end up feeding a barn/workshop 100 amp panel from a new main 400 amp lug panel outside that will tie my inverters, electrical service and generator into the feed into the house. In an ideal world I'd like to monitor these circuits as well... but I could deal if that's a no go. 

So, on to some questions.... is this package https://www.brultech.com/store/index.php?id_product=134&controller=product the right package for me?

Can the dash box connect to more than 3 GEMS, if say I wanted to add ECM 1240s on some of the smaller subfed panels?

Am I correct in thinking the ISY can only communicate with 2 GEMs, and zigbee is best? Or can the ISY communicate directly with the dash box via zigbee and get data from all 3 GEMs? Or have the dash box send REST calls to the ISY for all 96 channels?

How do the GEMs connect to the dash box? I'm planning on placing the dash box next to my two main panels, and then would have to use wifi/ethernet to connect to my third panel that's further away?

I see net metering referenced on the Brultech site.... but what all can it monitor?

Finally... what are some ideas for programs that I could use the data from the GEMs/Dash Box for?... and with the data from my SolarEdge inverters?  I think I am interested enough in just the data to want to invest in a setup, but I'd love to hear how I could best utilize the available data to make my home more efficient. 

I appreciate any help and advice, and thanks in advance for taking the time to help me understand this all better!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michel Kohanim]

@adamthp,

Congrats!

I will have to answer your questions with more questions:

1. Where do you live? i.e. this is probably the most important question since, if you live in CA, then you have Smart Meters and thus you can get whole house energy information from the meter in real time
2. SolarEdge does provide you with whole house energy usage
--> Why do you want to sub meter? Do you actually want to know the energy usage of each device? if so, why not use Z-Wave devices that have built in energy monitors?
 

With kind regards,
Michel

[adamthp]

Thanks for taking the time @Michel Kohanim

CA.... I wish. I'm busy getting vortexed and buried in snow in the far reaches of the UP of MI. No Smart Meters here. 

I got started on the sub meter kick by my solar installer talking about the sense app. It looked slick, but I figured there must be a way to get similar data into the ISY. It got me thinking of ways to use this data to try and lower our power consumption. I have a ton of pumps in my house that eat up power, and dock jets in the winter to keep ice from killing my dock. I'd like to be able to keep an eye on how much power these are all using, and then try to strategize and develop programs to bring the usage down.... this just led me deeper into wanting to sub meter as much as I could to really get a grip on what's consuming our power and find ways to become more efficient. 

I honestly haven't looked at z wave options... some forum searching led me to the Brultech stuff, and I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before I jump into anything. What would be your reason for picking a z wave option over a Brultech system?

I have been working my way through @Teken 's mammoth post on the Brultech forum, and little by little I am starting to understand the complexities and limitations of the Brultech system.

From the info I've been able to gather so far it sounds like an ISY can get data from up to 2 GEMs, and 4 ECM 1240s? I think I would be able to make that work somehow. I really do have a lot more to understand, but every little helps.

 

Thanks!

[Scottmichaelj]

IOGuys Nodelink via GEM program can import directly to the ISY. Brultech may have even done a new direct link. Its been a bit I would have to look but others here also use the Brultech and I cant say enough good things about it. Just know energy use is per circuit not outlet. So if you have a kitchen and bedrooms on the same circuit thats the use your going to see.

 

[adamthp]

This may be better suited for the Brultech forum,  but I'm having issues get registered over there, so I can't post yet.

Will the ISY support 2 GEMs and 4 ECM 1240s if they are all zigbee? Will the Brultech DashBox support the same? The ISY will not support 3 GEMs?

On my two main 200 amp panels I'm thinking of of using one GEM and 1 ECM 1240. Is there any way to mix circuits from both panels over the GEM and ECM 1240. I have at least 40 channels I'd like to monitor over the two panels, but if I am maxed out on 2 GEMs and 4 ECM 1240s I think it's all I can do. 

This is what I'm thinking for a layout... sorry for my crappy handwriting..... 

 

Thanks!

[Teken]

On 1/31/2019 at 2:45 PM, adamthp said:

I'm hoping this forum will come through for me again... it never stops amazing me how darn helpful this community is. I am fairly naive about a lot of this... and some of these questions may be best sent to Brultech directly. I figured as always, this is a great place to start. 

I did just come across this https://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929 , but at 41 pages I'm going to have to make a couple of cups of coffee. I'm guessing a lot of my questions will be answered when I have the time to read it all. 

I just signed the dotted line to have a large solar installation built at my house. It's a fairly large, power hungry house.. and I want to do everything I can to eke out some efficiency where I can. 

I ended up getting net metering (which is near impossible for my part of MI, but a big system got me into category 2). I am installing a 35 KW system and will end up with 3 SolarEdge inverters. Although I haven't looked at it much, I'm hoping I can integrate the inverters through polyglot could. 

I'm not entirely sure what programs I would want to run based on this data , but it seems like the more data I can get, and more the integration I can get with the ISY the better. 

My house currently has two main 200 amp panels next to each other from a 400 amp service. I then have another 200 amp panel subfed from one of the main panels in another part of the house. At a minimum I would like to be able to use GEMs to monitor these 3 panels. I actually have 100 ish channels I would like to monitor from these 3 panels, but I could get it down to 96 channels to be able to use this package. https://www.brultech.com/store/index.php?id_product=134&controller=product

In addition to these 3 panels, I also have a subfed panel out on my dock, and a subfed panel running through shielded transformer to a recording studio. I am also going to end up feeding a barn/workshop 100 amp panel from a new main 400 amp lug panel outside that will tie my inverters, electrical service and generator into the feed into the house. In an ideal world I'd like to monitor these circuits as well... but I could deal if that's a no go. 

So, on to some questions.... is this package https://www.brultech.com/store/index.php?id_product=134&controller=product the right package for me?

Can the dash box connect to more than 3 GEMS, if say I wanted to add ECM 1240s on some of the smaller subfed panels?

Am I correct in thinking the ISY can only communicate with 2 GEMs, and zigbee is best? Or can the ISY communicate directly with the dash box via zigbee and get data from all 3 GEMs? Or have the dash box send REST calls to the ISY for all 96 channels?

How do the GEMs connect to the dash box? I'm planning on placing the dash box next to my two main panels, and then would have to use wifi/ethernet to connect to my third panel that's further away?

I see net metering referenced on the Brultech site.... but what all can it monitor?

Finally... what are some ideas for programs that I could use the data from the GEMs/Dash Box for?... and with the data from my SolarEdge inverters?  I think I am interested enough in just the data to want to invest in a setup, but I'd love to hear how I could best utilize the available data to make my home more efficient. 

I appreciate any help and advice, and thanks in advance for taking the time to help me understand this all better!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The ISY Series controller can only support a single GEM via ZigBee. I can't comment whether or not it could support the smaller ECM-1240 together as I have never read of anyone doing so.

I believe a couple of folks here have two ECM-1240 connected via Zigbee.

As others noted there are a couple of other ways to get the GEM data into the ISY Series Controller. Really comes down to sweat equity and your comfort level in terms of time and willing to learn. Below I will just quickly summarize possible solutions and avenues to get energy data into the ISY Series Controller.

1. ISY Z-Wave: You could go this route by purchasing individual outlets / plugin modules. For the most part that would give you information at the point of use of each appliance. The downside of going this route is the lack of accuracy, cost, and unified view. Depending on the Z-Wave brands you consider some only support 120 VAC point of use (POU). A few offer the ability to monitor 240 VAC loads but again the lack of accuracy, fine tuning, and over all costs makes little sense.

Never mind they all draw down some amount of energy while affixed to the wall / circuit.

2. Raspberry Pi: GEM Node Link: This requires a RPi / dedicated PC to be set up to host the Node Link application which in turn creates multiple nodes in the ISY Series Controller for each channel from electrical, pulse, temp. The ISY Series Controller must be running the 5.XX Beta firmware which allows you to create these virtual nodes / channels. I haven't seen anyone here try to integrate more than one GEM via this method so you might be the first test case so let us know what happens. 

3. Brultech Green Eye Monitor & Dash Box: ZigBee GEM & DB combo will allow you to two possible avenues to send the same data to the ISY Series Controller. By default when a GEM is connected to the ISY Series Controller via ZigBee only the 32 electrical channels are available for use for the user. This is why I pushed the Brultech team to come up with another method that would allow the missing channels to be seen and made available to the ISY Series Controller which were the pulse / 1 Wire temperature sensors.

The Dash Box (DB) essentially pushes all 46 possible data channels to the the ISY Series Controller via REST calls. The person still has lots of work to do in terms of setting up the ISY Series Controller to see, capture, and act on these incoming REST calls. In a nut shell you're going to create 1~1000 of State / Integer Variables which will enable you to see,  react, and track that streaming data.  

The Dash Box offers a lot more capability besides just sending REST calls to the ISY Series Controller though.

Above is just a very quick summary of choices which really comes down to how much you want to invest into this endeavor. I can say having invested more than 25 years in this field that overall this is a lifestyle change. If you need more details about any of the above by all means please ask them here or in the Brultech forums.        

[adamthp]

Hey @Teken

Thanks for taking the time to lay this all out. I worked with Ben at Brultech to get a system planned, and it's now sitting in a box in my mechanical room just waiting for me to get started. I am going to try the whole gambit of integrating the GEMs with my ISY. I am basically going to dedicate an ISY to this (well... it also handles running my mini split ACs based on my Nest thermostats but....) I'm going to use Zigbee for my main 'mechanical panel', then either the DB or node link for my other 3 GEMs. (Ben talked me into 4 GEMs total, instead of the combo GEMs/ECM1240s) I'll report back on how that all works out. 

My main goal with this endeavor is to try and improve the efficiency of our home, and to figure out the most effective way of running devices/programs that operate when we are making plentiful power from our solar setup....and notify us when we could be making better choices when we are pulling from the grid. I'm hoping a few years of data from the GEMs and our solar production will allow us to properly size batteries to go off grid. I want to be able to do this without having to alter our day to day lifestyle too much...and I think the only way to figure this all out is an abundance of data. 

I am fortunate to have plenty of time to spend on this project, and I'm looking forward to diving in. I'm sure questions will pop, so I'm sure you will be hearing from me.

By the way, you're mammoth thread on the Brultech forum is pretty damn impressive. It has helped inspire me to tackle all of this, and I for one appreciate you chronicling everything in such detail.

Thanks!

[Teken]

4 minutes ago, adamthp said:

Hey @Teken

Thanks for taking the time to lay this all out. I worked with Ben at Brultech to get a system planned, and it's now sitting in a box in my mechanical room just waiting for me to get started. I am going to try the whole gambit of integrating the GEMs with my ISY. I am basically going to dedicate an ISY to this (well... it also handles running my mini split ACs based on my Nest thermostats but....) I'm going to use Zigbee for my main 'mechanical panel', then either the DB or node link for my other 3 GEMs. (Ben talked me into 4 GEMs total, instead of the combo GEMs/ECM1240s) I'll report back on how that all works out. 

My main goal with this endeavor is to try and improve the efficiency of our home, and to figure out the most effective way of running devices/programs that operate when we are making plentiful power from our solar setup....and notify us when we could be making better choices when we are pulling from the grid. I'm hoping a few years of data from the GEMs and our solar production will allow us to properly size batteries to go off grid. I want to be able to do this without having to alter our day to day lifestyle too much...and I think the only way to figure this all out is an abundance of data. 

I am fortunate to have plenty of time to spend on this project, and I'm looking forward to diving in. I'm sure questions will pop, so I'm sure you will be hearing from me.

By the way, you're mammoth thread on the Brultech forum is pretty damn impressive. It has helped inspire me to tackle all of this, and I for one appreciate you chronicling everything in such detail.

Thanks!

That's really great to hear and apologies for the late reply as life has been extremely busy for me in the last seven months. Hope very much you took a a few lazy Sunday's with a tall cup of coffee while reading my endless rants, raves, and journey. Look forward to you creating your very own *Project / Install Thread* in the Brultech forums. As your new journey will inspire many more in the years to come so please capture and document the ups and downs of your endeavors.

As you kindly noted the details I left in my Projects Thread was to help me track, reflect, and share with others as to what I have done and been able to accomplish. It goes with out saying the companies like UDI, Brultech, and forum members have made this all possible for me.

Rock On . .  .