bjackson Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Having a problem with the 120V (red wire) sensor output from a Heath/Zenith PIR motion sensor, model #SL-5316. It's the one being sold by HomeDepot. The In-LineLinc is wired to the floodlight and motion sensor as shown in the "Wired with Sense" diagram of the Quick Start Guide (http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2475S2-qsg.pdf). My problem is I get a very brief 110VAC output from the motion sensor that immediately falls to between ~15VAC to ~55VAC when wired only to the Sense input (yellow wire) of the In-LineLinc. The 15V to 55VAC output from the motion sensor (red wire) is too low to trigger the In-LineLinc to turn on it's load - i.e. the floodlights. The "Dual Bright" (dimming feature) switch on the Heath/Zenith sensor is set to Off. This happens with the motion sensor in Test mode and in normal operating mode. The In-LineLinc LED is green, manually pressing the Off and On buttons switch the floodlights correctly and I can turn the lights on/off remotely from the ISY Admin Console. I experimented by moving the motion sensor and floodlight lamp to the work bench (without the In-LineLinc) where I wire nutted things together using a cutoff extension cord for power. Connecting my digital multimeter (DMM) to the motion sensor output (red wire) and the white (neutral) wire again confirmed very brief 110V reading that dropped to ~55V with the motion sensor in "Test" mode and "Dual Bright" off. However, wiring the floodlight lamp to the motion sensor output (red wire) produced a steady 110VAC reading on the DMM when the motion sensor is activated, and the floodlight is shining brightly. It seems the Heath/Zenith motion sensor needs a resistive load to produce a steady 110VAC load on the red output wire. Appreciate if anyone can recommend a solution. If I have to, I'll buy the new Insteon Motion Sensor Floodlight from SmartHome, though I don't see why the Heath/Zenith PIR shouldn't work. Thanks
SteveL Posted May 24, 2009 Posted May 24, 2009 Your yellow wire should be connected to the wire that comes from the motion detector that powers the flood lights. You break the connection and hook your red wire of the in-line to the floods and they yellow to the other wire that was connected to the floods comming from the motion. I have mine set up this way and it workss fine. How is your connected. Steve L Smarthome
bjackson Posted May 24, 2009 Author Posted May 24, 2009 This is how it's wired: Motion PIR --- Black Wire -+- Black & Red (Line, Load) --- In-LineLinc | + Line Side from Electrical Box Motion PIR --- Red Wire --- Yellow Wire (Sense) --- In-LineLinc Floodlight lamps --- Black Wires (2) --- Red Wire (Load) --- In-LineLinc All neutrals (white) connected together. All grounds connected together. --------- Since my last post, I temporarily wired in an on/off light switch from the house line side (black) to the yellow (Sense) input of the In-LineLinc. The red wire sensor output is disconnected here. Throwing the switch applies 120V to the yellow input of the In-LineLinc but I'm not hearing the relay click. I verified 120V on the yellow wire with my DMM. The other functions of the In-LineLinc - LED is green, push button on/off (audible click of the relay), link button activation with beep and remote control via ISY Admin Console work fine. I'm wondering if I have a bad In-LineLinc? I have a 2nd unit on hand that I can replace it with.
nstein Posted May 25, 2009 Posted May 25, 2009 Sorry, from my experience, the Dual-bright motion sensors are incompatible with the In-LineLinc w Sense, only motion sensors with relays in them work. -Nick
bjackson Posted May 25, 2009 Author Posted May 25, 2009 After more experimentation, I'm convinced the In-LineLinc w/ Sense is not the problem. I setup the motion sensor, In-LineLinc and flood lamp on the workbench with the Heath/Zenith motion sensor and a Hampton Create-A-Light motion sensor. This is the workbench setup. Notice the Hampton motion sensor (not a dual bright model) is applying 123.9VAC to the yellow (Sense) wire of the In-LineLinc, yet the floodlamp is off. In this next photo, the flood lamp on is because I disconnected/reconnected the motion sensor red wire from the yellow sense wire. The momentary interruption caused the In-LineLinc to switch on the red load wire that's connected to the lamp. In trying various configurations, I've found: 1) Connecting the motion sensor directly to the flood lamp without the In-LineLinc always works. The PIR red wire voltage goes from near 0VAC to 123VAC when the motion sensor is activated. 2) When the In-LineLinc is wired into the circuit, the motion sensor red wire voltage is 123VAC when the sensor is on, but it only goes to 84VAC when the motion sensor is off. I watched the on/off transitions on the DMM and heard the motion sensor relay click on and off as I waved my hand across it. The Hampton motion sensor doesn't have the "Dual Bright" dimming option of the Heath/Zenith, yet both have strange voltage behaviors when connected to the Sense wire of the In-LineLinc. The Heath/Zenith won't raise the voltage on the red output wire above ~55VAC in the On state. The Hampton sensor won't drop it's voltage below 84VAC in the off state. Manually pressing the In-LineLinc on/off buttons always works. I've also tried a factory default reset but this made no difference. I've studied my wiring numerous times, am I missing something? The wiring isn't complex. Has anyone had similar problems with off-the-shelf PIR sensors? Thanks for your replies!
bjackson Posted May 25, 2009 Author Posted May 25, 2009 I took another look at the floodlight unit that sold with the SmartHome kit. The user manual at http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/4097bn.pdf identifies it as a Heath/Zenith model SL-5408 - a low cost basic unit that's widely available. The SL-5408 is very similar to the SL-5411 which is sold a Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&catalogId=10&productId=100014085. I confirmed the similar features by Googling the SL-5411 user guide. I'll get the SL-5411 and give it a try. I think my problem is finding a compatible motion sensor unit.
TJF1960 Posted May 25, 2009 Posted May 25, 2009 It looks like even though this motion sensor uses a relay to switch the load on and off it has some voltage on the red lead which will bleed off when hooked to a sizeable enough load (like a flood light), but the load on the yellow wire from the 2475S2 isn’t large enough to bleed that voltage down. I wonder, if you were to wire in a small night light, a 4 watt bulb, from the yellow and red connection to neutral, if that would take care of the problem? The 4 watt bulb would probably be enough to drain the voltage presented on the red wire of the motion enough so that the 2475S2 would then see a voltage closer to 0 when the motion is off. I am not sure why there is voltage on the red wire when the motion is off. Perhaps there is a capacitor across the relay contacts to help control contact pitting, or to help prevent voltage spikes from the contact closing and opening. If that is the case, there may be many motion detectors which might present this same problem. Please keep us posted on your progress. Tim
bjackson Posted May 25, 2009 Author Posted May 25, 2009 > I wonder, if you were to wire in a small night light, a 4 watt bulb, from the > yellow and red connection to neutral, if that would take care of the problem? > The 4 watt bulb would probably be enough to drain the voltage presented > on the red wire of the motion enough so that the 2475S2 would then see > a voltage closer to 0 when the motion is off. I was thinking the same thing. I purchased the Heath Zenith SL-5411 ($21.97) which is sold at Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&catalogId=10&productId=100014085) and tested it on my workbench. It worked perfectly the 1st time with the In-LineLinc! Voltages on the sensor red wire went between 0VAC and 120VAC when the motion sensor is activated, the relay in the In-LineLinc clicked and the lights went on and off with the motion sensor signal. Note the SL-5411 model does not have the Dual-Bright feature. I wired up the outside floodlight with the SL-5411 motion sensor, put the motion sensor in Test mode and success! It worked with the In-LineLinc! And with compact fluorescent bulbs too! Root Cause: All motion sensors are not created equal. The Heath Zenith models with the Dual-Bright feature don't work with the In-LineLinc (see prior note in this thread from Nick who found this issue, too). The Hampton Creat-a-Light motion sensor that I scavenged from another floodlight had similar voltage problems. Thanks everyone for your suggestions!
bjackson Posted May 26, 2009 Author Posted May 26, 2009 Installed a 2nd In-LineLinc with the Heath Zenith SL-5412 floodlight, available at Home Depot. The SL-5412 (180 degree motion sensor, lamp shades) is a slightly better version of the SL-5411 (150 degree motion sensor, no lamp shades). Both models work fine with the In-LineLinc.
RichTJ99 Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 This is pretty interesting! I have an extra Inlinelinc & I couldnt figure what to do with it. I was planning on buying the smarthome version & just realized from this thread that the motion sensor kit is a cheapo sensor with an inlinelinc. BTW, how does the motion portion register in ISY? Is it considered a motion device like a standard SH motion sensor?
bjackson Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 I've documented the installations on my website at http://www.handymanhowto.com/category/technology/home-automation/. The Heath Zenith PIR motion sensor isn't intelligent, it just drives the sensor output from 0VAC to 120VAC and the InLineLinc does the rest. It's easy to see how one could get creative and cannibalize the PIR sensor and use it with the InLineLinc to control all kinds of 120VAC circuits, pumps, etc. Just be sure to follow the electrical building codes and stay safe. Thanks Bob
RichTJ99 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Bob, I am enjoying reading your articles. I had one question about the Inlinelinc with the 'sense'. When looking at the ISY, is the Inlinelinc a stand alone item, or does it create a second entry for hte "sense" in an on/off manner? I am curious if there is a way to get a motion sense & know that there was motion (aside from the light going to the on position)? I dont know if there can be two devices from the one inline linc: 1. Inline Linc on/off 2. Inline linc Sense on/off Thanks, Rich
Michel Kohanim Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Hello Bob, I just wanted to say that I checked out your site and I am most impressed. I believe your site is very easy to navigate and find things. Do you mind if we put a link to it from our Wiki? Thanks SO very much. With kind regards, Michel
fitzpatri8 Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Bob, I am enjoying reading your articles. I had one question about the Inlinelinc with the 'sense'. When looking at the ISY, is the Inlinelinc a stand alone item, or does it create a second entry for hte "sense" in an on/off manner? I am curious if there is a way to get a motion sense & know that there was motion (aside from the light going to the on position)? I dont know if there can be two devices from the one inline linc: 1. Inline Linc on/off 2. Inline linc Sense on/off Thanks, Rich I can answer that. The ILL Relay with Sense is a single controller. The sense signal turns the ILL on or off and sends a controller signal from the ILL to turn on any devices linked as responders. Any status requests will simply show the current status of that ILL, whether or not the ILL was turned on via a remote command or via sense. That said, you can distinguish events by choosing whether a program is triggered by Control 'Ill' or Status 'Ill', since Control will only trigger if the Sense/front panel button is triggered, whereas the Status will simply reflect whether the device is on or off regardless of which linked device turned it on.
RichTJ99 Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Sorry to be dense but are you saying I can have a program that says: If SHMotion light sees motion then program is true Or is this more like if I link keypad button C to the Motion light, then I can use button C status to know that motion was triggered? I am a little confused. If its daytime, will the triggerlinc still register motion? Can you dumb this down for me, i am not getting it. Thanks< Rich
fitzpatri8 Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 A program that triggered with: "If Control 'Garage InLineLinc w Sense' is switched On" would only evaluate as true if the sensor attached to the ILL turned on. A program that triggered with: "If Status 'Garage InLineLinc w Sense' is On" would evaluate as true if *either* the sensor turned on *or* another Insteon device, linked as a controller with the ILL as responder, turned the ILL on. In that way, you could turn on the light using another sensor (another motion on the other side of the house, for instance) and still see when the attached motion triggered. If the motion sensor tells the ILL to turn on, it turns on, so if you wanted to sense motion during the day you'd need to disable the dusk sensor and the ILL would switch on whenever the motion detector saw motion. If you wanted to detect motion during the day but only operate the light at night, you'd need to disable the motion sensor's dusk/dawn sensor and add another dusk sensor between the ILL load output and the actual light.
RichTJ99 Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 My current setup is the following: X10 motion sensor Regular Motion sensor flood light Homeseer If it is nighttime, & the X10 sensor sees motion, it tells Homeseer to turn on the power to the motion sensor, power to the front porch light, Backyard flood lights, and garage light for 10 minutes, then shut them off. In homeseer, the X10 motion sensor (G1 for example) during the day & night will give a status if its on or off. During the day, an on command shows the status but doesnt do anything. At night it does the lights on for 10 minutes then off. I can pull the X10 motion sensor in favor of an Insteon motion sensor, then put all the programming through the ISY, but I am a little concerned about the Motion sensor getting wet. The Insteon one is 35 bucks vs 5 bucks for the X10 (which has lasted a long time). Add to that the fact that the Insteon sensor is much thick (sticks out further) and I am not sure how long it will last. My goal would be to get rid of the X10, us the Insteon (either motion sensor or ILL combo), and use the ISY to control it all. It sucks if my PC crashes as I have no lights when I come home. ANyway with all that being said, what is the best way to go? I dont want to have the Insteon motion sensors breaking due to being rained on. I would guess they would be covered by SH but its also a little ugly vs a "standard" motion floodlight. My goal is to continue to be able to monitor the motion status. I assume the ILL sense has an on/off feature, so when motion is sensed what is the time out (or is that based on the floodlight)? I am a little confused but I want to move forward. Thanks, Rich
RichTJ99 Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 A program that triggered with: "If Control 'Garage InLineLinc w Sense' is switched On" would only evaluate as true if the sensor attached to the ILL turned on. A program that triggered with: "If Status 'Garage InLineLinc w Sense' is On" would evaluate as true if *either* the sensor turned on *or* another Insteon device, linked as a controller with the ILL as responder, turned the ILL on. In that way, you could turn on the light using another sensor (another motion on the other side of the house, for instance) and still see when the attached motion triggered. If the motion sensor tells the ILL to turn on, it turns on, so if you wanted to sense motion during the day you'd need to disable the dusk sensor and the ILL would switch on whenever the motion detector saw motion. If you wanted to detect motion during the day but only operate the light at night, you'd need to disable the motion sensor's dusk/dawn sensor and add another dusk sensor between the ILL load output and the actual light. Fitz, Are you saying that the only way the motion sensor will trigger the ILL sense is if the floodlight itself is going on? If I use the Status feature, it sounds like I could link a front door motion sensor, a kitchen door motion sensor to the ILL. So if any of those zones had motion, the lights on with a 10 minute countdown would start? It would also log which of the two motion sensors, or the ILL was triggered? Thanks, Rich
fitzpatri8 Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 The InLineLinc that is part of the # 2494MSWH kit is designed to give a coordinated response--when voltage is sensed on its input, it turns on its load and sends an on to linked devices, when voltage is removed, it turns off its load and sends an off to linked devices.
RichTJ99 Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 So all this really does is the motion sensor lets the ILL know when it is being turned on via the sense wire. That info is communicated to the ISY?
fitzpatri8 Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 The motion sensor adds or removes 110 VAC to the sense wire of the ILL, then the ILL responds to the change in state. If it is a change in state from off to on, it turns on the attached load and sends an ON signal to all linked devices; if it is a change in state from on to off, it turns off the attached load and transmits an OFF to all linked devices. If you send it a FAST ON or FAST OFF, it will switch its load to that state and ignore any input from the sense wire until it is removed from this mode with a regular ON or OFF.
Teddy Posted November 4, 2009 Posted November 4, 2009 I also ran into problems with the In-LineLinc Relay having trouble correctly sensing the output of the motion sensor. Instead of replacing the motion sensor, I simply hooked up a 120V relay to the motion sensor. Output (red wire) to one relay coil connection and the other coil connection to neutral. I then ran 120V Phase to one side of a NO contact of the relay and hooked up the yellow sense wire of the InLine-linc Relay to the other side. The relay picks up when the motion sensor detects motion and in turn triggers the In-Line Linc Relay to sense a clean, switched 120VAC. This works flawless with pretty much any type motion sensor. The relay can be purchase ad Radio Shack (part# 275-217) for less than ten bucks. Teddy
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