ISY994i vs. X-10 Issue

[mcisar]

Am new to the ISY platform so please excuse me if I'm missing something obvious (or if I'm providing way too much extraneous detail).   My pre-existing "automation" system consisted of a Homelink adaptor in my vehicle linked to an X10 driveway light and an X10 lamp module and an old X10 tabletop keypad.  Push the button in the car, both lights come on, push the button on the table both lights go off, everybody's been happy with that for the past dozen or so years .

Recently got some ZWave compatible locks and some high-tech light bulb that's also supposed to speak Zwave (shrug, it was in the bargain bin for $5 ) so thought ok now we're dealing multiple protocols so I picked up an ISY994i and a couple of Insteon modules to play with.  

Obviously the old X-10 stuff works just fine.  I've been able to set up so that I can turn on and off the old X-10 gear from the ISY, and also control the new Insteon modules and the Zwave bulb and locks... this also all works just fine.

What is NOT happening reliably is the ISY is not *seeing* the X10 events on the powerline reliably.   I wrote a test program such that X10-P1 off would turn off the zwave bulb and insteon module and correspondingly X10-P1 on would turn them on.  (X10-P1 is the address of both of the existing X10 lights).  Sending on or off from ISY turns X10, zwave and insteon on or off reliably 100% of the time.  Using the keypad button the X10 is on/off reliably 100% of the time but the zwave and insteon only work 1 or 2 times out of 20.  

Looking in the ISY event viewer with communication events enabled the ISY appears to only be seeing incoming X10 events very very rarely.  The X10 lamp module, the keypad and the PLM are all plugged in on the same circuit.   I read that Insteon can sometimes degrade X10 so I unplugged the insteon plug module from the equation just to be safe... still the same thing, sending X10 from ISY always works, receiving X10 works maybe 5% of the time at best.

Any thoughts?  

Thanks!

 

 

[oberkc]

The first thing that jumps out at me is concern about the location of your PLM.  Is it on an outlet or otherwise near a lot of other electronic gadgets, computer stuff, UPS, power supplies, etc....?  You can temporarily try moving the PLM to another circuit (an extension cord could help) to see if this solves the communication problem.

[kclenden]

5 hours ago, mcisar said:

My pre-existing "automation" system consisted of a Homelink adaptor in my vehicle linked to an X10 driveway light and an X10 lamp module and an old X10 tabletop keypad.

I'm not familiar with the Homelink adaptor and X10 tabletop keypad.  Are they both wireless devices?  If so, they must communicate with another device so that the X10 signal can be put onto the house wiring.  It would be the path between that device and the PLM that would dictate whether X10 signals from the device make it to the PLM.  As @oberkc mentions, signal suckers (UPS, power supplies, etc) along that path could be degrading the signals before they make it to the PLM.

[oberkc]

3 hours ago, kclenden said:

I'm not familiar with the Homelink adaptor and X10 tabletop keypad.  Are they both wireless devices?

At one point, I was interested in this system, but never pulled the trigger.  I believe the homelink adapter is similar to an x-10 transceiver...received the radio signal from the car then puts it onto the powerline in x-10 form.  The table-top keypad is plug-in (at least mine was, as was most that I saw).

[kclenden]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

I believe the homelink adapter is similar to an x-10 transceiver...received the radio signal from the car then puts it onto the powerline in x-10 form.  The table-top keypad is plug-in (at least mine was, as was most that I saw).

If that's the case, then my question would be whether the ISY doesn't see signals from both the homelink adapter and the table-top keypad, or it's just not seeing signals from the table-top keypad.  If it's the former, then I'm with you and the source of the signal degradation is likely close the the PLM.  If it's the latter, then it would seem more likely that the signal degradation would be close to the table-top keypad.  Also, if the table-top keypad is plug-in, the OP could try moving it and plugging it into a different circuit if moving the PLM doesn't help.

[Brian H]

The Homelink adapter was made by X10 and similar to one of the transceivers. They made OEM for the B&D Freewire system. I believe it used a different RF frequency than the normal X10 remotes but placed a standard X10 command on the power lines.

The trying the plug in controller in different locations as suggested may give you some added information.

If you have an Active X10 repeater between the two incoming power lines from the street. They have been known to see the end of an Insteon message as an X10 one and try and resend the bogus X10 command back onto the system. The passive ones don't do that and will also pass Insteon power line commands between the two incoming power lines.

[oberkc]

According to the original post, the keypad, PLM, and lamp module are all on the same circuit.  I do not know what else is on that circuit, if anything.  I have been assuming that the problem is receiving commands from the homelink transceiver.  If the PLM does not see commands from the keypad...well...I would definitely be checking for other devices on that circuit.

[Brian H]

There is a remote possibility your PLM is not processing the X10 received messages. Official X10 support is no longer listed in the 2413S specifications  but was still there in V2.4 Firmware 9E

I vaguely remember seeing a thread on a PLM not receiving X10 commands but had no issues with sending X10 commands and if  test with another one was fine.

If you have an opportunity.  What is the hardware version on the back label of the PLM and firmware revision reported in the Tools PLM Info/Status tab?   As I am interested in seeing if hardware V2.5 has finally started to ship  and if the firmware was updated from 9E.

[mcisar]

Hi all, work pulled me away for awhile.  Thanks for all of your comments.

Brian, the PLM is a 2.4 9E.  

Currently everything involved in this equation is plugged into the one single circuit in the garage, no power bars, no other devices of any sort.  Everything X-10 works perfectly in its own world, and as far as sending X-10 the PLM is 100% on that as well; it just doesn't seem to see the incoming X-10 traffic 90% of the time.  I did actually pick up the old Radio Shack clock with the built in keypad and a couple of lamp modules at a garage sale this afternoon, just to have another transmitter to try (hey, the dollar was burning a hole in my pocket)… the PLM doesn't see it's transmissions any more or less reliably than the existing tabletop keypad, all of "new" the lamp modules are quite content blinking on and off as requested just like my existing.

I think I have to say at this point that the evidence strongly points to the PLM being the culprit, but given that I don't intend to buy any more X10 stuff I'm thinking that maybe buying an EZX10RF to capture the X10RF signal from the Homelink might be a better spend than another PLM that might or might not have the same problem as the one I have.

 

[Brian H]

The EZX10RF should receive the X10 command and place it onto the power lines. Just like any of the X10 transceivers. If you are having X10 power line receiving issues with the present PLM. You would probably still have X10 Receive problems with the EZX10RF. You should be able to link it to the ISY994i with Insteon to the ISY994i and see it that way.

My Hardware V2.4  Firmware 9E has no issues in seeing X10 power line commands. Though my JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR X10 repeater blasts over 10 volts of X10 signals onto the power lines and respects Insteon commands. Have not measured it lately but probably at least 1 volt of X10 signals at my PLM .

[paulbates]

My experience coming from other X10 powerline adapters like the TW523 is that the plm is weaker both X10 send and receive. I would agree that finding another solution to the X10 would be the right path.

Paul

[mcisar]

Brian, that was kind of my theory.  As long as I can receive the X10RF signal from the cars and get the iSY to see it somehow (ie. Insteon) then I can still push X10 commands out to the powerline from the iSY if I need to.  The only thing I really "lose" is the ability of the iSY to see if I've pushed an X10 keypad button to turn the lights back off, which to me isn't really a major deal. 

Ultimately as I add other Insteon (or ZWave, or whatever) devices I will probably switch those particular lights and keypads away from X10 anyway.  The only thing that is unchangeably tied to the X10 (and in particular the X10RF) are the Homelink consoles in the cars, so if they're seen as Insteon through the EZX10RF I'm golden. 

Not exactly an out of the box solution, but ultimately I think the best workaround here.  If I had a whole ton of existing X10 it might be different.

[paulbates]

As I migrated from X10, i found the more insteon devices I installed, they eventually "numbed out" x10 devices, especially on the same circuit. I eventually swapped them all out in one project as they began responding intermittently

Paul

[Brian H]

The EZX10RF can translate an X10 address to an Insteon one. With a module linked to it. I would think if it was in the ISY994i you maybe able to see it.

If you have not looked at the EZX10RF sales page. It does have a users sheet in the Resources Tab of the sales page and information on what you can do.

There is a special option to link an X10 address to a EZX10RF. In the Link Management Tab.

My EZX10RF module is very old and I don't think I can do much with it for testing. Goes all the way back to SimpleHomeNet their former name.

https://smartenit.com/product/ezx10rf/