Question for heavy z-wave users

[firstone]

Do you use ISY as a primary controller or do you have some other controller? I have quite a few z-wave devices now - 5 bali blinds, 2 schlage locks, 3 aeotec tri-sensors and 5 leviton plug-ins and still having issues. Sometimes things stop working for no-reason. When I run heal some devices mostly or never complete (primarily locks). I've already put leviton plug-in in close proximity to each lock because I've read that it's a good idea to have repeater next to wireless device. I know some people here believe in superiority of z-wave so kind of wondering what am I doing wrong. Or if the issues are specific to ISY z-wave module and/or firmware.

[KeviNH]

19 minutes ago, firstone said:

Do you use ISY as a primary controller or do you have some other controller?

I've already put leviton plug-in in close proximity to each lock because I've read that it's a good idea to have repeater next to wireless device.

Primary (only) controller.

Make sure the repeater(s) nearest the lock(s) explicitly support "Beaming" -- e.g. the Leviton DZPA1 or DZPD3 should be fine.

When all else fails, try putting fresh, high-quality, batteries in the lock.

[simplextech]

46 minutes ago, firstone said:

I have quite a few z-wave devices now - 5 bali blinds, 2 schlage locks, 3 aeotec tri-sensors and 5 leviton plug-ins and still having issues.

Are the bali blinds powered or battery?  Different rooms across the house or mostly same room? (only valid if powered).

Otherwise I see 5 powered devices that actually contribute to building the z-wave mesh.  Battery devices do not repeat and do nothing for building a strong mesh with multiple communication routes.  The biggest issue most people have is not having enough powered devices.

[lilyoyo1]

51 minutes ago, firstone said:

Do you use ISY as a primary controller or do you have some other controller? I have quite a few z-wave devices now - 5 bali blinds, 2 schlage locks, 3 aeotec tri-sensors and 5 leviton plug-ins and still having issues. Sometimes things stop working for no-reason. When I run heal some devices mostly or never complete (primarily locks). I've already put leviton plug-in in close proximity to each lock because I've read that it's a good idea to have repeater next to wireless device. I know some people here believe in superiority of z-wave so kind of wondering what am I doing wrong. Or if the issues are specific to ISY z-wave module and/or firmware.

I only use the Isy for control when it comes to zwave. I've found that poor communication generally is due to poor mesh. I don't know how spread out your home is but you may need more hardwired devices. If you aren't getting communication errors, I would try moving them around.

Since wireless devices are asleep usually, the isy will not heal those during the process unless you wake them up. Once they wake up, the Isy will then include them in the heal.

[firstone]

Thank you for your replies. Let me be more specific. I have 5 Leviton DZPD3-2BW, which support beaming. All 5 bali blinds are outlet powered. Which is not to say I'm confident they act as repeaters. With that in mind, most of the time, direct commands work. Locks can lock, unlock and write user code. Blinds open and close on commands and sensors trigger programs (most of the time). Leviton "repeaters" react to on/off. Like, I said, 2 of repeaters are located near locks.

Where it doesn't work:

1. Occasionally commands won't succeed.

2. I can open ISY console and it will say "Cannot communicate with device xyz" and exclamation mark. Sending direct command to that device fixes it.

3. Locks cannot be queried for status or pretty much anything else.

4. Heal z-wave: Leviton units succeed 95% of the time, blinds succeed 80% of the time, locks 30% and trisensors - never. Which maybe they require hard button press because that's what it takes to pair/unpair/write parameters. But it's not very practical to do while doing Heal.

With that in mind, what can I do. Add more Leviton plug-ins? I don't know where I would put them. Basically, my set up worked exactly the same way with 2 leviton plug-ins to get route from isy in the basement into first and second floor. I've added 3 more, hoping reliability would increase. And it really didn't. Not noticeably anyway. Not sure if adding even more of those will do anything. 

Not I can judge their placement because sometimes all locks and blinds do neighbor updates and sometimes they do not in same configuration. Am I concentrating on healing too much? But what else can I do? Is there any tool that will show neighbors to kind of figure out if some repeaters aren't placed correctly?

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, firstone said:

Not I can judge their placement because sometimes all locks and blinds do neighbor updates and sometimes they do not in same configuration. Am I concentrating on healing too much? But what else can I do? Is there any tool that will show neighbors to kind of figure out if some repeaters aren't placed correctly?

RF is a funny thing and doesn't always signal in the same way.  Signals can reflect and change and not go where they went yesterday.... this is why having more repeater capable devices with a mesh network is important.  To note battery powered devices do not participate in the network heal because they are sleeping.  You would have to wake each one up and do the heal repeatedly to get each one included and that would just be a royal PITA.  Having strong powered repeaters is key here and Z-Wave Plus devices that will use explorer frames to auto-heal the network as needed.

What else can you do?  Are there tools?  Oh this is a rabbit hole you may not want to go down.... there are plenty of tools and documentation and information on deep diving into Z-Wave, mapping your network and even sniffing the z-wave traffic.  This all depends on how deep you want to go. 

Most of the time these issues all turn out to be a mesh issue.  You may actually need another repeater closer to the ISY as well.

[firstone]

I guess what I'm trying to get to is - is there easy, or at least, not overly expensive way to figure out if placing repeater in location x is doing something or not. Like I said, I've added 3 repeaters with questionable benefits. I don't know if adding any more will help unless I know exactly where to put them. 

[lilyoyo1]

15 minutes ago, firstone said:

I guess what I'm trying to get to is - is there easy, or at least, not overly expensive way to figure out if placing repeater in location x is doing something or not. Like I said, I've added 3 repeaters with questionable benefits. I don't know if adding any more will help unless I know exactly where to put them. 

There are tools that you can use. The problem is that it's cheaper to buy more devices than it is to buy diagnostic equipment. Because you are getting comm errors, I would point to your mesh. For me, it's still cheaper to buy more modules than it is to spend hours moving stuff around and healing

[firstone]

So you're suggesting to get 5-10 more plug-in modules and just stick them all over basically?

[simplextech]

22 minutes ago, firstone said:

So you're suggesting to get 5-10 more plug-in modules and just stick them all over basically?

The question is how much money and time do you want to put towards this?  Is it cheaper for you to buy 5-10 more repeaters and hope for the best or is it cheaper to buy the necessary tools to diagnose the network and plan accordingly which may equal out to still needing to buy 5-10 more repeaters.....

What z-wave board do you have in your ISY?  The older 300 or the newer 500 series?

Are the Leviton plugs Z-Wave Plus?

What about the Bali blinds?  Z-Wave Plus?

Battery devices don't matter as they do not repeat.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, firstone said:

So you're suggesting to get 5-10 more plug-in modules and just stick them all over basically?

Im not saying how many you would need. I dont know. In addition to what Simplextech asked, the things I look at are distance between devices, how many walls are between them. Are there things that could potentially reflect the signal, etc. I tend to build out my network with multiple pathways just in case 1 becomes corrupt. Instead of just getting standard repeaters, why not get some potential use out of it with plug in appliance modules or something? That way you get the benefit of repeating without feeling like you're wasting money on devices that just "sit there". If additional locations will cause devices to be exposed and unplugged, I would suggest going with the GE zwave plus receptacles. They blend in well and you dont have to worry about someone crashing your system by it being unplugged.

Troubleshooting comes down to what matters to you. As pointed out earlier, you can spend all day moving stuff around and healing to no avail. You would then still have to buy more products. For me, its simply cheaper to spend an extra 200 bucks on 3 or 4 devices and go about my day, than spend hours trying to make something work.

Time is money

[firstone]

3 hours ago, simplextech said:

The question is how much money and time do you want to put towards this?  Is it cheaper for you to buy 5-10 more repeaters and hope for the best or is it cheaper to buy the necessary tools to diagnose the network and plan accordingly which may equal out to still needing to buy 5-10 more repeaters.....

What z-wave board do you have in your ISY?  The older 300 or the newer 500 series?

Are the Leviton plugs Z-Wave Plus?

What about the Bali blinds?  Z-Wave Plus?

Battery devices don't matter as they do not repeat.

It's 500 board and all my devices are z-wave plus. I'm not sure bali devices repeat. Those are somfy motors. But since they can be either USB or battery pack powered they might not repeat.

[firstone]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I look at are distance between devices, how many walls are between them. Are there things that could potentially reflect the signal, etc. I tend to build out my network with multiple pathways just in case 1 becomes corrupt. Instead of just getting standard repeaters, why not get some potential use out of it with plug in appliance modules or something? That way you get the benefit of repeating without feeling like you're wasting money on devices that just "sit there". If additional locations will cause devices to be exposed and unplugged, I would suggest going with the GE zwave plus receptacles. They blend in well and you dont have to worry about someone crashing your system by it being unplugged.

Thanks, @lilyoyo1. But I guess I understand the theory. I'm having issues with practical side. Is there like a magic formula where you need to place devices x feet apart minus y feet for every wall? 

As far as plug-ins, all mine are actually dimmers, nor just "repeaters". I don't really have much use for controlling plug-in devices. I literally have two appliances that need to be controlled. Receptacles idea is nice but it's harder to move a receptacle from place to place than a plug-in module. I might get a couple though. 

[asbril]

13 minutes ago, firstone said:

Thanks, @lilyoyo1. But I guess I understand the theory. I'm having issues with practical side. Is there like a magic formula where you need to place devices x feet apart minus y feet for every wall? 

As far as plug-ins, all mine are actually dimmers, nor just "repeaters". I don't really have much use for controlling plug-in devices. I literally have two appliances that need to be controlled. Receptacles idea is nice but it's harder to move a receptacle from place to place than a plug-in module. I might get a couple though. 

Wall switches or dimmers will do the job. The point about plugin devices is that, at practically the same price, they are more useful than repeaters, because they have a function (ex. on/off) AND repeat, while repeaters just repeat. Secondly I doubt that there is a magical formula to determine where you need  a repeating device. Radio waves have their mysterious ways and walls and furniture interfere with the signal. In my home I have more than 60 Zwave devices (wall switches, plugins, sensors, etc) and I never have a mesh problem.

When you start building your Zwave network, I do recommend that have a few plugin devices as you can "play" with them at different locations and find what works best in your home.

When you buy your Zwave devices, make sure to get Zwave Plus. They should have a better range and also include Instant Status Reporting. Soon we will have devices that work with Zwave 700 and offer even better range. However,  the quality of your Zwave network is set by the lowest Zwave technology. This means that if you have a Zwave Plus device that connects to your ISY through a repeating older Zwave device, then you may not benefit from all the features of the Zwave Plus device.

Last recommendation.... Whenever adding, replacing or changing a Zwave device, do not forget to perform a Healing, as this will choose the optimum route in your mesh network. lillyoyo1 may want to add to my comments, as he is more knowledgeable than I am.

[lilyoyo1]

10 hours ago, firstone said:

Thanks, @lilyoyo1. But I guess I understand the theory. I'm having issues with practical side. Is there like a magic formula where you need to place devices x feet apart minus y feet for every wall? 

As far as plug-ins, all mine are actually dimmers, nor just "repeaters". I don't really have much use for controlling plug-in devices. I literally have two appliances that need to be controlled. Receptacles idea is nice but it's harder to move a receptacle from place to place than a plug-in module. I might get a couple though. 

You're welcome. I concur with everything that Asbril says. Unfortunately there is no magic formula.  I have a write up post on here called tips and tricks if you want to read more. Basically I assume 10 feet for every wall. Obviously that can change (sometimes more and sometimes less) but from my experience that has been avg. With that said, I am more conservative in my numbers as I do not want spend time troubleshooting something where I already know what the end result will be. 

Just to give some background and examples on how funny RF is; Ive done brand new houses (early on) that will have perfect signal in it with just a few devices. Once the furniture is moved in and people are around, the signal turned to trash. I've seen places where devices that were relatively close need more repeaters than other devices that were twice as far. Over time and experimentation, Ive learned how to make an educated guess at the distance I will achieve but still plan for the worse. All Zwave plus devices helps greatly. However if any device is less than a plus device, then you lose any benefits of greater range. 

If you have no use for a plug in device, I definitely recommend using in wall receptacles. Add them to your ISY prior to installing. That way, you dont mess up the decor of your home by having a plug in module just sitting there doing nothing and you dont have to worry about someone unplugging it. As Asbril said, you can also use wall switches. If you have a closet light that cuts down on distance, ge has an occupancy switch that you can use. This gives you the ability to use motion to turn on a light as well as repeat the signal. 

I tell people often, automation is an investment in time and money. If you want to be happy with your experience, you do have to pay for it. There is no way around it. 

[madcodger]

Having lived through a similar experience, I'd buy a two-pack of Aeotec repeaters, and install them rather equally spaced in the property between the ISY and the problem devices. Then perform a heal a couple of times, and wait a couple of days, with many commands being issued to various devices over a couple of days. For me, that turned an unreliable network into rock solid. I really don't care for Aeotec devices, except those little repeaters, which are great.

I've come to believe that most devices - even wall switches and outlets - are only "so-so" at repeating. But those little repeaters? Solved my z-wave issues in two different buildings, and two different z-wave networks.

[Kentinada]

So I'm just entering the world of Z-wave.  I ordered my Z-wave daughter card for my ISY994i. I also ordered an outdoor Z-wave motion sensor.  But initially, that's all I'd have.  I'm guessing from all this discussion that my outdoor motion sensor won't work well - if at all - because of the lack of a Z-wave mesh network.  I use INSTEON plugs and switches all over the house.  Those don't do a think for Z-wave as I understand but they function within an INSTEON mesh network as controllers/repeaters. 

• Sounds like I'm going to need to build up a similar Z-wave network.  Correct? 
• I have a fair investment in INSTEON.  Have most people dumped INSTEON in favor of Z-wave?
• I've seen differing opinions on Aeotec devices.  What is the brand of choice in your (you all) opinion? 
• Does the Plus in Z-wave Plus mean it does repeating?

Sorry to bombard with questions but this group has great knowledge and can help newbie's like me avoid many mistakes. 

Thanks!

[dbuss]

7 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

• Sounds like I'm going to need to build up a similar Z-wave network.  Correct? 
• I have a fair investment in INSTEON.  Have most people dumped INSTEON in favor of Z-wave?
• I've seen differing opinions on Aeotec devices.  What is the brand of choice in your (you all) opinion? 
• Does the Plus in Z-wave Plus mean it does repeating?

• Sounds like I'm going to need to build up a similar Z-wave network.  Correct? Yes, you will need to build a Z-Wave mesh network. Keep in mind that Z-Wave is RF only and that can be challenging at times. The reason for this is that there are so many things that can attenuate RF signals. This can it more difficult to get a good signal in some areas. Dual band Insteon devices are not as prone to this issue.
• I have a fair investment in INSTEON.  Have most people dumped INSTEON in favor of Z-wave? Some people have discontinued using Insteon. I have not. For my likes, preferences and uses I find a combination of Insteon and Z-wave works best for me.
• I've seen differing opinions on Aeotec devices.  What is the brand of choice in your (you all) opinion? I like Aeotec. However, I have other manufacturers of Z-Wave devices also.
• Does the Plus in Z-wave Plus mean it does repeating? Most plug-in and hard-wired Z-Wave devices are repeaters. Battery powered Z-Wave devices are not repeaters. A Z-Wave Plus device means it will repeat Z-Wave Plus features. Since you are just beginning with your Z-Wave network, I would use only Z-Wave Plus devices. Another Z-Wave feature, that not all devices have, is the ability to update firmware.

[mwester]

In order:

- Yes, you'll need multiple always-awake devices for your mesh.  The exact number varies, but I'd suggest planning on at least 4 additional.  If you're just starting out, make sure they are all "Plus" devices, along with your outdoor motion sensor.  There are z-wave repeaters, just like there are Insteon access points.  But, just like Insteon access points, repeaters are not a wise investment -- for about the same money, you can get a plug-in switch, or plug-in dimmer, that will at least do something interesting in addition to repeating the signal.  For starting out, I'd suggest plugin-type devices -- easier to move to where they'll be useful as you play with them.  An alternative might be your garage door -- the garage-door "barrier" z-wave devices are far, far superior to what Insteon sells as a "garage door kit" (and far safer).

- I can only speak for myself -- I am in the process of eliminating my Insteon investment.  I've found Insteon is just too unreliable, and demands far too many filterlincs in my house.  So, as my Insteon devices fail, I'm replacing them with Z-Wave.  It isn't practical to mix them in a single area -- for aesthetic reasons, as well as making programming and keeping them in sync too much trouble.  So I've been doing it on a room-by-room basis, where each room or area switches from Insteon to Z-Wave at once.  One of the major advantages has been the three-way lights -- Z-wave offers a lower-cost remote (secondary) switch that doesn't need any programming to operate as a three-way.  The biggest advantage has actually been the GE/Jasco occupancy sensor -- it replaces a normal wall switch but includes a motion detector, which for me has eliminated the troublesome Insteon motion detectors and the in-wall Insteon switches/dimmers with just a single unit (which works as you'd expect without any scenes or setup.  The only area that's going to be problematic is the kitchen/family-room area, which has many Insteon KPLs -- there's just not a good replacement for the Insteon KPL.  Maybe that will be solved in the future.  (By the way, if you're wondering why I feel that the lack of scene setup is a positive feature -- there's been a number of threads mentioning the need for maintaining the Insteon/ISY stuff once the primary hobbyist is no longer able to do that... not all of us are still in our youth, it seems.   )

- I've a few Aeotech devices, and few GE/Jasco devices -- all good.  The Enerwave devices are not, I regret purchasing those.  If there's a trend or pattern that reflects what works versus what results in only regrets -- it's price.  Whodathunk it You get what you pay for, in general!

- No, Plus does not indicate repeating capability -- the Plus indicates a set of features, but all non-battery-powered z-wave devices can do repeating.  Z-Wave Plus only runs in full "plus" mode, though, if you have all "plus" devices.  So if you're starting out, make sure everything is "plus".  I have a mix, so really don't get much (if any) benefit from the z-wave plus mode.

[asbril]

24 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

So I'm just entering the world of Z-wave.  I ordered my Z-wave daughter card for my ISY994i. I also ordered an outdoor Z-wave motion sensor.  But initially, that's all I'd have.  I'm guessing from all this discussion that my outdoor motion sensor won't work well - if at all - because of the lack of a Z-wave mesh network.  I use INSTEON plugs and switches all over the house.  Those don't do a think for Z-wave as I understand but they function within an INSTEON mesh network as controllers/repeaters. 

• Sounds like I'm going to need to build up a similar Z-wave network.  Correct? 
• I have a fair investment in INSTEON.  Have most people dumped INSTEON in favor of Z-wave?
• I've seen differing opinions on Aeotec devices.  What is the brand of choice in your (you all) opinion? 
• Does the Plus in Z-wave Plus mean it does repeating?

Sorry to bombard with questions but this group has great knowledge and can help newbie's like me avoid many mistakes. 

Thanks!

Yes,  a single Zwave device that is at a certain distance from the ISY may not work well. My usual suggestion is to get a few plug-in devices that you put between your sensor and the ISY. Plug-in Zwave devices have  a purpose (a lamp for instance) and repeat the Zwave signal. Don't forget to perform a "Heal" after adding devices.

I personally "dumped" Insteon, but there is no reason to do so, at least not right away. The beauty of ISY is that Zwave and Insteon work both in ISY and you can combine them in programs.

I don't have Aeotec among my more than 70 Zwave devices. I mostly recommend GE/Jasco and Homeseer, as well as Inovelli.

All Zwave devices (except battery operated) repeat the signal. BUT as you start from Zwave zero, ONLY get Zwave Plus which gives you a better and more powerful signal. The thing with Zwave is that Zwave and Zwave PLus work together, but operate together at the lowest common technology. In other words, you get the best performance when all your devices are Zwave Plus.

[Kentinada]

@dbuss Thanks!   What about beaming?  Is that another feather I need to look for on Z-wave devices? I hear that is important if I want to use door locks.

[dbuss]

3 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

@dbuss Thanks!   What about beaming?  Is that another feather I need to look for on Z-wave devices? I hear that is important if I want to use door locks.

Beaming is important for door locks and most if not all Z-Wave Plus devices that are repeaters will also support beaming.

[simplextech]

29 minutes ago, dbuss said:

Beaming is important for door locks and most if not all Z-Wave Plus devices that are repeaters will also support beaming.

There are a lot of Z-Wave devices that do NOT support beaming.  This is something you should verify against the Z-Wave product DB before purchase.  To name a few there are many switches/dimmers that do not support beaming.  Many think they do but they don't.  This leads to lots of "why aren't my locks working".  Well because you have ZERO devices that support beaming.

https://products.z-wavealliance.org/

 

[Kentinada]

6 minutes ago, simplextech said:

There are a lot of Z-Wave devices that do NOT support beaming.  This is something you should verify against the Z-Wave product DB before purchase.  To name a few there are many switches/dimmers that do not support beaming.  Many think they do but they don't.  This leads to lots of "why aren't my locks working".  Well because you have ZERO devices that support beaming.

https://products.z-wavealliance.org/

 

I just ordered 2 GE Enbrighten Z-Wave Plus Smart Switch 1-Outlet Plug-Ins from Amazon.  I looked this up on the alliance page and it says nothing about beaming.  But someone asked on Amazon if it supported beaming and this was the answer: "As a requirement of the Z-Wave Alliance, all Z-Wave Plus products must support Beaming, regardless of the manufacturer, so rest assured as long as you are getting a Z-Wave Plus device, you will have this feature. " 

[simplextech]

8 minutes ago, Kentinada said:

I just ordered 2 GE Enbrighten Z-Wave Plus Smart Switch 1-Outlet Plug-Ins from Amazon.  I looked this up on the alliance page and it says nothing about beaming.  But someone asked on Amazon if it supported beaming and this was the answer: "As a requirement of the Z-Wave Alliance, all Z-Wave Plus products must support Beaming, regardless of the manufacturer, so rest assured as long as you are getting a Z-Wave Plus device, you will have this feature. " 

The Amazon answer is BS.

There is no requirement per Z-Wave specifications for Plus devices to support beaming (currently) for 500 series certified devices.  The certification specifications have been updated with the new 700 series chip and requirements to mandate a lot of features that were previously optional.  Beaming is now mandated but was previously optional.

The Z-Wave Alliance product DB is the source of record and information for all Z-Wave devices.

Issue now is that 700 series devices are just now starting to come to market.  Aeotec has 2 and there's some other companies that have 1 or 2 as well but not common products.  Until gateway's also have 700 series controllers in them the 700 series devices won't be of any benefit either.