Another power fail question

[TexMike]

Storms rolled through last night causing crazy power issues. Looks like it's time to get https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WLD32RP/?coliid=I3TR56MLH2SZLS&colid=26A7L23SNB5ML&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it mentioned in https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/29351-no-lights-on-isy/

Additionally, does anyone know how to tell when a sensor has no status from a program? Specifically a battery operated Z-Wave open close sensor will have no status after reboot. I tried not on and not off and that doesn't work. Not responding doesn't work and I didn't expect it to on a battery operated device. Any way to tell from a program?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[madcodger]

My sensors always needed to be activated (just opened or closed, etc.) to show up again. Querying via program doesn't work for battery devices, IME.

Also, small UPS for ISY has been a great investment for me. Includes surge suppression, as well.

Edited April 12, 2020 by madcodger

[TexMike]

Exactly, but I'm looking for a way to tell which sensors have not been initialized and still have no status.

[Teken]

Is this from the perspective of being remote and wanting to know?


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[TexMike]

Yes, exactly. If I'm home I know what needs to be done, but if gone I could tell someone to open/close some things. If all away I would need to disable my away mode to prevent unwanted conditions. When I get the UPS it won't be such an issue, but it's also a curiosity since I can't figure out how to detect the uninitialized status.

[Teken]

56 minutes ago, TexMike said:

Yes, exactly. If I'm home I know what needs to be done, but if gone I could tell someone to open/close some things. If all away I would need to disable my away mode to prevent unwanted conditions. When I get the UPS it won't be such an issue, but it's also a curiosity since I can't figure out how to detect the uninitialized status.

Well, I can only share with you how some of this was addressed by me in my personal environment. First, I tracked the incoming line voltage from the POCO through no less than five independent systems as this insured a measure of fail over and validation. Once I knew line voltage was interrupted I tracked for how long it was off as this dictates what systems will react and start a sequence of load shedding within the homes super structure.

Based on how long the line voltage was interrupted various systems in the home will remain powered or removed from power to extend the runtime of various UPS systems.

Many sub systems are left in a state of *Fail Safe vs Fail Secure* as I didn't want a loop in voltage where its common to see power flicker on - off. Anyone who has experienced such electrical events knows that's a perfect example & time of letting out the magic smoke in electronics. So for me for some very specific appliances / devices once power / voltage is interrupted those devices must be manually brought back on line by activating SSR relays, outlets, switches, modules.

Things which you want a *Fail Safe* mode to continue to operate once power / voltage is restored like sump, furnace, fridge, freezer, etc.

Other expensive but none critical appliances like washer, dryer, dishwasher, microwave, A/V, etc all use *Fail Secure* mode and must be manually brought back on line.

The next step was creating various programs in different systems to send information to the ISY Series Controller to act upon a line voltage issue. Related, but not, is the very common program to track the up time of the ISY Series Controller. Based on this it can execute the Query All program to identify power line devices but as noted by others it does not allow you to know the status of battery operated devices.

One very easy and novel power monitoring device is using an Insteon I/O and once relay closes it signals the ISY Series Controller. This method to monitor power loss obviously has limits but it was designed and conceived for a very specific instance like a GFCI tripping on a dedicated circuit. 

I'll add more later its dinner time . . .  

[TexMike]

Thanks, much food for thought as usual from you. One more question, if you don't mind, answer at your leisure, Amazon is predicting May 3 for the UPS delivery. When I install the UPS,  I will have the opposite problem, ISY will be up but all powered devices  and sensors will be offline. Any gotchas to be aware of in that scenario?

Thanks,

Mike

[Teken]

15 hours ago, TexMike said:

Thanks, much food for thought as usual from you. One more question, if you don't mind, answer at your leisure, Amazon is predicting May 3 for the UPS delivery. When I install the UPS,  I will have the opposite problem, ISY will be up but all powered devices  and sensors will be offline. Any gotchas to be aware of in that scenario?

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike,

At first blush all of the previous last states would be seen by the ISY Series Controller. I can't say if that is good or bad as this comes down to user preference and expectation. I prefer to see the last known state of the device in my controller instead of a blank state which is common after a reboot / power outage. As noted early on if one has the appropriate programs in place some of the unknowns can be eased on the user.

Heart Beat: If you haven't began tracking the heart beat on various battery operated devices. This would probably be a good time to do so as this will at least give you a indicator as to RF range, battery status, and operations which obviously gives you a status obviously not on-off / open-close but its something.

PLM UPS: Some have gone the route of placing the 2413S PLM on a UPS. Doing so more often than not will remove the power line communications due to internal filtering from the UPS. So at that point the 2413S PLM will be receiving its Insteon signals solely by RF. In this forum there have been a few people doing this for a couple years with great success. I did this for one large install and as of this writing its been working fine for that client. The one thing that we did plan out was the UPS was a higher quality double conversion pure sine wave model vs the more common PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) square wave UPS. As noted filtering or the lack there of will either allow you to see dual band or not. In our case it was really dumb luck there was very little filtering on the unit to impact the power line signal.

It goes without saying testing and validation is paramount if one is expecting a specific outcome. Keep in mind in this install the client had very specific needs and wants which was to first protect the 2413S PLM from dirty power. Next, was being able to receive RF signals from the battery operated devices regardless of the line power. Lastly, having the 2413S PLM allowed the whole house generator enough time to come on line to than control the remaining power line only devices in the home.

You may consider a small pure sine wave UPS for the 2413S PLM to address the first two items I called out.   

ISY Uptime: As noted up top if you haven't created a up time counter program this might be a good time to do so. As this will enable you to associate other Insteon / environmental's in the home to the up time of the controller. Obviously this assumes you were going to let the ISY lose power - but your not! LOL

Insteon Power Monitor: This is why I called out using the I/O Linc to monitor the line voltage. Once power is lost and this assumes the ISY, PLM are on a UPS this would allow you to know power somewhere was interrupted. Keeping in mind this doesn't address quick and short outages seen by many people throughout North America. But, its another tool in the Insteon arsenal that allows you to track in a general way what is happening in your home while you're away.

Fail Over: Lastly, as you probably realize this hobby gets pretty expensive solely to *Just Know* ?    This is why I have so many other systems tracking, validating, and sending the current state of the homes electrical system. If there was just one perfect system that anyone could buy with a shoe string budget it surely would have been done by the masses years ago! I've always walked the path from simple & easy to expansive & hard (IF) and when required. For power monitoring that is 100% bullet proof and reliable it really comes down to investment in time and often than not money. ? 

Regardless of all the systems in place it's paramount to test, validate, and be consistent in both as time goes on. For me all of this is standard fair as testing & validation is a large part of my job and how I have been trained in various industries and fields. 

Let us know how the new UPS works in your home and if you also see the low 12 volt output as seen by others. As I might consider picking one up as a testing platform for a unrelated project I have going on now.

 

[TexMike]

Thanks again and I'll update when the little UPS arrives and I've tested.

[Goose66]

23 hours ago, TexMike said:

Storms rolled through last night causing crazy power issues. Looks like it's time to get https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WLD32RP/?coliid=I3TR56MLH2SZLS&colid=26A7L23SNB5ML&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it mentioned in https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/29351-no-lights-on-isy/

Just out curiosity, why would one want this device over a more traditional line interactive UPS that had 25x the backup capacity for the same price or less? 

[Mustang65]

2 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Just out curiosity, why would one want this device over a more traditional line interactive UPS that had 25x the backup capacity for the same price or less? 

I am not totally sure but this small unit uses electronics to accomplish the same thing that the larger ones with those old technology big power sucking transformers inside, which only last for about 20 minutes (depending on your UPS size). Correct me if I am wrong.

[Teken]

6 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Just out curiosity, why would one want this device over a more traditional line interactive UPS that had 25x the backup capacity for the same price or less? 

For some this is to avoid the whole AC-DC vs DC-DC. I see value for both but like others larger is better for many of us. But, this device is also very small while offering a long run time and also uses lithium cells.

Unless one goes the route for the much (Read Crazy Expansive) lithium UPS systems this is a good compromise for low power consuming units while also being portable.

[Goose66]

Does it avoid the need to use a FilterLinc to protect Insteon? That would reduce the total price.

Also, I was comparing VA to mAH, which obviously (to me now) is not comparable.

I moved my ISY to the utility closet with my electrical panels recently and was just searching for UPSes for it this morning!

EDIT: For anybody finding this post in the future, the 700VA UPS I was considering in the same price range has a 108Wh battery compared to a 98Wh battery for this unit. I am sure there are additional losses in all the conversion from AC-DC-AC-DC and 120V to 12V to 120V to 12V so this is a pretty good solution cost-per-Wh wise.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Goose66

[TexMike]

For me it was eliminating the AC-DC-AC-DC and eliminating the need and potential failure of the wall-wart AC-DC converter. Plus small form factor.

[Teken]

18 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Does it avoid the need to use a FilterLinc to protect Insteon? That would reduce the total price.

Also, I was comparing VA to mAH, which obviously (to me now) is not comparable.

I moved my ISY to the utility closet with my electrical panels recently and was just searching for UPSes for it this morning!

I think the only way to tell is to have the unit plugged in and wait and see. I can only speak for myself but all of my gear is on a limited amount of filters in the home. I've been fortunate enough to have just two Filter Linc's in my entire home. Primarily because I took the time to test, validate, and monitor long term if any of the electronics were going to impact the Insteon network.

Well, besides a lot of the hardware are on dedicated circuits! ? 

[Goose66]

@Teken Don't know how one tests and validates long term impact on anything Insteon given the lack of diagnostic tools and the fact that Insteon is so flaky, varying in performance from day-to-day.

[Teken]

33 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

@Teken Don't know how one tests and validates long term impact on anything Insteon given the lack of diagnostic tools and the fact that Insteon is so flaky, varying in performance from day-to-day.

From personal experience I have relied on lots of the available tools from various systems and hardware. Along with long term observations and documenting what is being seen. In no specific order I follow these best practices as much as possible.

New Hardware Validation:

- Level 3 logs: I clear and run this level of logging prior to see what the current activity is.

- Scene Test: While viewing the level 3 logs I run the various scenes and see how many hops are left prior to any hardware addition. This offers me a base line of the controller to reference too.

- Physical Test: Newer hardware offer blink (red) on errors as such manually test all hardware to see that I see (green) on every system. This offers me a base line of physical operations.

- Add New Hardware: Now using the two above I rinse and repeat to see if there are increases in hop count, error LED, or failed scenes operating.

- RF / EMI Testing: I have two old school methods of detecting spurious noise / EMI. One is simple AM - FM portable radio which I tune to a open channel. If there is a huge burst or constant noise received by the radio I document this. I do the same thing with a wired radio in case something is being injected on the power line. I follow up with a very small florescent tube light fixture I used to use for automotive diagnostics. Anytime the is carbon tracking on the distributor housing. RFI / EMI would surely follow and show up on the pulsing tube light.

I also have a industrial RFI / EMI meter which measures the same but rarely break it out because it simply offers the strength, frequency, etc. Which is good to quantify factually what the emissions are vs just WAG. ?

- Stop Look Listen: It goes without saying anybody who has ever been a field tech in almost any industry knows and lives: Stop, Look, Listen. I've probably written about watching various model / brands of bulbs for years. If I hold a power supply and feel it buzzing or making a odd noise - its gone. If I see LED bulbs making the same, or pulse, strobe, flicker - its gone.

- Insteon Diagnostic Tool: For a very brief period of time Smartlabs offered a KPL box which offered limited diagnostic tests. I have one of these tools which for what it was - was OK. it's currently with another forum member for the last five years! ?? Regardless, depending upon hardware type and model the user has the ability to turn on-off power line vs RF on those pieces of hardware. Doing so will identify if there are RF vs Power Line issues if present.

- 4 Tap Beacon Test: Following the 4 tap beacon test has also brought to light noise makers / signal suckers when present when confirming proper coupling / bridging of the split single phase electrical system. Keeping in mind ideally a person should see bi-directional confirmation of coupling when initiated. I've found this is not always the case so using all of the above best practices offers another piece of insight.

Hope some of this helps the forums members . . . 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Teken

[TexMike]

@Teken After predicting May 3rd, the little UPS arrived today. Static (no load) output voltage on a 12V plug is 11.25V on AC power and 11.0V using whatever charge the battery had when it arrived. So it is a little low. I've heard the ISY is very tolerant, but it might be a couple of days before I get it set up. I can't see my Polisy wall-wart and couldn't find any input power specs listed, so yet to see if it will also work on the Polisy. I'll update when I get it installed.

[Teken]

@Teken After predicting May 3rd, the little UPS arrived today. Static (no load) output voltage on a 12V plug is 11.25V on AC power and 11.0V using whatever charge the battery had when it arrived. So it is a little low. I've heard the ISY is very tolerant, but it might be a couple of days before I get it set up. I can't see my Polisy wall-wart and couldn't find any input power specs listed, so yet to see if it will also work on the Polisy. I'll update when I get it installed.

The Polyisy is 12 VDC @1 ampere. Considering it’s a mini computer system let us know how it runs on that DC UPS.


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[TexMike]

Got it installed for the ISY w/o any issue. It's a little scary going from the UDI supplied 5V adapter to 12V, but all input in the forums said it was fine and new ISY's come with 12V.

Polisy is another story, apparently the Polisy does not use a 5.5 mm X 2.1 mm plug. It looks very similar, but I think the center post is larger. I can't find it documented anywhere. Does anyone know?

12V plugs are rated at 2A, so it should be fine when I get the correct cable.

I did take the opportunity to replace the antenna adapter on the Polisy while I had it out with the correct gendered adapter sent by UDI.

[Teken]

Got it installed for the ISY w/o any issue. It's a little scary going from the UDI supplied 5V adapter to 12V, but all input in the forums said it was fine and new ISY's come with 12V.
Polisy is another story, apparently the Polisy does not use a 5.5 mm X 2.1 mm plug. It looks very similar, but I think the center post is larger. I can't find it documented anywhere. Does anyone know?
12V plugs are rated at 2A, so it should be fine when I get the correct cable.
I did take the opportunity to replace the antenna adapter on the Polisy while I had it out with the correct gendered adapter sent by UDI.

Seems to fit perfectly fine here?!?


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[TexMike]

 

 

4 hours ago, Teken said:

 

Seems to fit perfectly fine here?!?


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Did you mean the DC plug or the antenna? I believe all Polisy's shipped with a female antenna adapter on one side, when it should have been male on both. It's difficult to notice since the antenna will screw on just fine, but won't actually make a connection. It's documented in other threads and UDI will ship out a proper adapter.

I found out from UDI Polisy uses 2.5mm and some cables will work for 2.1 and 2.5, so I have one on order for the Polisy. Also UDI confirmed ISY is very tolerant and happy with anything from 5 to 30V.

[Teken]

9 hours ago, TexMike said:

 

 

Did you mean the DC plug or the antenna? I believe all Polisy's shipped with a female antenna adapter on one side, when it should have been male on both. It's difficult to notice since the antenna will screw on just fine, but won't actually make a connection. It's documented in other threads and UDI will ship out a proper adapter.

I found out from UDI Polisy uses 2.5mm and some cables will work for 2.1 and 2.5, so I have one on order for the Polisy. Also UDI confirmed ISY is very tolerant and happy with anything from 5 to 30V.

Hi Mike,

Sorry, I should have clarified the DC barrel jack appears to be the same size and fits from both the ISY Series Controller & Polyisy.  

[TexMike]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

Hi Mike,

Sorry, I should have clarified the DC barrel jack appears to be the same size and fits from both the ISY Series Controller & Polyisy.  

UDI confirmed center pin on Polisy is 2.5 and ISY is 2.1 mm. Some cables will work on both, but the cables supplied with the UPS would not work on Polisy. I'll update when cable arrives. I don't anticipate any problem since the UPS port is rated for 2A. Next project is to keep internet up, which means modem, router in one location and an ethernet switch in the office where the ISY and Polisy are. Thinking ahead when the Polisy does everything, it should be able to fall back on WiFi which would be a little easier to implement.

[Teken]

13 minutes ago, TexMike said:

UDI confirmed center pin on Polisy is 2.5 and ISY is 2.1 mm. Some cables will work on both, but the cables supplied with the UPS would not work on Polisy. I'll update when cable arrives. I don't anticipate any problem since the UPS port is rated for 2A. Next project is to keep internet up, which means modem, router in one location and an ethernet switch in the office where the ISY and Polisy are. Thinking ahead when the Polisy does everything, it should be able to fall back on WiFi which would be a little easier to implement.

The fail over portion was one action item on my list. I haven't validated the Polisy will operate as I hope when I remove the tethered Ethernet connection. So if you get to that let us all know as that would be great to know there's one less thing to worry about. Which also provides a measure of fail over and redundancy for our little toys!

Oh these first world problems . . .