Cannot control Remote Plug-in On/Off Modules

[hchain]

I use 3 remote plug-in On/Off modules (2634-222) to trigger relays to turn my pool pumps (240V) ON/OFF.

The modules work everywhere inside/outside the house, except in the pump control cabinet.

There are 4 wires entering the enclosure: 2 phases, 1 neutral, 1 ground.

I measure approx. 240 volts between the 2 phases, 115 V between any phase and neutral or ground (where I would like to connect the modules), and a few volts between neutral and ground.

I previously had X10 to control these pumps and was not having any issue (except for reliability, which is the reason why I switched to Insteon).

I am now using an extension cord to power/control these modules from a wall plug directly across from the pool cabinet.

Any idea what may cause this problem?    

Thanks for any insight.

RV

[Teken]

I use 3 remote plug-in On/Off modules (2634-222) to trigger relays to turn my pool pumps (240V) ON/OFF.
The modules work everywhere inside/outside the house, except in the pump control cabinet.
There are 4 wires entering the enclosure: 2 phases, 1 neutral, 1 ground.
I measure approx. 240 volts between the 2 phases, 115 V between any phase and neutral or ground (where I would like to connect the modules), and a few volts between neutral and ground.
I previously had X10 to control these pumps and was not having any issue (except for reliability, which is the reason why I switched to Insteon).
I am now using an extension cord to power/control these modules from a wall plug directly across from the pool cabinet.
Any idea what may cause this problem?    
Thanks for any insight.
RV

Assuming this isn’t a signal sucker / noise maker issue. Complete the 4 tap beacon test to confirm proper bridging of the split single phase electrical system In your home.

The details are outlined in the full users manual found at Smarthome.

What are the results?


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[hchain]

I will try that but I don't understand: Shouldn't it work on one of the 2 phases even without phase bridging? 

[Teken]

I will try that but I don't understand: Shouldn't it work on one of the 2 phases even without phase bridging? 

 

This assumes one of the 120 VAC lines is on the same leg as your main system. This is why it’s important to have confirmed proper coupling / bridging throughout the home.

 

I’ve always tried to insure coupling is seen on every floor, zone, room, when possible - Both Ways.

 

As you may be very surprised to find when you complete the 4 tap beacon test it will tell you it’s seen and fine one way vs nothing going the other way.

 

Regardless, before you go whole hog for (4 tap) verify like you did by bringing in an extension cord and plug in each unit to confirm all modules operate correctly.

 

If so, you know they work. If not delete the device, hard reset per users manual, add it back, and confirm normal operations within the home.

 

Rinse and repeat by locating it back by the pool.

 

It works - your golden

 

Doesn’t work?!? Begin the 4 tap beacon test and see the results.

 

 

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[hchain]

Yes, the modules work everywhere else and I have around 30 Insteon spread over the house working fine.

I will do that 4-tap test to see what I find. Honestly, I don’t understand your first statement “this assumes one of the 120v lines is on the same leg as your main system (ISY, correct?).  Since I only have 2 phases in the house, it has to be on one of the 2... can I have more than 2 phases coming in?

Will tap tap tap tap ...

RV 

[Teken]

Yes, the modules work everywhere else and I have around 30 Insteon spread over the house working fine.
I will do that 4-tap test to see what I find. Honestly, I don’t understand your first statement “this assumes one of the 120v lines is on the same leg as your main system (ISY, correct?).  Since I only have 2 phases in the house, it has to be on one of the 2... can I have more than 2 phases coming in?
Will tap tap tap tap ...
RV 

To be more specific your home has a single split phase electrical system. Which provides (approx) 120 throughout your home on each leg. While traditionally you would see both legs (240) at the pool pump not everyone wires to expected norms or follows NEC / CEC.

Regardless, completing the 4 tap beacon test will simply affirm proper coupling / bridging at that location. If you have another outdoor outlet plug one of them for testing.

Than see if the other modules can be operated - simple test.

Keeping in mind none of this addresses a noise maker / signal sucker condition at that specific location by the pool.


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[Brian H]

It is remotely possible you have a power line signal issue. If the pool electrical cabinet is metal. It may also be blocking the Insteon RF.

I have seen some housing developments reportedly bring fed by a 3 phase system. Each home uses two of the three phases Neutral and Ground.  In that case the voltage is 208 VAC between the two lines, So your finding close to 240 VAC does indicate it is a split single phase.

[larryllix]

Even worse a bunch of RF transmitters inside a 2:3  or 1:1 ratio metal box is a recipe for disaster with standing waves. Newer Insteon devices have options to disable the RF transmitters. X10 (powerline only) may work like a charm but Insteon may not in these situations.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

 

To be more specific your home has a single split phase electrical system. Which provides (approx) 120 throughout your home on each leg. While traditionally you would see both legs (240) at the pool pump not everyone wires to expected norms or follows NEC / CEC.

Regardless, completing the 4 tap beacon test will simply affirm proper coupling / bridging at that location. If you have another outdoor outlet plug one of them for testing.

Than see if the other modules can be operated - simple test.

Keeping in mind none of this addresses a noise maker / signal sucker condition at that specific location by the pool.


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If there is any doubt (it is possible, usually only in high density areas, to have three phase), go look at you electrical utility meter. It will say 1 phase or 3 phase on the face.

[hchain]

Well, I am confused...

The module does not answer because it's not powered.

I have 113V and 119V between each phase and neutral, respectively, with no load connected.

BUT when I plug a module (either phase and neutral), the voltage drops to almost 0.

I never tried to activate the module manually, so I never realized that.

Any clue as why this is happening?

 

Also, to answer the responses from Brian and Larry:

- The modules work inside the enclosure when powered from a wall plug.

- I can't see if it is split phase or 3 phases on the meter. I attach a picture of the meter.

RV

[Teken]

Well, I am confused... The module does not answer because it's not powered.

I have 113V and 119V between each phase and neutral, respectively, with no load connected.

BUT when I plug a module (either phase and neutral), the voltage drops to almost 0.

I never tried to activate the module manually, so I never realized that.

Any clue as why this is happening?

 

Also, to answer the responses from Brian and Larry:

- The modules work inside the enclosure when powered from a wall plug.

- I can't see if it is split phase or 3 phases on the meter. I attach a picture of the meter.

RV

 

 

Hi,

 

Sorry I’m a little confused can you take a picture of the actual site. Also, how many outlets are present there 3? If you measure one outlet with your DMM what is the voltage seen and measured?

 

Please measure all the outlets and report back with pictures.

 

Also based on the meter it appears to be a standard 120 / 240 VAC service.

 

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[hchain]

I attach some pictures and explanations.

Let me know if this makes sense or if you need other input.

Thanks a lot for your time.

RVPool_Connections.pdf

[Teken]

I attach some pictures and explanations.

Let me know if this makes sense or if you need other input.

Thanks a lot for your time.

RVPool_Connections.pdf

 

Hi,

 

In the included PDF (thank you) you indicated the two legs as white & black. Normally white is reserved for neutral return while red is intended to denote the other 120 VAC leg to provide 240 VAC.

 

Was the wiring completed by a certified electrician?

 

NOTE: If you unplug one of the Insteon outlets you’ll notice it operates assuming it’s not damaged because there is a double tap plug.

 

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[hchain]

this is the way it was when I bought the house 8 years ago. The pool was built at the time the house was built in 1986. I don’t know who did the install but it was most likely a licensed electrician. I don’t see a builder not doing so. But that’s a guess, I don’t know. 

[Teken]

this is the way it was when I bought the house 8 years ago. The pool was built at the time the house was built in 1986. I don’t know who did the install but it was most likely a licensed electrician. I don’t see a builder not doing so. But that’s a guess, I don’t know. 

Well, you can do something very simple just to test. Hook up just one of the switches and see if it works. If it does remove it from the system and do the same for the other using the other pair.

I would assume you’re going to see each outlet works correctly when connected to just one leg.


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[hchain]

Sorry, I am not following you. 
 

but first, I will open the main panel and see if I can locate the feed to the pool. Nothing is marked but I should be able to find it by switching off each breaker. If the color scheme is not correct at the cabinet, there is possibly a box somewhere in between in which the wires have been spliced and incorrectly connected. Again, I don’t see an unlicensed electrician doing the initial install. If the pool equipment has been moved at one point in the past 30 years, which is a possibility, this may have been done by the pool guy then. 

let me do some research but I think the colors is a good clue

RV 
 

 

[larryllix]

4 hours ago, Teken said:

Hi,

Sorry I’m a little confused can you take a picture of the actual site. Also, how many outlets are present there 3? If you measure one outlet with your DMM what is the voltage seen and measured?

Please measure all the outlets and report back with pictures.

Also based on the meter it appears to be a standard 120 / 240 VAC service.

 

The meter shows 240V...that is the potential coil. This indicates a single phase voltage rating. 3-phase would show 120v or 120/208v

3W = 3 wires. That is the configuration of your service. Two live wires and one neutral. Usually single phase, but could also be two out of three phases. But then it would indicate 2 element or 3 phase, 3 wire and 120v potential/voltage coil.

50TA = not familiar with that one but likely a 50 Ampere nominal current rating. 200A is likely the peak current rating and assumed.

1.0Kh. this is the value of one pulse found on an LED/LCD spot or hidden connection for techs. Each pulse indicates 1.0 kWh has passed through the meter. Some have suction cup pickups to capture this pulse and send it to monitoring equipment or test equipment. Ahhh I see the edge of a tech connection. That round metal thing on the right has two photocells on it. Usually will send out iR or visible light pulses after triggered by a tech. Many meters will do this after being triggered by a strong magnet swiped across the bottom (underneath) about 5 o'clock on the meter. This may also trigger the meter to show peak demand, instantaneous demand (Watts), current on each phase, last time it was reset, if power failed, if it was ever upside down etc... on the face readout. Handy information for some.