Solution for no neutral at switch

[larryllix]

14 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I'm confused, how does this led stabilizer address no common wire?

Is the 1.8 watts a number you are using for an Insteon switch?  At one point, I wired up 10 Insteon switches on my bench simultaneously to a Kill-A-Watt and it came in at .7 watts each based on letting it run over night and doing the math.

@io_guy would an arc-fault circuit interrupter pop with leakage to ground?  I thought they were designed to detect noise associated only with arcing.

 

I already explained the 1.8 Watts and linked a second time to the wiring method.

Arc fault breakers are combination GFCI and arc detect (noise) breakers.

[apostolakisl]

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I already explained the 1.8 Watts and linked a second time to the wiring method.

Arc fault breakers are combination GFCI and arc detect (noise) breakers.

Arc fault breakers are definitely not GFCI breakers.

EDIT: just to be clear, GFCI and Arc can be part of the same physical breaker, but when you purchase a breaker labeled AFCI, you are not getting GFCI.  And don't be confused by "combined AFCI" label, this means it is combining different arc types, not GFCI. 

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

I am missing something.  If you did not originally post this as a load path via ground, then how does this solve the "no neutral" problem, the topic of this post? 

These devices provide a stable additional current to a 2-wire dimming switch. There is no ground involved. The thread is about "no neutral".  to which these devices can resolve but it would require a 2-wire switch in a 2-wire wired switchbox installation.

[larryllix]

29 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Arc fault breakers are definitely not GFCI breakers.

EDIT: just to be clear, GFCI and Arc can be part of the same physical breaker, but when you purchase a breaker labeled AFCI, you are not getting GFCI.  And don't be confused by "combined AFCI" label, this means it is combining different arc types, not GFCI. 

I have never seen an arc fault breaker that didn't include both. I believe this is what @io_guy's   comment about the ground current tripping them was based on. Perhaps there are differences in Canada to US sourcing.
https://www.lowes.com/pl/Circuit-breakers-Power-distribution-circuit-protection-Electrical/4294722478

[oberkc]

38 minutes ago, larryllix said:

These devices provide a stable additional current to a 2-wire dimming switch. There is no ground involved. The thread is about "no neutral".  to which these devices can resolve but it would require a 2-wire switch in a 2-wire wired switchbox installation.

I still must be missing something.  The instructions (unless I am missing something) all show connection between hot and neutral.  The instructions specifically advise against wiring in series with the load.  I do not see how this would be wired in a no-neutral situation.  At this point, it is more a curiosity thing on my part.  Perhaps it is more clear to the others.

[larryllix]

11 minutes ago, oberkc said:

I still must be missing something.  The instructions (unless I am missing something) all show connection between hot and neutral.  The instructions specifically advise against wiring in series with the load.  I do not see how this would be wired in a no-neutral situation.  At this point, it is more a curiosity thing on my part.  Perhaps it is more clear to the others.

These devices are analogous to adding a small incandescent bulb to the LED bulb load. They are wired at the bulb fixture where a neutral is available, for the no-neutral situation at the switch, or at the switch where three wires are available there. They can also provide enough trickle current to keep a dimmer functioning properly.

Several wiring diagram  options were included with the advert I linked to.

Here is the one that was discussed in the 2nd and 3rd post https://www.amazon.com/Aeotec-Bypass-Resistor-switches-flickering/dp/B0716BDNFB/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=aeotec+bypass&qid=1589203694&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A33RI86K4PO1EO&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFJQVlONDdEWFVLNkImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxNTM1MDExVzY5MzRYWFZKTzA3JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA2MzcyODYyR1pDUzg3NFZIS1UyJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

 

[asbril]

19 minutes ago, larryllix said:

These devices are analogous to adding a small incandescent bulb to the LED bulb load. They are wired at the bulb fixture where a neutral is available, for the no-neutral situation at the switch, or at the switch where three wires are available there. They can also provide enough trickle current to keep a dimmer functioning properly.

Several wiring diagram  options were included with the advert I linked to.

Here is the one that was discussed in the 2nd and 3rd post https://www.amazon.com/Aeotec-Bypass-Resistor-switches-flickering/dp/B0716BDNFB/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=aeotec+bypass&qid=1589203694&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A33RI86K4PO1EO&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFJQVlONDdEWFVLNkImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxNTM1MDExVzY5MzRYWFZKTzA3JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA2MzcyODYyR1pDUzg3NFZIS1UyJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

 

The way I read this is that this would work with the no-neutral Inovelli switch, which requires a minimum wattage to work in one's Zwave network.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

I have never seen an arc fault breaker that didn't include both. I believe this is what @io_guy's   comment about the ground current tripping them was based on. Perhaps there are differences in Canada to US sourcing.
https://www.lowes.com/pl/Circuit-breakers-Power-distribution-circuit-protection-Electrical/4294722478

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-Homeline-20-Amp-1-Pole-Combination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker/50311127

This is not ground fault. "Combination" means in-series and in-parallel arc, not AFCI plus GFCI.  This is different than https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-Homeline-20-Amp-1-Pole-Dual-Function-AFCI-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker/50311123 which is "dual" function AFCI GFCI.

[oberkc]

5 hours ago, larryllix said:

They are wired at the bulb fixture where a neutral is available,

And how did I not recognize that option!  Ugh.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

And how did I not recognize that option!  Ugh.

The thread shifted when some introduced wiring to a ground wire, and then the confusion seemed to escalate with responses to responses that were intended for the original post being responded to.

 

"All posts are certified to be "virus-free" by  UDI  COVID-994 antivirus forum software"

[Craigb]

AFCI and CAFCI (Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters and Combination Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters) are NOT GFCI (Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters). 

AFCI's protect against arcing in the circuit. Combination CAFCI units add protection of line to line in addition to line to neutral and line to ground arcs.

The current 2020 US National Electrical Code requires CAFCIs or dual function CAFCI/GFCI breakers for living areas, and GFCI breakers for unfinished spaces without exception other than a dedicated circuit feeding only a fire alarm panel.

That said, even though they are not technically ground fault interrupters, either an AFCI or a CAFCI will trip with excessive ground fault current.  They will trip with >30 mA current to ground or so. 

There are also available dual function GFCI/AFCI breakers and outlets that are BOTH CAFCI and GFCI protectors. These will protect against arcs and will also trip as required at Ground Fault currents of 2 to 5 mA

CAFCI/AFCI protection is now required for any new or altered circuit in living space within dwellings.  This also applies to adding an outlet to an existing circuit - in this case the entire existing circuit must have CAFCI protection added.

Switches requiring a neutral connection will trip AFCI/CAFCI and/or GFCI if you wire the neutral to the ground instead, or if you interconnect the neutral and the ground somewhere in the circuit.

 

[redridge]

Wow never did come back to this for fear of fireballs coming my way (LOL!).  Really interesting.