New House - New Automation Choices

[zparsons]

I'm lucky enough to be building a new custom home and the time has come to figure out my automation approach.

I went with Insteon in my current place, largely selected for the dual band wired/wireless support. I've been mostly happy with that choice although there are occasional signal hiccups, and I don't love my switch options. Obviously I love my ISY and want to keep that as the hub. My Polisy is gathering dust in a drawer because the ISY v5 build that was required wasn't stable enough and my house can't be a tech lab all the time. I use custom ISY programs and network resources to control all my Hue lights. I also make use of the Portal for some Amazon Echo integrations. I use eK ISY for my mobile controller, it's generally reliable but not very intuitive for others in my house.

So my question is, what should I be thinking about this time around? Is Insteon still holding on even though the product line seems moribund? Is it time to go full ZWave? Has anyone found a reliable way to use Brilliant Switches with the ISY? What are you using for your mobile controller? What would you do if you could start over from scratch?

Thanks in advance for gifting me with your opinions.

[madcodger]

Here's one user's input/experience... We purchased an additional property with two existing buildings (remote vacation house and large garage with apartment) last year, which led me to explore my automation choices again. After experimentation with several controllers, I stayed with the ISY simply because of its reliability. Other controllers (Homeseer and SmartThings) failed/went down temporarily/rebooted/lost device connections often enough to make them unreliable and/or annoying, while the ISY has served me well across three properties now. I left it in each home we sold, and the owners have seemed happy with it, learning the tech enough to use it reasonably well. The user interface options aren't great (I have long complained about that) but it can't be beat for reliability, based on my experience.

In my case, I decided to abandon Insteon (used in previous two homes) and go with z-wave simply to get access to a variety of hardware manufacturers. I grew very tired of Smarthome being my only option, and had replaced enough icon switches over the years with the more expensive "regular" Insteon devices to have a bad taste in my mouth for Smarthome. My PLM lasted for years but died right after we sold the last house. I'm not thrilled with it being the Achilles heel of a system, which it is. And, I didn't like the idea of having all my switches tied to just one option, in the event they had future troubles, were sold, etc.

Z-wave has been reliable with the use of two ISYs (one for each building) and two Aeotec repeaters in each building. I don't find the "repeating" capability of z-wave devices to be what it's alleged to be, but the dedicated repeaters have given me very close to 100% reliability of signal. I can't remember the last time a transmission was missed.

You could also look at Crestron or Control4 or similar, but that seems to tie you into a much greater expense, proprietary equipment, the need for dealers, etc. I decided to avoid that in my case.

I should also add that if you want to connect your automation to your security system, I could not have been less impressed with Elk in its current form/ownership, and that's after being a diehard Elk fan for almost two decades. After trying for months to work with them, I personally found their dealer network to be very weak in many parts of the country, yet their willingness to support the DIY community is a shadow of its former self compared to years past. I'm paying a local installer to rip out a Napco system and install a DSC system that can integrate with ISY via a third-party device and a nodeserver. I'm hoping UDI starts offering direct alarm integrations other than Elk, but the odds of that are nearly zero, I'd say. Elk does integrate well (having done it twice before) but I was stunned at what I perceived as their current low level of interest in supporting DIY customers or having a robust dealer network, so they lost a longtime fan in my case. DSC is a large manufacturer, and the ability to use nodeservers has opened things up considerably for a variety of devices to work with the ISY.

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

This question had been posed many times so I won't go into the particular differences between insteon and zwave. 

The questions I'd ask myself is when choosing anything is what am I looking for in a device. While subjective, I start off with what matters most which is presentation. Currently, when it comes to look, feel, and paddle response, I haven't found a zwave device that beats insteon in that price range on those. 

Next is features. The main things I look for is what does a switch give in regards to doing it's primary job. I worry first about devices turning on, off, and dimming. Currently, no zwave device offers the ease of programming and customizing of ramp rates and dim levels. Due to the nature of insteon scenes, you can have a multitude of different ramp rates and light levels for any given situation with a single device or multiple devices.

Secondary features are important so at that point, it comes down to what features do you want. Are you looking for features to say you have features or something specific. If it's something specific that overrides what you can do with the primary function then that's your answer. 

Personally, I feel insteon is better for lighting while zwave is better for everything else. Zwaves popcorn effect vs insteon's synchronized on/off capability makes zwave worthless in the grand scheme of things. 

Insteon can't touch zwave on sensors and door locks. There's simply no comparison. While I use mostly insteon outlets, I do make extensive use of zwave outlets for my mesh network. In a couple of locations I have zwave occupancy switches for the same purpose. Which brings me to my last thought....

You have a controller that can take advantage of the best device for any given situation. Why limit yourself to either or?

[Teken]

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This question had been posed many times so I won't go into the particular differences between insteon and zwave. 

The questions I'd ask myself is when choosing anything is what am I looking for in a device. While subjective, I start off with what matters most which is presentation. Currently, when it comes to look, feel, and paddle response, I haven't found a zwave device that beats insteon in that price range on those. 

Next is features. The main things I look for is what does a switch give in regards to doing it's primary job. I worry first about devices turning on, off, and dimming. Currently, no zwave device offers the ease of programming and customizing of ramp rates and dim levels. Due to the nature of insteon scenes, you can have a multitude of different ramp rates and light levels for any given situation with a single device or multiple devices.

Secondary features are important so at that point, it comes down to what features do you want. Are you looking for features to say you have features or something specific. If it's something specific that overrides what you can do with the primary function then that's your answer. 

Personally, I feel insteon is better for lighting while zwave is better for everything else. Zwaves popcorn effect vs insteon's synchronized on/off capability makes zwave worthless in the grand scheme of things. 

Insteon can't touch zwave on sensors and door locks. There's simply no comparison. While I use mostly insteon outlets, I do make extensive use of zwave outlets for my mesh network. In a couple of locations I have zwave occupancy switches for the same purpose. Which brings me to my last thought....

You have a controller that can take advantage of the best device for any given situation. Why limit yourself to either or?

You know in 2020 there hasn't been any thing to argue with you about?!?  Back on point, if this was me I would be going the route of hybrid smart panel / your flavor of home automation hardware of choice whether it be Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee. My long term plans are to migrate to this sort of hardware model as it offers higher reliability without issues with power line or any sort of RF technology.

BLE is for stupid people . . . WiFi is just for the lazy . . . RF based Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee is just a compromise . . . Wired direct and managed by the smart panel is 100% bullet proof and isn't impacted by noise makers, signal suckers, bridging, filtering, etc.

  

[asbril]

3 hours ago, Teken said:

Wired direct and managed by the smart panel is 100% bullet proof and isn't impacted by noise makers, signal suckers, bridging, filtering, etc.

Definitely best choice for a new house, but is there an equivalent of ISY options of groups, scenes, etc etc

[simplextech]

3 hours ago, Teken said:

BLE is for stupid people . . . WiFi is just for the lazy . . . RF based Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee is just a compromise . . . Wired direct and managed by the smart panel is 100% bullet proof and isn't impacted by noise makers, signal suckers, bridging, filtering, etc.

I can't find any fault or issue with this.... dang....

Although I will throw in that if it's new install depending on budget I would suggest you look at a Lutron RadioRa 2 system or if you have a really big budget a Lutron HomeWorks QS system.  With QS you can do wired and RF mixed and the Lutron RF is a lower frequency and VERY reliable.  I've never had an issue and I don't know anyone that has when things are installed correctly.  You can't beat the versatility of the Pico Remotes either like the Insteon remotes but at $15 a pop they multiply like rabbits

 

[zparsons]

On 5/28/2020 at 1:07 PM, Teken said:

 Back on point, if this was me I would be going the route of hybrid smart panel / your flavor of home automation hardware of choice whether it be Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee. My long term plans are to migrate to this sort of hardware model as it offers higher reliability without issues with power line or any sort of RF technology.

BLE is for stupid people . . . WiFi is just for the lazy . . . RF based Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee is just a compromise . . . Wired direct and managed by the smart panel is 100% bullet proof and isn't impacted by noise makers, signal suckers, bridging, filtering, etc.

  

Teken, when you say "hybrid smart panel" are you talking about something like a Lutron RadioRA 2 or HomeWorks, or something else? The terminology is unfamiliar to me and a quick googling didn't turn up anything immediately relevant.

[Teken]

4 minutes ago, zparsons said:

Teken, when you say "hybrid smart panel" are you talking about something like a Lutron RadioRA 2 or HomeWorks, or something else? The terminology is unfamiliar to me and a quick googling didn't turn up anything immediately relevant.

@zparsons

This is an example of something similar to what I am speaking about; https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/load-centers   This is what I plan on migrating to once Project Falcon is under way: https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/pa144001en.pdf  The biggest difference between the Leviton vs Eaton is the breakers can be operated On - Off.

The Leviton smart panel can only turn the breaker off so this negates the whole concept of managed power control. Let me know if you need more insight or feedback as this is something I am truly passionate about.

Which is to make Energy Monitoring / Energy Management truly sexy!

[zparsons]

41 minutes ago, Teken said:

This is an example of something similar to what I am speaking about; https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/load-centers   This is what I plan on migrating to once Project Falcon is under way: https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/pa144001en.pdf  The biggest difference between the Leviton vs Eaton is the breakers can be operated On - Off.

@Teken, I had not seen the Eaton product, but I had looked at the Leviton Load Center. For the Load Center I hadn't really considered it from an automation capacity, largely I was just thinking about the energy monitoring functionality. 

Looks from the PDF that Eaton is trying to tie in home automation switching to their panel infrastructure, which might be compelling if it worked well and was extensible.

Thanks for sharing. 

[Teken]

@Teken, I had not seen the Eaton product, but I had looked at the Leviton Load Center. For the Load Center I hadn't really considered it from an automation capacity, largely I was just thinking about the energy monitoring functionality. 

Looks from the PDF that Eaton is trying to tie in home automation switching to their panel infrastructure, which might be compelling if it worked well and was extensible.

Thanks for sharing. 

The Eaton R-Series smart panels have been in production, sale, and deployed in thousands of large enterprises buildings for more than eight years across North America.
As you noted the system has integrated conditional logic very similar to the ISY Series Controller. Energy monitoring and control are also core services which integrate with existing industry standard communications and building management software.
The system is very much stand alone and can function to manage any load with conditional logic, scheduling, which plays an important role for ToU, Security, and Energy Management.
My plan is to integrate this smart panel with the ISY Series Controller & Insteon to allow a hybrid system. Over time the goal is to see what loads and circuits can move away from Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee.
I already know the system can automatically turn any breaker on-off. What I need to confirm is if their next generation breaker will allow native dimming or will rely on their super ugly dedicated switches.
Hence the need for a hybrid system until everything is sorted out. For me the HA portion is less critical with respect to lighting vs having complete command & control of every branch circuit in the home.
Energy prices will continue to rise and there is only one thing that can help offset that cost which is solar. The most tangible and impactful step with respect to energy a person can do is either limit or go without.
None of us have worked so hard to get where we are today to simply go without. But we temper that knowing we can manage our costs given the chance with technology.
Those who must endure incredible Time Of Use (ToU) Rates. Know full well the financial impact running something during peak pricing has on the monthly pocket book.
Having a system like this will help in (DR) Demand Response, to help the grid load shed to avoid rolling black outs. Obviously those who must endure ToU rates can also reduce that by turning off high loads within that limited window like AC, HWT, Dryer, etc via Smart Panel.
Adoption, only happens when something is easy and integrate well and becomes - cheap!
This isn’t cheap but it’s the next big step of getting dead serious vs playing around.
For me all of that is great but that isn’t the primary reason I’m Installing one.

The main driver is for security & safety.

Anyone who has experienced a surge event from a utility pole / lightning strike know the untold damage this can have on a home & family. Having a system like this in place will allow me to disconnect all loads from the POCO.

Once in place this will be the fifth ring of surge protection in my home. All of this will be integrated with the ISY Series Controller using all of the fantastic Node Servers that allow me to track lightning.

The system will react in a tiered and staged fashion and disable none critical loads based on the distance of the storm. I already have the same setup in place now on a smaller scale which was the proof of concept for this project.

It’s been a really long road!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

The Eaton R-Series smart panels have been in production, sale, and deployed in thousands of large enterprises buildings for more than eight years across North America.
As you noted the system has integrated conditional logic very similar to the ISY Series Controller. Energy monitoring and control are also core services which integrate with existing industry standard communications and building management software.
The system is very much stand alone and can function to manage any load with conditional logic, scheduling, which plays an important role for ToU, Security, and Energy Management.
My plan is to integrate this smart panel with the ISY Series Controller & Insteon to allow a hybrid system. Over time the goal is to see what loads and circuits can move away from Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee.
I already know the system can automatically turn any breaker on-off. What I need to confirm is if their next generation breaker will allow native dimming or will rely on their super ugly dedicated switches.
Hence the need for a hybrid system until everything is sorted out. For me the HA portion is less critical with respect to lighting vs having complete command & control of every branch circuit in the home.
Energy prices will continue to rise and there is only one thing that can help offset that cost which is solar. The most tangible and impactful step with respect to energy a person can do is either limit or go without.
None of us have worked so hard to get where we are today to simply go without. But we temper that knowing we can manage our costs given the chance with technology.
Those who must endure incredible Time Of Use (ToU) Rates. Know full well the financial impact running something during peak pricing has on the monthly pocket book.
Having a system like this will help in (DR) Demand Response, to help the grid load shed to avoid rolling black outs. Obviously those who must endure ToU rates can also reduce that by turning off high loads within that limited window like AC, HWT, Dryer, etc via Smart Panel.
Adoption, only happens when something is easy and integrate well and becomes - cheap!
This isn’t cheap but it’s the next big step of getting dead serious vs playing around.
For me all of that is great but that isn’t the primary reason I’m Installing one.

The main driver is for security & safety.

Anyone who has experienced a surge event from a utility pole / lightning strike know the untold damage this can have on a home & family. Having a system like this in place will allow me to disconnect all loads from the POCO.

Once in place this will be the fifth ring of surge protection in my home. All of this will be integrated with the ISY Series Controller using all of the fantastic Node Servers that allow me to track lightning.

The system will react in a tiered and staged fashion and disable none critical loads based on the distance of the storm. I already have the same setup in place now on a smaller scale which was the proof of concept for this project.

It’s been a really long road!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Energy savings isn't much of an issue for me. I know if I use something its costing me money. With what solar costs and these smart panels, I would probably save more in regards to utility bills but not nearly enough to make up for what both systems initially cost and too maintain

[Teken]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Energy savings isn't much of an issue for me. I know if I use something its costing me money. With what solar costs and these smart panels, I would probably save more in regards to utility bills but not nearly enough to make up for what both systems initially cost and too maintain

I believe lots of this comes down to first can someone financially do it. Next, does it make any financial sense if ROI is the main driver. If you live in places where utility rates are more than $0.20 per KWH the large investment starts to make sense. It comes down to priorities too as this isn't something people often consider or think about. More than twenty years ago you would be hard pressed to find more than five people in a neighborhood that had any sort of home run cabling for X & Y.

Never mind any kind of Home Automation system in place . . .

To put into perspective my home was the first house built in our sub division which was great in so many ways and terrible in others. But, one of the best things of a new development was being able to see all the different building materials, methods, and technology being used / not used. In my area more than 90% of all the homes used plain old tar paper wrap that has been used for decades. ? 

One would think *Hey this is just a $100K home so what* - No!

The starting price at that time for a brand new home was $300K and my area was surrounded by homes breaking $2.8 million yet some of them used plain old tar paper?!? You just got to be out of your freaking mind to have so much money and so little brains. 

Here's the problem Energy Monitoring / Energy Management has never been sexy! Spending money on the building infrastructure & envelope isn't sexy! People want the marble floors, granite counter, all of the fancy touchy feely stuff. People have a hard time justifying things they can't touch or interact with like Piles, uFer Grounding, Tyvek, Roxul, Delta wrap, etc.  

For the OP having a blank canvass to incorporate all of the best in class technology and techniques will over the long run pay off in terms of personal comfort, reduced energy costs, and safety & security.

Now, selling the wife on that extra $1000 - $12,000K that might be a hard sell until you provide math! ?

[lilyoyo1]

38 minutes ago, Teken said:

I believe lots of this comes down to first can someone financially do it. Next, does it make any financial sense if ROI is the main driver. If you live in places where utility rates are more than $0.20 per KWH the large investment starts to make sense. It comes down to priorities too as this isn't something people often consider or think about. More than twenty years ago you would be hard pressed to find more than five people in a neighborhood that had any sort of home run cabling for X & Y.

Never mind any kind of Home Automation system in place . . .

To put into perspective my home was the first house built in our sub division which was great in so many ways and terrible in others. But, one of the best things of a new development was being able to see all the different building materials, methods, and technology being used / not used. In my area more than 90% of all the homes used plain old tar paper wrap that has been used for decades. ? 

One would think *Hey this is just a $100K home so what* - No!

The starting price at that time for a brand new home was $300K and my area was surrounded by homes breaking $2.8 million yet some of them used plain old tar paper?!? You just got to be out of your freaking mind to have so much money and so little brains. 

Here's the problem Energy Monitoring / Energy Management has never been sexy! Spending money on the building infrastructure & envelope isn't sexy! People want the marble floors, granite counter, all of the fancy touchy feely stuff. People have a hard time justifying things they can't touch or interact with like Piles, uFer Grounding, Tyvek, Roxul, Delta wrap, etc.  

For the OP having a blank canvass to incorporate all of the best in class technology and techniques will over the long run pay off in terms of personal comfort, reduced energy costs, and safety & security.

Now, selling the wife on that extra $1000 - $12,000K that might be a hard sell until you provide math! ?

If it was 1-12k the math is easy to do. But it's not. If a home is so small that having a smart panel and solar costs 12k are you really saving that much on an energy bill that may be 75-150 bucks max?  That coupled with the fact that many people barely make it 5-10 years in the same home, they'll never get that money back.

For large homes where you're looking at 30+. I remember someone came to the house trying to sell us solar. Long story short, after breaks it would've been around 45k. They talked about how much we would save (it was alot) etc. He went over their finance terms and our savings would've paid for the equipment. At the end of the day, we give up a cost that we can control for one (by using less energy) for a bill that will be there for a long time.

I'm with you in that more should go into meeting the home itself energy efficient from the ground up. Outside of that I just can't see where its worth it.