Transmission path diagnostics?

[lhranch]

Is there any way to find out from a hub whether a remote Insteon device (simple switch) is reachable by powerline, by radio, or both?

I just replaced a Decora-style dimmer switch in an awkward outdoor location. The new switch seems to be working better, and I have the old switch on a testbed in my shop where it, too, appears to be working (but of course it is now on the indoor grid and much closer to other radio-band devices).

The old switch suffered from bizarre connectivity issues reported earlier, and the reset procedure didn't fix it (in fact, it took it entirely offline, though both the reset switch operation and the location were so physically awkward that I cannot be 100% sure I performed it completely).

I am curious to determine if the failure mode was that one of the switch's comm interfaces went bad and the other path was just naturally spotty, so I can figure out whether the old unit is worth saving for an application where only the remaining path is required.

[lhranch]

I spoke too soon. Now I'm seeing (on the old switch in the testbed) exactly the same connectivity issues reported earlier. I start up the ISY Launcher, and half the time the first thing it tells me is "Warning: Cannot communicate with Old Pool Sw (MAC). Please check connections." Yet, all the controls in the device window work (On, Off, Fast, the rheostats) so clearly the hub can communicate, although every so often it gives me the same complaint again, but then next time it will work. The associated switches and iPhone app all work, maybe not the first time, but no more problematically than other devices in the household.

What's the best way to figure out what is going on?

Edited June 21, 2020 by lhranch
Clarify which switch

[Teken]

7 minutes ago, lhranch said:

I spoke too soon. Now I'm seeing exactly the same connectivity issues reported earlier. I start up the ISY Launcher, and half the time the first thing it tells me is "Warning: Cannot communicate with Old Pool Sw (MAC). Please check connections." Yet, all the controls in the device window work (On, Off, Fast, the rheostats) so clearly the hub can communicate, although every so often it gives me the same complaint again, but then next time it will work. The associated switches and iPhone app all work, maybe not the first time, but no more problematically than other devices in the household.

What's the best way to figure out what is going on?

Open the AC and set the error logging to level 3. Activate the offending switch via the AC and watch the level 3 logs for errors. If you see lots of 0 hops left there are issues in that path that need to be resolved.

Noise makers / signal suckers . . .

Always confirm you have proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test as outlined in the full users manual for that specific Insteon hardware. Complete the 4 tap beacon test both ways to observe pass vs fail. All of the newer 2477D incorporate a dual colored LED of green vs red. If the device blinks red this normally indicates a comm failure, missing or broken links, or zero hops left.

In the worst case scenario a red LED can also mean a failing switch . . .

Keep in mind the 2477D is not formally rated to support any load other than incandescent - even though lots of us do so with varying degrees of success!

Completing a scene test while you view the level 3 logs can also offer some insight as to how the system is operating or the lack there of. Anytime I have to come on site to resolve a comm issue I always ask what has been added recently. If the answer is nothing I have the client remove every plug in device and watch the results. If it resolves the issue we simply plug in one item until comms begin to degrade / crash.

If we see no improvement turning off individual breakers until a positive result is seen is the next step. Going this route obviously impacts the coupling / bridging so be aware as things could get worse (that is expected) but more often than not you find that noise maker / signal sucker this way faster. If you have any LED fixtures as painful as it is removing them all and watching what happens is really the only way to know.

Any LED fixture that makes any sort of noise from buzz, hum, hiss, regardless of (IF) they ever created problems should just be removed. If a fixture flickers, blinks, strobes, well that's a given for removal . . .  

[Brian H]

Is the old switch a 2476S, 2476D, Icon 2876S, 2876D, or a ToggleLinc? They are power line only models. All the presently sold ones except the ToggleLinc are Dual Band. Both power line and RF communications.

[lhranch]

You're right -- the old one was a 2476D, which I replaced with a 2477D. The dual band stuff wasn't quite available when I started installing modules. That could explain why it didn't do well out in back of the pool, but it's not doing well on the bench next to me, either.

In trying to take the advice to "Open the AC and set the error logging to level 3. Activate the offending switch via the AC and watch the level 3 logs for errors," I've tried the menus, the manual, and the wiki, and can't find anything about how to set an error log level to anything. The only thing I can apparently do with an error log from the AC is dump it to a spreadsheet file, which doesn't seem conducive to watching errors go by in real time. I can't even find anyplace that tells me the version of the AC I'm running, though I updated it sometime in the past couple of months. (My ISY itself is running 4.7.5). Is there some other tool I don't know about, or a URL that explains stuff I can do with the error log?

[Teken]

1 hour ago, lhranch said:

You're right -- the old one was a 2476D, which I replaced with a 2477D. The dual band stuff wasn't quite available when I started installing modules. That could explain why it didn't do well out in back of the pool, but it's not doing well on the bench next to me, either.

In trying to take the advice to "Open the AC and set the error logging to level 3. Activate the offending switch via the AC and watch the level 3 logs for errors," I've tried the menus, the manual, and the wiki, and can't find anything about how to set an error log level to anything. The only thing I can apparently do with an error log from the AC is dump it to a spreadsheet file, which doesn't seem conducive to watching errors go by in real time. I can't even find anyplace that tells me the version of the AC I'm running, though I updated it sometime in the past couple of months. (My ISY itself is running 4.7.5). Is there some other tool I don't know about, or a URL that explains stuff I can do with the error log?

Tools -> Diagnostics -> Event Viewer -> Level 3: Device Communications Events. Clear the log before starting and initiate the switch via AC / Manual. You can save the results and load them to the forum for others to review.

[lhranch]

Thanks.

Here is a log of the questionable switch while performing:

On

Off

Fast On

Fast Off

Set background LED level 12

Set background LED level 15

This sequence almost always fails after "Fast Off," and the LED level commands are guaranteed to generate grief. In this case the progress bar ran out on the second attempt, and the AC just dropped it with no comment when the clock ran out.

I should stress for clarification that this is the only device that gives me grief, and it gives me the same grief at two widely separated locations on my power grid. I ran the same test on a few other switches, and though I occasionally saw a hops-remaining at 1 or even 0, I never received an error.

ISY-Events-Log.v4.7.5__Sun 2020.06.21 18.32.47.txt

Edited June 22, 2020 by lhranch

[Teken]

Thanks.
Here is a log of the questionable switch while performing:
On
Off
Fast On
Fast Off
Set background LED level 12
Set background LED level 15
This sequence almost always fails after "Fast Off," and the LED level commands are guaranteed to generate grief. In this case the progress bar ran out on the second attempt, and the AC just dropped it with no comment when the clock ran out.
I should stress for clarification that this is the only device that gives me grief, and it gives me the same grief at two widely separated locations on my power grid. I ran the same test on a few other switches, and though I occasionally saw a hops-remaining at 1 or even 0, I never received an error.
ISY-Events-Log.v4.7.5__Sun 2020.06.21 18.32.47.txt

A couple things in the log so any insight would be great. You have a device that is pending a write and failing. Have you identified what that is and tried to resolve it?!?

Pending writes will cause you nothing but grief. On the left hand side of the device tree will indicate which hardware is pending with a green 1011 icon.

Once complete if you have a dual band plugin module place it near that offending switch and let us know if it improves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lhranch]

It was either the same device, or the large handheld remote, which won't update until someone gooses it by hand. It had gray 1011 icons so I goosed it until the queued write completed.

I plugged a spare 2632-222 (which I believe is a dual-band unit) into the same cube tap as the item under test and ran the test again, with the same set of commands (plus an extra On command so I could see if the LED setting succeeded). I still got some errors, though the test ran a lot faster and gave no errors during the LED set portion; however, when it was done, the LED was still weak sauce, so I don't think it succeeded IRL.

ISY-Events-Log.v4.7.5__Sun 2020.06.21 19.21.23.txt

[Teken]

It was either the same device, or the large handheld remote, which won't update until someone gooses it by hand. It had gray 1011 icons so I goosed it until the queued write completed.

I plugged a spare 2632-222 (which I believe is a dual-band unit) into the same cube tap as the item under test and ran the test again, with the same set of commands (plus an extra On command so I could see if the LED setting succeeded). I still got some errors, though the test ran a lot faster and gave no errors during the LED set portion; however, when it was done, the LED was still weak sauce, so I don't think it succeeded IRL.

ISY-Events-Log.v4.7.5__Sun 2020.06.21 19.21.23.txt

 

Looks much better now so is the new switch out by the pool now? If so can you place that (plugin) dual band module somewhere outside to see if everything operates as expected?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lhranch]

4 hours ago, Teken said:

Always confirm you have proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test as outlined in the full users manual for that specific Insteon hardware. Complete the 4 tap beacon test both ways to observe pass vs fail. All of the newer 2477D incorporate a dual colored LED of green vs red. If the device blinks red this normally indicates a comm failure, missing or broken links, or zero hops left.

That was an interesting exercise of which I was unaware. I ran it on the 2632, and discovered that except for one keypad I replaced last week, nothing in my house was new enough to have that red/green LED. I did, however, have a 2487S in the garage that was blinking all of its center buttons, whatever that means. All the other grounds and outbuilding units were too far or too obscured to examine.

[lhranch]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

Looks much better now so is the new switch out by the pool now? If so can you place that (plugin) dual band module somewhere outside to see if everything operates as expected?

Not sure what that would do for me, as the new pool switch is a dual band and isn't acting wonky, so wouldn't act any better with the 2632 nearby.

I infer that the diagnosis is that the old switch is in good shape and the workshop it's in has powerline noise problems. I'd be willing to believe that, because I have a reliable old X.10 switch that works great on the Xmas tree in the main room, but won't work reliably in here to control a simple lamp. The room is electronics-heavy (laser printer, laptop, Mac Mini, UPS, and strip surge protector). I'll test the lashup in a socket in another room tonight.

[Teken]

Not sure what that would do for me, as the new pool switch is a dual band and isn't acting wonky, so wouldn't act any better with the 2632 nearby.

I infer that the diagnosis is that the old switch is in good shape and the workshop it's in has powerline noise problems. I'd be willing to believe that, because I have a reliable old X.10 switch that works great on the Xmas tree in the main room, but won't work reliably in here to control a simple lamp. The room is electronics-heavy (laser printer, laptop, Mac Mini, UPS, and strip surge protector). I'll test the lashup in a socket in another room tonight.

 

If the bulk of your Insteon network is still power line only hardware. It’s imperative to have proper coupling / bridging in all areas, zones, floors. As you noted if there are noise makers / signal suckers placing them on a Insteon filter Linc is key.

 

Placing the dual band plugin module somewhere near the pool switch was intended to confirm if the AC was now operating better in terms of comms.

 

Ideally, that plugin module should be on the opposite electrical leg to help couple the single split phase system.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kclenden]

4 hours ago, Teken said:

Looks much better now so is the new switch out by the pool now?

Looks better but still doesn't look good.  By my count the "Hops Left=" worked out to

• 0 times hops left = 3
• 14 times hops left = 2
• 8 times hops left = 1
• 9 times hops left = 0

If there was direct communication between the device and the PLM you should see Hops Left = 3.  That didn't happen a single time.  But that's not unusual if a power only device is dependent on a RF device to complete the path to the PLM.  What's concerning is the high number of Hops Left = 0 because what comes after that is Failed Communication.  It's also concerning that 55% of the "Hops Left" were less than 2 because that means that even if your device is relying on an RF device to complete the path there is something else that is requiring yet another device to push the response along.  So either you have a noisy power line, or a device with a weak transmitter.

4 hours ago, lhranch said:

I infer that the diagnosis is that the old switch is in good shape and the workshop it's in has powerline noise problems.

Given the devices you've listed in the shop, if none of them are behind a filter, it's reasonable to conclude that a noisy powerline is the issue, but that doesn't account for the problems the device had in the old location, though it sounds like the old location could have its own issues.

Edited June 22, 2020 by kclenden

[lhranch]

I've changed my mind.

I relocated the old 2467D and its test lashup into the breakfast nook. I got the same distribution of hops-left=2 and 1. Then I replaced it with a new 2487S. I got clean hops-left=3 down the line. (I also ran a couple tests on the 2334-2 on the facing wall of the breakfast nook and again got full hops-left.)

I moved the test lashup (2487S) to the workshop where the wiring was suspect, and got hops-left=2 across the board.  

So my final analysis is that the workshop wiring does have minor problems, but the old 2467D is just weak in itself, maybe because it's only single-band, or maybe because it's old and weatherbeaten. I'm going to retire it to "emergency spare" status.

Thanks for teaching me about the existence of the diagnostics log.

Edited June 27, 2020 by lhranch

[lhranch]

On 6/21/2020 at 7:42 PM, lhranch said:

I infer that the diagnosis is that the old switch is in good shape and the workshop it's in has powerline noise problems. I'd be willing to believe that, because I have a reliable old X.10 switch that works great on the Xmas tree in the main room, but won't work reliably in here to control a simple lamp.

Nope, I retract this. The problem isn't the room, it's the ISY no longer being able to run my X.10 modules at all. Something happened in the past year.

[Michel Kohanim]

@lhranch,

ISY communicates with X10 devices through the PLM. Nothing has changed in ISY and therefore the issue can either be the PLM or signal/noise. The first thing you need to try is to move the PLM to a different outlet and one which is not shared with other transformers/power supplies.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Brian H]

If the PLM is on the same circuit as an UPS for the computing equipment. They can frequently absorb both X10 and Insteon power line signals.

I have my UPS on the filtered bottom outlet of a FilterLinc and the PLM in the unfiltered pass through outlet on the front.

[lhranch]

I have a half dozen UPS units in the residence. Right now, the PLM doesn't share a breaker with any of them, but if I had to move it to a more central area, it would be a problem. Of course, I wouldn't put a PLM on the business end of a UPS or surge, but finding out I can't even share the feed side of a UPS is disheartening.

[Brian H]

An UPS may effect the power line signals.  I also have a Portable Air Conditioner. That signal sucks power line signals.

In the age of Dual Band Modules. Insteon RF may cover the setup fine.

It would effect someone like me. As I still have a majority of the original power line only Insteon Modules in use. As I also have X10 addresses in mine that many present models have eliminated. So Access Points are also still in my setup also.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Brian H