Insteon being discontinued?

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, MrBill said:

IMO How positive it is depends on compatibly between new and old and whether or not they toss all the old stuff under the bus.

Agreed, but none of us are empowered other than by *Vote* with your wallets. It really comes down to advertising and brand awareness and how the public takes this on. Roughly speaking if none of us see so called tech rags making videos of Nokia / Smartlabs lighting as you see for Z-Wave / ZigBee.

The market has spoken . . .

Whether they try to make another push to have their wares carried in major retailers vs just available through a virtual sales channel. Again, this will offer some insight as to how serious they are to get the word out on the new brand and hardware offerings.

I'm of the mindset that you use the most pervasive channels like Amazon, Best Buy, Staples, Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc. None of these people have to carry it in store but simply have it in the warehouse / drop ship. So long as they carry the same on their e-commerce sites so its available for purchase.

In 2021 the ease of buying on line is just so easy and reduces wasted space and a outlay of cash to carry inventory when the same can be literally dropped shipped and fulfillment can happen transparently through electronic means. 

[carealtor]

Are we assuming (this being an ISY forum and all) that someone is going to write a Polyglot Node Server for this new line?  Michel has stated that UDI is not going to support new Insteon devices unless SmartLabs cooperates.

(I know I already posted something similar in this thread ? )

[Mustang65]

Is it possible that Nokia is just positioning themselves to purchase/takeover not so SmartHomes for the patents and then throw them and their product line in the dumpster?

Edited July 23, 2021 by Mustang65

[DAlter01]

2 hours ago, LFMc said:

In reference to the Nokia "partnership", I think it foretells a couple of bigger picture issues/opportunities:

1. Nokia would not put the time, trouble or money into an alliance if "insteon is going out of business". They will have had a peak under the Smartlabs financial tent flap to validate their investment's financial security.

2. This partnership would not exist if Smartlabs was refusing to share it's technology. Maybe this is just the first door opening up a crack so that, if successful,  Smartlabs may be open to other licensing opportunities going forward. 

3. <edited/added item>  Also being Nokia is a European company, wouldn't this also mean the adoption of European power standards as an option?  If so, that would put that issue to rest also. <end edit>

To me at least, this is all very good news for the continuance of Insteon. 

Given this, can someone please lock down this topic? ?? 

Lock down the topic? NEVER!  Seriously though, you make some good points.  I do believe this means Smartlabs has the financial horsepower and a strong business plan to take the technology into the next decade or two.  Execution, of course, is critical.  There are mines along the way that can blow up their business plan, but it can't be denied that the technology has a new lease on life with more money and what seems to be a good vision and partner behind it.  

However, I'm not convinced there is anything released so far indicating Smartlabs will share its technology.  I'm sure Nokia has it and has a clear understanding of it, but that doesn't mean it will be an open platform for anyone other than their partnership to use.  One would hope they developed their plan to open it up and extract a fee from anyone wanting to use the technology (true scalability).  But, nothing I've seen points in that direction.  And, based on how Michel reported his conversations with Rob, there is some evidence it will not be open.  Now that the new product has been launched, hopefully that launch will include a process to allow open integration.   The next 6-12 months will be interesting.

One thing I disagree with, this does not mean the continuation of Insteon.  Compared to a month ago when the company hadn't released a press release for three years, ran out of stock of nearly every item, and has stated they will no longer sell a key integration component (2413s) due to low sales, am I encouraged, yes, almost estatic.  But, all of the new information is about a different system which borrows heavily on the technology used by Inston, that's it.  The new brand may, or may not, work well, with Insteon.  So, good for Smartlabs.  For Insteon, it is to early to say it will be a viable platform for the next 5+ years.

The recent history of fewer and fewer SKU's has already reduced one's ability to build a functional system.  If that history continues, which it may, with even just a few more SKU's cancelled, Insteon will quickly become an unworkable platform for "old school" enthusiasts like many on this forum as there simply will not be enough hardware other than dimmers, kaypads, and lamplincs for one to contemplate its continued use, or a new install.  If the two techs mesh together, fantastic, but something deep in my head is telling me that a seemless/workable coexistance on the same install seems unlikely.

I hope for the best.

 

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, carealtor said:

Are we assuming (this being an ISY forum and all) that someone is going to write a Polyglot Node Server for this new line?  Michel has stated that UDI is not going to support new Insteon devices unless SmartLabs cooperates.

(I know I already posted something similar in this thread ? )

I doubt they release the information on it anytime soon to develop a nodeserver for it. Down the road maybe but not initially

[MrBill]

15 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I doubt they release the information on it anytime soon to develop a nodeserver for it. Down the road maybe but not initially

The interesting place to watch will be how fast will the HA community reverse engineers it.  Pyinsteon, the backbone of the HA integration, works with 2413U USB, 2412S RS242 flavors of PLM and the 2448A7 USB stick, and also supports the 2242 and 2245 Hubs.

[lilyoyo1]

8 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Lock down the topic? NEVER!  Seriously though, you make some good points.  I do believe this means Smartlabs has the financial horsepower and a strong business plan to take the technology into the next decade or two.  Execution, of course, is critical.  There are mines along the way that can blow up their business plan, but it can't be denied that the technology has a new lease on life with more money and what seems to be a good vision and partner behind it.  

However, I'm not convinced there is anything released so far indicating Smartlabs will share its technology.  I'm sure Nokia has it and has a clear understanding of it, but that doesn't mean it will be an open platform for anyone other than their partnership to use.  One would hope they developed their plan to open it up and extract a fee from anyone wanting to use the technology (true scalability).  But, nothing I've seen points in that direction.  And, based on how Michel reported his conversations with Rob, there is some evidence it will not be open.  Now that the new product has been launched, hopefully that launch will include a process to allow open integration.   The next 6-12 months will be interesting.

One thing I disagree with, this does not mean the continuation of Insteon.  Compared to a month ago when the company hadn't released a press release for three years, ran out of stock of nearly every item, and has stated they will no longer sell a key integration component (2413s) due to low sales, am I encouraged, yes, almost estatic.  But, all of the new information is about a different system which borrows heavily on the technology used by Inston, that's it.  The new brand may, or may not, work well, with Insteon.  So, good for Smartlabs.  For Insteon, it is to early to say it will be a viable platform for the next 5+ years.

The recent history of fewer and fewer SKU's has already reduced one's ability to build a functional system.  If that history continues, which it may, with even just a few more SKU's cancelled, Insteon will quickly become an unworkable platform for "old school" enthusiasts like many on this forum as there simply will not be enough hardware other than dimmers, kaypads, and lamplincs for one to contemplate its continued use, or a new install.  If the two techs mesh together, fantastic, but something deep in my head is telling me that a seemless/workable coexistance on the same install seems unlikely.

I hope for the best.

 

The way I see this is the fewer SKUs is dropping dead weight from insteon. With new ownership, I imagined they looked at sells and how stuff fit together and decided to trim the fat off.

As power users, we see a reduction and think one thing but as a company it's really another. From their viewpoint it's cheaper to cut it out. One, they have to continue buying/making slow selling product. Then there's shipping costs, and storage costs on top of that. Does it make sense to continue that for something they aren't making money on long term to keep a few happy?

I did the same with my business. What I installed in the beginning was much greater than I do now. What I was making compared to the amount of work I was doing didn't add up. The same applies to them. Previous ownership was more concerned about quantity than they were about quality and actual use. New ownership wants to plot a different path.

Ive said it before debating with @Teken we're ahead of the times and a dinosaur at the same time. What the consumer population as a whole wants is a lot different than what we want. None of these companies are catering to us. We are putting systems together that's being designed for the other 97% of people with the expectation that we are what matters.

Personally, I think I stein as we know it will be done for once this line matures. This is the new insteon. No different than when dual band devices were released. They kept the old stuff around for a while then finally cut it free. The Isy99 was sold alongside the 994 until it wasn't. The 994 will continue to be sold alongside polisy for the next few years until it's not. It makes no sense from a business perspective (long term) to continue coding for 2 separate systems once polisy is fully functional. 

I just don't see the point in having 2 separate product lines when you can accomplish the same with 1. 

 

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, MrBill said:

The interesting place to watch will be how fast will the HA community reverse engineers it.  Pyinsteon, the backbone of the HA integration, works with 2413U USB, 2412S RS242 flavors of PLM and the 2448A7 USB stick, and also supports the 2242 and 2245 Hubs.

That would be interesting, though I wonder how well it would work in regards to firmware updates since those come from their servers. I guess, a person could always own the hub for those

[DAlter01]

4 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I just don't see the point in having 2 separate product lines when you can accomplish the same with 1. 

Yep, agree with all your points.  I'm hoping the new devices will work on a prior Insteon system.  That would be the best  outcome I think anyone can hope for.  People like us couldn't imagine living without a good HA system.  However, most everyone else is happy with nothing or just controlling a few items.  It's hard to put on that other hat and think a company should go in the direction of appealing to a buyer only wanting to control a few items but there is probably a lot of money (probably more money) to be made doing that.   

[Teken]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The way I see this is the fewer SKUs is dropping dead weight from insteon. With new ownership, I imagined they looked at sells and how stuff fit together and decided to trim the fat off.

As power users, we see a reduction and think one thing but as a company it's really another. From their viewpoint it's cheaper to cut it out. One, they have to continue buying/making slow selling product. Then there's shipping costs, and storage costs on top of that. Does it make sense to continue that for something they aren't making money on long term to keep a few happy?

I did the same with my business. What I installed in the beginning was much greater than I do now. What I was making compared to the amount of work I was doing didn't add up. The same applies to them. Previous ownership was more concerned about quantity than they were about quality and actual use. New ownership wants to plot a different path.

Ive said it before debating with @Teken we're ahead of the times and a dinosaur at the same time. What the consumer population as a whole wants is a lot different than what we want. None of these companies are catering to us. We are putting systems together that's being designed for the other 97% of people with the expectation that we are what matters.

Personally, I think I stein as we know it will be done for once this line matures. This is the new insteon. No different than when dual band devices were released. They kept the old stuff around for a while then finally cut it free. The Isy99 was sold alongside the 994 until it wasn't. The 994 will continue to be sold alongside polisy for the next few years until it's not. It makes no sense from a business perspective (long term) to continue coding for 2 separate systems once polisy is fully functional. 

I just don't see the point in having 2 separate product lines when you can accomplish the same with 1. 

 

I believe as it pertains to the ISY Series Controller it will remain in place for years to come.

Why??

Price of admission and is equivalent to a 4 banger Mustang vs a real 8 banger. These were the bread and butter for Ford and helped push sales for decades for the company. The model UDI uses for example for the Pro vs Non Pro and the modules is pure magic.

You have one core hardware that runs perfectly fine as the users needs and prowess grows. Guess what they all migrate to spend more money for a software upgrade to open that untapped potential. The lowest priced Polisy is what double the price for entry??

I don't see the ISY Series Controller ever going away as this is the steady revenue maker for the company. That allows anyone to grow and open its full potential as their needs and skills grow. If at some point Insteon is killed off people still have options of waiting for their hardware to die.

Then replace with Nokia, Z-Wave, ZigBee, Other when the time comes  . . .

If the whole ALL ON issue wasn't a serious problem I would still have those pieces of hardware in place. All of them still work just fine but made the hard decision to update everything to the latest and greatest. For me this whole Nokia thing isn't critical as my plans don't involve being tied to any specific vendor for load control.

 

 

[MrBill]

6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That would be interesting, though I wonder how well it would work in regards to firmware updates since those come from their servers. I guess, a person could always own the hub for those

I don't know for a fact, because I don't use it but my understanding is that if you have a 2242 or 2245 hub, pyinsteon will access it via ethernet, no serial or USB interface required.

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

If the whole ALL ON issue wasn't a serious problem I would still have those pieces of hardware in place.

Teken,  probably a naive perspective, but I heard somewhere the All-On events were tied to the first gen MS in a low battery condition.  True or not, I don't know.  I had those events happen a number of times at my old house (it opened the garage door a few times) and it really bothered me.  At my new install I only have hard wired second generation MS's and at the five month mark have not had a single All-On event.  Problem solved? I hope so.  

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

I believe as it pertains to the ISY Series Controller it will remain in place for years to come.

Why??

Price of admission and is equivalent to a 4 banger Mustang vs a real 8 banger. These were the bread and butter for Ford and helped push sales for decades for the company. The model UDI uses for example for the Pro vs Non Pro and the modules is pure magic.

You have one core hardware that runs perfectly fine as the users needs and prowess grows. Guess what they all migrate to spend more money for a software upgrade to open that untapped potential. The lowest priced Polisy is what double the price for entry??

I don't see the ISY Series Controller ever going away as this is the steady revenue maker for the company. That allows anyone to grow and open its full potential as their needs and skills grow. If at some point Insteon is killed off people still have options of waiting for their hardware to die.

Then replace with Nokia, Z-Wave, ZigBee, Other when the time comes  . . .

If the whole ALL ON issue wasn't a serious problem I would still have those pieces of hardware in place. All of them still work just fine but made the hard decision to update everything to the latest and greatest. For me this whole Nokia thing isn't critical as my plans don't involve being tied to any specific vendor for load control.

 

 

A person still owning one vs having to buy a new one is different than what I'm referring to. Don't get me wrong, I don't see the 994 going away for some years in regards to being sold. I do think it will eventually be replaced by polisy. I don't know UDI's plan, I just don't see it

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I don't know for a fact, because I don't use it but my understanding is that if you have a 2242 or 2245 hub, pyinsteon will access it via ethernet, no serial or USB interface required.

But these don't work with those hubs. 

[Teken]

22 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Teken,  probably a naive perspective, but I heard somewhere the All-On events were tied to the first gen MS in a low battery condition.  True or not, I don't know.  I had those events happen a number of times at my old house (it opened the garage door a few times) and it really bothered me.  At my new install I only have hard wired second generation MS's and at the five month mark have not had a single All-On event.  Problem solved? I hope so.  

No, the ALL ON code was removed from all hardware after 2014. Thus it would be impossible for the ALL ON event to occur on the hardware. The motion sensor did play a part in issues seen for me and many others as when the battery went low certain model years of firmware did not die gracefully.

Thus they would send a endless stream of ON's . . .

There were other elements that caused this to be true but I don't want to rehash that problem here. For me I had the finances and time to complete a slow removal and deployment at the pace I dictated. Like you hearing and seeing one of the largest doors open out of the blue wasn't a fun experience I enjoyed fixing for hundreds of people I installed hardware for.

I am truly surprised a law suite never came to be as it pertains to this issue. Than, again I'm in Canada and most Canadians don't care about anything except Beaver . . . ?

Edited July 23, 2021 by Teken

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, Teken said:

No, the ALL ON code was removed from all hardware after 2014. Thus it would be impossible for the ALL ON event to occur on the hardware. The motion sensor did play a part in issues seen for me and many others as when the battery went low certain model years of firmware did not die gracefully.

Thus they would send a endless stream of ON's . . .

There were other elements that caused this to be true but I don't want to rehash that problem here. For me I had the finances and time to complete a slow removal and deployment at the pace I dictated. Like you hearing and seeing one of the largest doors open out of the blue wasn't a fun experience I enjoyed fixing for hundreds of people I installed hardware for.

I am truly surprised a law suite never came to be as it pertains to this issue. Than, again I'm in Canada and most Canadians don't care about anything except Beaver . . . ?

We all know it happened but I'm not sure if it was ever truly determined as to why. For all the different systems and setups, it only happened with the Isy. 

[Teken]

12 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

A person still owning one vs having to buy a new one is different than what I'm referring to. Don't get me wrong, I don't see the 994 going away for some years in regards to being sold. I do think it will eventually be replaced by polisy. I don't know UDI's plan, I just don't see it

Well, unless they are going to offer a cheaper computer similar to the Polisy that would supplant the current ISY Series Controller. Going this route would plummet sales over night as how many people are going to part with green backs that is double the cost??

As you have indicated many times (Which I agree) money talks bull sh^t walks. If Michel chimed in I'm sure he would affirm the sales of both units are completely lop sided. This primarily being (Prior to this whole ISY -> Polisy) migration. No one needed the Polisy given almost all the same could be replicated on a RPI, Network Module, Poly Cloud.

[Teken]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

We all know it happened but I'm not sure if it was ever truly determined as to why. For all the different systems and setups, it only happened with the Isy. 

LOL - I wasn't even going there . . . ?

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, Teken said:

LOL - I wasn't even going there . . . ?

Its not a slight. Just saying the whole story. 

[upstatemike]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:07 PM, Teken said:

I am really happy to see this news finally come out into the public realm as I sat on the sidelines waiting! ? Regardless, these are my thoughts on this news in no specific order of relevance and importance.

Partnership: As many of you have read from me is the never ending rant of connecting with a major hardware vendor. This on the surface has finally been achieved after the complete fail by Joe D. ? What material impact it will have over the long run won't be known for a while. As many partnerships and agreements have a WOO before a clause can be invoked to dissolve and part ways. 

Branding: Once again I and several others had already seen the Vantaa marketing name. The only thing unknown was if this was a new line considered by Smartlabs or Other. In this case it was other which was a partnership with one of most famous names in the world Nokia.

Hardware: This hardware isn't new and has been known by all of via the FCC web page. The hardware was already under submition and under review since 2020.03.20. The other hardware was submitted a few months apart so this aspect was in the works long ago.

If the various Internet web listings are true this hardware is a step back in some technical and electrical aspects. All of the web searches I've seen state this is a single voltage device. Keep in mind all of the current generation of Insteon is dual voltage & frequency! I've spoken about this at length forever as to how this impacts the world wide use and adoption along with the reliability factor of said devices!

If and when this hardware is readily available I'm going to take a few of them apart. If I see the same cheap aszz capacitors and backwoods soldering on the PCB. This affirms nothing has changed besides a smooth talker selling so called new wares to a partner that has a mediocre track record for long term reliability.

If on the other hand the board uses high quality components then maybe the page and direction has changed for Smartlabs . . .

I have to say it's great to see this new Vantaa line take one of the Wish List items and make it come true! Seeing a four button KPL has been a long time want from many of us. But, this company has been too stupid to offer a frame kit to allow all of us to replicate the same!

One thing I am eager to test and validate is (IF) these devices truly support any type of load. Also the fact it can toggle between a relay vs dimmer which requires some consideration in power supply expertise if to operate correctly. You only see this in more expansive switches so this will be interesting to see if marketing lives up to reality.

The inclusion of a RGB LED is again another win and feature lots of people have asked for. 

Let the games begin . . .  

 

 

 

Where did you see that switches toggle between a dimmer and a relay? I see that they can be set up as dimmers or switches which usually just means that dimming from the paddle is disabled so the triac snaps between zero and 100%. I don't see any mention of a relay.

[Teken]

4 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Its not a slight. Just saying the whole story. 

Understood, I'd rather try to forget the whole thing if I could. Just this single problem costs me more lost sleep, stress, and grey hairs than anything technology related in my lifetime.

Well, besides seeing four guys screaming like crazy because the Halon system was about to kill them! ?

[lilyoyo1]

19 minutes ago, Teken said:

Well, unless they are going to offer a cheaper computer similar to the Polisy that would supplant the current ISY Series Controller. Going this route would plummet sales over night as how many people are going to part with green backs that is double the cost??

As you have indicated many times (Which I agree) money talks bull sh^t walks. If Michel chimed in I'm sure he would affirm the sales of both units are completely lop sided. This primarily being (Prior to this whole ISY -> Polisy) migration. No one needed the Polisy given almost all the same could be replicated on a RPI, Network Module, Poly Cloud.

Michel has already stated 994 sales would continue which I believe will continue for some time. However, I have a hard to seeing it lasting an indefinite amount of time once polisy is fully functional. Financially and time wise, i just don't see it. 

Are you referring to new users or old users? I'd say isy sales are bigger than polisy since you need an ISY for polisy at this time. Once fully functional, new users wouldn't know about the Isy price point. Comparable controllers are within the polisy price point (actually more expensive). Those thinking polisy is too expensive may pass up on it and look for cheaper options. At that point, they're looking at the free open source options which even the Isy cannot compete with when it comes to pricing.

Remeber- Isy with zwave was once 300+ as well (including PLM) and still sold

Edited July 23, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Where did you see that switches toggle between a dimmer and a relay? I see that they can be set up as dimmers or switches which usually just means that dimming from the paddle is disabled so the triac snaps between zero and 100%. I don't see any mention of a relay.

I little birdie ?.

https://www.nokia.com/shop/en_us/smart-lighting/nokia-smart-lighting-paddle/

Edited July 23, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Techman]

 

Some facts on the Smartlabs / Nokia relationship..........

All the Nokia / Smartlabs products show a late September release date

At launch the Nokia Smart Lighting app will support only Nokia Smart Lighting devices. They plan to also support some of the most popular Insteon products in the future. Visit nokia.smartlabsinc.com and sign up for email updates to get the latest news.

In 2021 Smartlabs announced its licensing of the Nokia brand name for Smart Lighting products.

The Nokia branded products are being sold directly by Smartlabs

Smartlabs is also working with Apple to certify the Nokia Smart Lighting products to work with HomeKit.

You can group and control Nokia Smart Lighting products with Zigbee and Z-Wave products through Amazon Alexa or Google Assistant when you also have Zigbee and Z-Wave products connected to Alexa or Google Home.

 

[Teken]

12 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Michel has already stated 994 sales would continue which I believe will continue for some time. However, I have a hard to seeing it lasting an indefinite amount of time once polisy is fully functional. Financially and time wise, i just don't see it. 

Are you referring to new users or old users? I'd say isy sales are bigger than polisy since you need an ISY for polisy at this time. Once fully functional, new users wouldn't know about the Isy price point. Comparable controllers are within the polisy price point (actually more expensive). Those thinking polisy is too expensive may pass up on it and look for cheaper options. At that point, they're looking at the free open source options which even the Isy cannot compete with when it comes to pricing.

Remeber- Isy with zwave was once 300+ as well and still sold

As stated the market has every price range for a reason as the demand is there. Nobody purchased an Insteon Hub because it was the best only because this was cheap and a easy way to dab your feet into the whole realm of HA. Smartlabs more than likely sold four times the Hubs than UDI ever did for the year.

As time went on a percentage of people loved what Insteon had to offer and decided to let their fingers do the walking and joined any of the forums. At this point they learned about the ISY Series Controller and quickly purchased the same as they *Grew Up* knowing this single controller can open the heavens by its incredible state logic machine system.

Anyone can just look back five years ago and see all of the POS hubs offered by the likes of Staples etc. All of them are gone and that's good because it saturated the market with pure and utter sh^t which confused people to no end! Don't get me wrong I am a strong proponent of having options and seeing competition.

None of these little Hubs were that they like Apple were trying to make their own walled garden of sh^t.

The fact anyone continues to try to integrate with Home Kit isn't because its so awesome. Its because they follow the money and the current trends.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Teken