Insteon being discontinued?

[Teken]

For me the problem with RadioRA is the switches themselves do not feel premium to me. I installed some Caseta in my house to test it out and I like the quality but the product line is too limited to ever replace all of my Insteon configurations. I also installed some RadioRA2 stuff for somebody else last year and was shocked at the fact that they were just push-on/push-off and not true rocker style switches. Not only do they feel spongy but there is no way to do multi-tap on or multi-tap off functions since there is no distinct on and off. Not what I would expect in a premium priced switch! Better to go with a good quality Z-Wave switch than pay a premium for RadioRA and end up with such a limited product.

Agree if I’m paying ten times more you better get the basics right! As stated so many times before these companies have the wrong people in the position of power.

It’s taken more than 15 years for another company to release a so called KPL competitor yet still falls short to doing the same!

I believe the true direction are those LCD / LED switches. Once someone produces a $79.99 touch multi switch that can toggle to show any number of buttons to X. Things will take off and competition will slowly ramp up. The fact it’s taken no less than three nobody’s to release the same just shows you how out of touch the market leaders are.

Does anyone think Leviton, Eaton, P&S, Hubble doesn’t have the talent and money to release the same?!?

It’s not done because they aren’t really focused or invested in the market in any serious way. Too many old guard conservative thinkers in the ranks. If people knew how many teeth had to be pulled for any of these makers to even tip their toes in this sector your head would spin off!

[silverton38]

5 hours ago, kclenden said:

The Nokia Smart Lighting Bridge list price is $39.99.  That's half the price of the PLM or Insteon Hub Central Controller.  What could they have stripped out of it to make it so inexpensive (relatively)?

I have no idea how well it will work. I will try it and see. I suspect it is a fancy version of the existing hub. I eventually try everything.

[silverton38]

40 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

For me the problem with RadioRA is the switches themselves do not feel premium to me. I installed some Caseta in my house to test it out and I like the quality but the product line is too limited to ever replace all of my Insteon configurations. I also installed some RadioRA2 stuff for somebody else last year and was shocked at the fact that they were just push-on/push-off and not true rocker style switches. Not only do they feel spongy but there is no way to do multi-tap on or multi-tap off functions since there is no distinct on and off. Not what I would expect in a premium priced switch! Better to go with a good quality Z-Wave switch than pay a premium for RadioRA and end up with such a limited product.

I have done a few homes entirely with Caseta. Very reliable and I do not think I have ever had a switch failure. Also they do not seem to have distance limitations that I have found with Z-Wave. I do agree that RadioRA does not feel premium and it is just way to expensive for what you get so I never did an install with it. To me it is nothing more then Caseta 3 times the price. Where I like Insteon over Caseta is the instant on and off and where I like the ISY over other hubs is that it does not need an email account to work like cloud solutions......people do sell their houses and it needs to work for the new owner right out of the box.

[silverton38]

I just recommended to Smartlabs to give the information to Universal Devices. Hopefully someone will listen.

[lilyoyo1]

31 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

I just recommended to Smartlabs to give the information to Universal Devices. Hopefully someone will listen.

They won't. At some point, once the line has matured that may change. However, at this point this will not happen

[silverton38]

28 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

They won't. At some point, once the line has matured that may change. However, at this point this will not happen

If this is a rebranding of Insteon they will want sell to their base. Most of their base uses the ISY. They would be stupid not to give you guys the information. I let them know and hopefully they will listen. 

[silverton38]

4 hours ago, Teken said:

If history is any indicator it incorporates every known (no name) brand component. It will have the exact same service life as the rest. As it pertains to price the Insteon (square) Hub was at $39.99 at different times for an extended period to gain market share and adoption.

The BOM for this hardware is probably well under $25.XX. The vast majority for cost is for the mold for the UV stable plastic case.

They had quality issues and think they resolved them as far as I can tell. A new Insteon switch has lasted a lot longer than the old ones.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, upstatemike said:

For me the problem with RadioRA is the switches themselves do not feel premium to me. I installed some Caseta in my house to test it out and I like the quality but the product line is too limited to ever replace all of my Insteon configurations. I also installed some RadioRA2 stuff for somebody else last year and was shocked at the fact that they were just push-on/push-off and not true rocker style switches. Not only do they feel spongy but there is no way to do multi-tap on or multi-tap off functions since there is no distinct on and off. Not what I would expect in a premium priced switch! Better to go with a good quality Z-Wave switch than pay a premium for RadioRA and end up with such a limited product.

It's all about choosing the right system for the situation. Lutron itself is geared towards lighting design not automation. This is something it does 100x better than insteon and any other diy setup. Even other high end systems fall short on what lutein can do with LEDs. This is why I say the devil is in the details. For a long lasting system with lighting being emphasized, no one can compete. A person building a multi million dollar home wants certain things that insteon and other diy systems simply cannot match. 

Using Polisy, one could integrate RR2 with the Isy and turn those systems into automation systems so the lack of certain capabilities becomes moot. 

 

[Teken]

They had quality issues and think they resolved them as far as I can tell. A new Insteon switch has lasted a lot longer than the old ones.

Generally speaking this is true but this doesn’t cover all their current hardware line.

Think toggle linc which hasn’t been updated since public launch?!? Still single band and continues to use the same cheap parts. The highest failure dual band switch continues to be the KPL in whatever flavour.

Again cheap parts . . .

Since the topic is about their new Nokia Hub, again history shows an endless failure rate that spans every single model ever produced. So if this Nokia box is $39.99 I’d wager it’s future will be the same!

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, silverton38 said:

If this is a rebranding of Insteon they will want sell to their base. Most of their base uses the ISY. They would be stupid not to give you guys the information. I let them know and hopefully they will listen. 

That is where you are wrong. Most of their base uses an insteon hub. Isy users may be more active and passionate but the majority of their sales are hub sales. Besides that, even if they did consider Isy users- most aren't going to drop a well functioning system to run out and replace it with all new switches just because.  Time effort, and finances all play a part in that. 

If you read back through past posts on here, the reasons behind this are already laid out so I'm not going to rehash. In short however, they are going for new customers. Regardless of how you may look at UDI and the Isy, there are still thousands of times more untapped potential customers. They have their plan and as Michel already knows, the Isy and other systems are not part of it at this time. 

[Teken]

That is where you are wrong. Most of their base uses an insteon hub. Isy users may be more active and passionate but the majority of their sales are hub sales. Besides that, even if they did consider Isy users- most aren't going to drop a well functioning system to run out and replace it with all new switches just because.  Time effort, and finances all play a part in that. 
If you read back through past posts on here, the reasons behind this are already laid out so I'm not going to rehash. In short however, they are going for new customers. Regardless of how you may look at UDI and the Isy, there are still thousands of times more untapped potential customers. They have their plan and as Michel already knows, the Isy and other systems are not part of it at this time. 

Sad but true . . .

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, Teken said:

Sad but true . . .

Wow- no argument.....What have you done with my Teken you imposter

[Teken]

Wow- no argument.....What have you done with my Teken you imposter

[MrBill]

19 hours ago, LFMc said:

It seems to me that a lot of people commenting on this Insteon-Nokia announcement seem to be implying that Nokia is licensing Insteon technology to build and sell product. 

From reading prior articles and the web page below, it seems it is the opposite. Insteon (i.e. Smartlabs) is only licensing the name/brand Nokia from them. Nokia doesn't appear to have any skin the the game at all.  To me that says this is all Smartlabs' deal to elevate the brand of their products. It doesn't sound like Nokia is involved technically at all. 

Do others see this differently? 

 

From the Nokia web  site:   https://www.nokia.com/shop/smart-lighting/nokia-smart-lighting-bridge/

 

To understand the entire relationship all one needs to do is visit linkedin and study Rob Lilleness's resume.

[silverton38]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

Sad but true . . .

That is sad. 

[DAlter01]

40 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That is where you are wrong. Most of their base uses an insteon hub. Isy users may be more active and passionate but the majority of their sales are hub sales. Besides that, even if they did consider Isy users- most aren't going to drop a well functioning system to run out and replace it with all new switches just because.  Time effort, and finances all play a part in that. 

If you read back through past posts on here, the reasons behind this are already laid out so I'm not going to rehash. In short however, they are going for new customers. Regardless of how you may look at UDI and the Isy, there are still thousands of times more untapped potential customers. They have their plan and as Michel already knows, the Isy and other systems are not part of it at this time

Its not suprising they don't care about the ISY user market.  While it is important to us that use it, it is not where big business will focuses.  There are countless examples of a niche player (which Insteon is) inventing a good technology, having it become popular to a niche buyer, and then the technology gets gobbled up by someone new who takes the technology to a much broader buyer pool with a fresh/new distribution plan.  Sometimes there is an improvement to the tech through the process and sometimes a dumming down.  But, the technology isn't all that important.  The money to be made is in the braoding the distribution and sales side which is a leveraging of the business.  The variable cost to produce and sell the equipment is very low.  The fixed cost to develop, update and maintain the technology and corporate entity is high.  Spreading that fixed cost over 10-100X the number of sales is very profitable.  If you can properly develope the sales side, the technology can become much, much more valuable than it was within the niche buyer pool it previously appealed to. 

Smartlabs attempted to go with a wide distribution model a few years back selling at brick and mortor stores, the partnership with Microsoft, etc. but they didn't have the corporate sophistication to set up systems to pull it off effectively.  I suspect they ended up in worse shape than if they hadn't attempted that leap and I believe they tarnished the brand.  A new owner could not go back out to Home Depot, Best Buy, etc. and attempt a relaunch without approaching it with an entirely new name/platform, hence, the partnership with Nokia.  With that, the doors will open again.  

As many on this forum believe, the basic technology is still very viable compared to the other platforms that currently exist.  It needs some improvements, for sure, but if it is improved, it will be among the top HA tech platforms that exist.  Z-wave is coming along and improving substantially and will be real competition for the same market segment as it continues to evolve.  A new version of Insteon (Nokia) may put some distance between the two. 

Smartalbs isn't looking to overtake Lutron Homeworks/Crestron/C4.  There will always be that high end market for integrators that sell closed systems to customers where price is largely not relevant.  That isn't where Insteon is looking to compete and never has.  The ISY is what lets Insteon dip a toe into that Lutron/Crestron/C4 market but it is not likely the focus of Smartlabs. 

Hopefully, Smartlabs gives us the tools (A way to control its technology with an ISY or other logic systems)  so that we can continue this endevor.  If they do, they will sell X percent more of their hardware.  But, that X percent isn't their focus.  Their focus is to become a houshold name and have a LOT Of people buying equipment.  And, reading this a little deeper, there will be a day where they look to extract an ongoing monthly fee from users who want "additional" services.  That recurring revenue stream is the really big money is in the market.  Companies are valued as a multiple of their recurring net revenue stream and the multiple is higher for subscription models than it is for one time sales of technology products that can become outdated overnight.   

 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Its not suprising they don't care about the ISY user market.  While it is important to us that use it, it is not where big business will focuses.  There are countless examples of a niche player (which Insteon is) inventing a good technology, having it become popular to a niche buyer, and then the technology gets gobbled up by someone new who takes the technology to a much broader buyer pool with a fresh/new distribution plan.  Sometimes there is an improvement to the tech through the process and sometimes a dumming down.  But, the technology isn't all that important.  The money to be made is in the braoding the distribution and sales side which is a leveraging of the business.  The variable cost to produce and sell the equipment is very low.  The fixed cost to develop, update and maintain the technology and corporate entity is high.  Spreading that fixed cost over 10-100X the number of sales is very profitable.  If you can properly develope the sales side, the technology can become much, much more valuable than it was within the niche buyer pool it previously appealed to. 

Smartlabs attempted to go with a wide distribution model a few years back selling at brick and mortor stores, the partnership with Microsoft, etc. but they didn't have the corporate sophistication to set up systems to pull it off effectively.  I suspect they ended up in worse shape than if they hadn't attempted that leap and I believe they tarnished the brand.  A new owner could not go back out to Home Depot, Best Buy, etc. and attempt a relaunch without approaching it with an entirely new name/platform, hence, the partnership with Nokia.  With that, the doors will open again.  

As many on this forum believe, the basic technology is still very viable compared to the other platforms that currently exist.  It needs some improvements, for sure, but if it is improved, it will be among the top HA tech platforms that exist.  Z-wave is coming along and improving substantially and will be real competition for the same market segment as it continues to evolve.  A new version of Insteon (Nokia) may put some distance between the two. 

Smartalbs isn't looking to overtake Lutron Homeworks/Crestron/C4.  There will always be that high end market for integrators that sell closed systems to customers where price is largely not relevant.  That isn't where Insteon is looking to compete and never has.  The ISY is what lets Insteon dip a toe into that Lutron/Crestron/C4 market but it is not likely the focus of Smartlabs. 

Hopefully, Smartlabs gives us the tools (A way to control its technology with an ISY or other logic systems)  so that we can continue this endevor.  If they do, they will sell X percent more of their hardware.  But, that X percent isn't their focus.  Their focus is to become a houshold name and have a LOT Of people buying equipment.  And, reading this a little deeper, there will be a day where they look to extract an ongoing monthly fee from users who want "additional" services.  That recurring revenue stream is the really big money is in the market.  Companies are valued as a multiple of their recurring net revenue stream and the multiple is higher for subscription models than it is for one time sales of technology products that can become outdated overnight.   

 

 

 

Well said. You're right about their partnerships hurting them more than it helping them....ALOT....That and trying to be first with Homekit. 

Its not that they don't care completely about Isy users....power users simply aren't their priority anymore.  Their needs are great and it's not cheap to keep them happy. It's like driving an exotic car. Sure, it's hot, fast, and popular but it also drains your wallet. 

[asbril]

36 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Its not suprising they don't care about the ISY user market.  While it is important to us that use it, it is not where big business will focuses.  There are countless examples of a niche player (which Insteon is) inventing a good technology, having it become popular to a niche buyer, and then the technology gets gobbled up by someone new who takes the technology to a much broader buyer pool with a fresh/new distribution plan.  Sometimes there is an improvement to the tech through the process and sometimes a dumming down.  But, the technology isn't all that important.  The money to be made is in the braoding the distribution and sales side which is a leveraging of the business.  The variable cost to produce and sell the equipment is very low.  The fixed cost to develop, update and maintain the technology and corporate entity is high.  Spreading that fixed cost over 10-100X the number of sales is very profitable.  If you can properly develope the sales side, the technology can become much, much more valuable than it was within the niche buyer pool it previously appealed to. 

Smartlabs attempted to go with a wide distribution model a few years back selling at brick and mortor stores, the partnership with Microsoft, etc. but they didn't have the corporate sophistication to set up systems to pull it off effectively.  I suspect they ended up in worse shape than if they hadn't attempted that leap and I believe they tarnished the brand.  A new owner could not go back out to Home Depot, Best Buy, etc. and attempt a relaunch without approaching it with an entirely new name/platform, hence, the partnership with Nokia.  With that, the doors will open again.  

As many on this forum believe, the basic technology is still very viable compared to the other platforms that currently exist.  It needs some improvements, for sure, but if it is improved, it will be among the top HA tech platforms that exist.  Z-wave is coming along and improving substantially and will be real competition for the same market segment as it continues to evolve.  A new version of Insteon (Nokia) may put some distance between the two. 

Smartalbs isn't looking to overtake Lutron Homeworks/Crestron/C4.  There will always be that high end market for integrators that sell closed systems to customers where price is largely not relevant.  That isn't where Insteon is looking to compete and never has.  The ISY is what lets Insteon dip a toe into that Lutron/Crestron/C4 market but it is not likely the focus of Smartlabs. 

Hopefully, Smartlabs gives us the tools (A way to control its technology with an ISY or other logic systems)  so that we can continue this endevor.  If they do, they will sell X percent more of their hardware.  But, that X percent isn't their focus.  Their focus is to become a houshold name and have a LOT Of people buying equipment.  And, reading this a little deeper, there will be a day where they look to extract an ongoing monthly fee from users who want "additional" services.  That recurring revenue stream is the really big money is in the market.  Companies are valued as a multiple of their recurring net revenue stream and the multiple is higher for subscription models than it is for one time sales of technology products that can become outdated overnight.   

 

 

 

Thanks for the lengthy view. You may very well be right on where SmartHome wants to go, but your outlook may also include some wishful thinking.

My take is that home automation will evolve exponentially and that some or  most of the technologies that we currently use will be replaced by something that either does not exist today or that is still in development. In the meantime  SmartHome may have missed the train and by the time they target the next station it may be too late.  The development of Nokia is for sure interesting, but Nokia is no longer the brand name they once were and is it willing to spend big $$$ to promote this new line of product.

My home is almost entirely Zwave and I give it a useful life of another 5 years, when I will likely replace it with something new by then.

[lilyoyo1]

23 minutes ago, asbril said:

Thanks for the lengthy view. You may very well be right on where SmartHome wants to go, but your outlook may also include some wishful thinking.

My take is that home automation will evolve exponentially and that some or  most of the technologies that we currently use will be replaced by something that either does not exist today or that is still in development. In the meantime  SmartHome may have missed the train and by the time they target the next station it may be too late.  The development of Nokia is for sure interesting, but Nokia is no longer the brand name they once were and is it willing to spend big $$$ to promote this new line of product.

My home is almost entirely Zwave and I give it a useful life of another 5 years, when I will likely replace it with something new by then.

Technology is always changing but not every company can afford to be the one to take that risk. Look at how many billions Sony has lost over the years trying to do that. How many protocols google, Amazon, and Microsoft tried to come out and "fix" things. Look at apple and Homekit. 

Insteon is not one of those  companies. They are a very small company.....less than 30 employees (outside of subcontractors). For them to try to anticipate and be the first to the next big thing would ensure their downfall. The best that most companies can do is adapt to an ever changing market. 

Mass market has spoken and said they don't want what we have. Countless times, I've seen people with perfectly good camera systems "upgrade" them to ring....even after being educated on the cons. When I talk to people about automation, as much as people love to hear the capabilities, they're happy and satisfied with simply turning on lights with their voice or simple timer. All the extra interactive stuff has limited appeal. These are the people insteon is going for. 

In reality, most consumers don't really care about protocol. They go off what they read and hear. While Nokia isn't the giant they once were, people still know the name and for the most part associate it with good memories. Looking into their overall business, it continues to grow and with that so will their name. 

There is more than enough money to go around with different smarthome companies. Insteon doesnt need to be the biggest or best

 

[DAlter01]

2 hours ago, asbril said:

Thanks for the lengthy view. You may very well be right on where SmartHome wants to go, but your outlook may also include some wishful thinking.

My take is that home automation will evolve exponentially and that some or  most of the technologies that we currently use will be replaced by something that either does not exist today or that is still in development. In the meantime  SmartHome may have missed the train and by the time they target the next station it may be too late.  The development of Nokia is for sure interesting, but Nokia is no longer the brand name they once were and is it willing to spend big $$$ to promote this new line of product.

My home is almost entirely Zwave and I give it a useful life of another 5 years, when I will likely replace it with something new by then.

Of course it has wishful thinking, I'm an eternal optimist on most things.  It's a internal software issue I have, or is it hardware... 

Things will evolve but I suspect that over the short term (5 years) that change will be mostly software evolution/refinement.  Harware tends to be sticky and doesn't change much as long as the old stuff is still working and making money.  With so few participants in the hardware side of HA, I doubt one of them will do any earth shattering hardware changes that makes their old tech obsolete as they don't want to cut off the money making gravy train and how much better can Lutron, Crestron, C4, Insteon get?  I little longer range, faster reponse, lower price.  I believe the change would be incremental and wouldn't change the landscape that much. 

I suppose 700 series Z-wave, once it comes out, can be a fairly substantial improvement to the low price point home user market.  But, without much cenralized marketing, no standardization on how to customize devices, and such poor documentation by the hardware manufacturers (at least the ones I've read),  I'm rather suspect it will signficantly change it's adoption rate.  It really isn't that easy for a home user to implement a Z-wave HA system that incorporates a lot of different device types (more than one type of switch/motion).  I agree that Z-wave has a lot going for it but it isn't that easy for a novice to mess with.  I think that is where the new Nokia/Insteon brand is going, trying to be the Apple of HA.  Make it a simple easy to understand, have a user interface that is excellent, and a system that for the most part works.  In my view, that isn't Z-wave, though I think it works, it seems to fail on the first two points.

If Nokia/Insteon goes that route and does it well, they will have a winning formula.  People say that Lutron "just works" and has a great app interface.  Well, it seems from my perspective, the new Smartlabs is taking steps to follow that type of model but with more of a retail customer focus.   The next 6-9 months should be interesting to see if my hunch is correct and if they are able to pull it off.

 

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Of course it has wishful thinking, I'm an eternal optimist on most things.  It's a internal software issue I have, or is it hardware... 

Things will evolve but I suspect that over the short term (5 years) that change will be mostly software evolution/refinement.  Harware tends to be sticky and doesn't change much as long as the old stuff is still working and making money.  With so few participants in the hardware side of HA, I doubt one of them will do any earth shattering hardware changes that makes their old tech obsolete as they don't want to cut off the money making gravy train and how much better can Lutron, Crestron, C4, Insteon get?  I little longer range, faster reponse, lower price.  I believe the change would be incremental and wouldn't change the landscape that much. 

I suppose 700 series Z-wave, once it comes out, can be a fairly substantial improvement to the low price point home user market.  But, without much cenralized marketing, no standardization on how to customize devices, and such poor documentation by the hardware manufacturers (at least the ones I've read),  I'm rather suspect it will signficantly change it's adoption rate.  It really isn't that easy for a home user to implement a Z-wave HA system that incorporates a lot of different device types (more than one type of switch/motion).  I agree that Z-wave has a lot going for it but it isn't that easy for a novice to mess with.  I think that is where the new Nokia/Insteon brand is going, trying to be the Apple of HA.  Make it a simple easy to understand and use interface that for the most part works.  In my view, that isn't Z-wave. 

If Nokia/Insteon goes that route and does it well, they will have a winning formula.  People say that Lutron "just works" and has a great app interface.  Well, it seems from my perspective, the new Smartlabs is taking steps to follow that type of model but with more of a retail customer focus.   The next 6-9 months should be interesting to see if my hunch is correct and if they are able to pull it off.

 

I agree with your zwave points. It's one of my sticking points with it. You can't simply buy a device and know it will "just work" and how to make it work. I couldn't imagine being non techie and having to set a whole house up with it. 

The new hub and app is extremely simple to set devices up from beginning to end. Outside of system glitches, you have to purposely not want to get something added and configured. Device installation will always be tricky due to the nature of installations but even there it helps you of you don't know how. I've always thought the hub was simple but this makes it 10x easier

 

[larryllix]

I think ISY users should be happy for the Insteon Hub. While it is a cheaper, less capable box, it is the gateway for many ISY users to upgrade to. Most users will never want this complication or power ISY has to offer but the Hub is still the gateway from many ISY style users.

Without the Hub, ISY likely wouldn't have existed, as the Hub creates and makes possible a line of home automation capable devices alive Insteon devices. Now ISY has branched out into supporting so many protocols and other devices but Insteon is what started the ISY994 concept.

IOW: The Hub is not what I wanted at all (I return two units, once I saw what they could do), but it caused so many Insteon devices to exist in the past. Trouble is SmartLabs doesn't seem to want us to exist and thought they were in the Apple big leagues, dumping on the ISY market. Hopefully they will be sorry someday as, IMHO, Insteon is still the best downstream adoption of the BSR/X10 system that started it all.
Anybody know how to run Cat6 to every switch and receptacle in an existing house?

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

 Trouble is SmartLabs doesn't seem to want us to exist and thought they were in the Apple big leagues, dumping on the ISY market. Hopefully they will be sorry someday as, IMHO, Insteon is still the best downstream adoption of the BSR/X10 system that started it all.

Anybody know how to run Cat6 to every switch and receptacle in an existing house?

It's not wanting power users to exist. The market has changed. In the beginning, only power users wanted this type of stuff. We were the majority. Now that the masses are on board, we are the minority. That's the business world- follow the money

[upstatemike]

So it seems that the consensus is that while Insteon is not really discontinued it is going off in a direction that does not align with the sort of Prosumer HA crowd who currently use ISY/Insteon. So the next big question is whether there is ANY product or protocol interested in being the successor in this space? Just off the top of my head I see the following:

UPB does not have enough market share to assume the role.

Lutron Caseta would be pretty good if Lutron didn't intentionally cripple the capacity and limit the product offerings to prevent erosion of the more expensive RadioRA lines. It is designed specifically not scale into the DIY Prosumer space.

Lutron RadioRA is focused on electrician installed lighting solutions and has only minimal support for home automation. That coupled with unfortunate design decisions (push on/push off instead of a true toggle with separate on and off) plus the high cost plus the authorized training requirement pretty much rule it out for DIY Prosumers.

Z-Wave has the best range of matching devices that could substitute for exisisting Insteon items and avoids the dreaded overcrowded 2.4GHz frequency range but the protocol is extremely complex and the so-called benefis of having a "mesh network" rather than a broadcast/repeat one quickly break down as you try to scale up to Prosumer levels. The optimazation alone (I think Hubitat suggests you allow a full day for each tier as you install devices in tiered rings out from the controller) makes it a non-starter for doing an installation for a friend or customer. How many days can you devote just to configuring and optimizing something before it just becomes ridiculous... and that assummes there were no glitches enrolling anything!

Hue at least understands the concept of having a local switch to provide on/off, and color scene control. Unfortunately they are reluctant to do much for the Prosumer like make actual wired switches that fit into actual ganged switchplates. More importantly they just can't find a way to scale. They claim Zigbee communication suffers with more than 50 devices on a single network but are focused on products at the bulb level rather than the switch level. My front hall chandelier has 10 candelabra bulbs so it would consume 20% of a Hue hub's capaity for just one fixture! And then there is the premium cost and lack of load bearing switches to use on non-smart bulbs.

General Zigbee has a lot of great battery devices and color bulbs but switches and keypad options are poor. Also operate in the evil 2.4GHz range. There are additionally some challenges around standards enforcement.

LoRa avoids 2.4GHz and just works but the device selection is limited and the easiest brands to integrate, such a Yolink, have a cloud service dependency. 

Matter is back to 2.4GHz again and might even want to push traffic through your router. I hope consumer routers get a lot better CPU and RAM before folks try to scle that protocol. 

X10 is obsolete but it is inexpensive and manages to avoid most of the issues that the other protocols have. I wonder if it will make a comeback?

If there is an obvious Insteon successor I guess I am just not seeing it.

[lilyoyo1]

26 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

So it seems that the consensus is that while Insteon is not really discontinued it is going off in a direction that does not align with the sort of Prosumer HA crowd who currently use ISY/Insteon. So the next big question is whether there is ANY product or protocol interested in being the successor in this space? Just off the top of my head I see the following:

UPB does not have enough market share to assume the role.

Lutron Caseta would be pretty good if Lutron didn't intentionally cripple the capacity and limit the product offerings to prevent erosion of the more expensive RadioRA lines. It is designed specifically not scale into the DIY Prosumer space.

Lutron RadioRA is focused on electrician installed lighting solutions and has only minimal support for home automation. That coupled with unfortunate design decisions (push on/push off instead of a true toggle with separate on and off) plus the high cost plus the authorized training requirement pretty much rule it out for DIY Prosumers.

Z-Wave has the best range of matching devices that could substitute for exisisting Insteon items and avoids the dreaded overcrowded 2.4GHz frequency range but the protocol is extremely complex and the so-called benefis of having a "mesh network" rather than a broadcast/repeat one quickly break down as you try to scale up to Prosumer levels. The optimazation alone (I think Hubitat suggests you allow a full day for each tier as you install devices in tiered rings out from the controller) makes it a non-starter for doing an installation for a friend or customer. How many days can you devote just to configuring and optimizing something before it just becomes ridiculous... and that assummes there were no glitches enrolling anything!

Hue at least understands the concept of having a local switch to provide on/off, and color scene control. Unfortunately they are reluctant to do much for the Prosumer like make actual wired switches that fit into actual ganged switchplates. More importantly they just can't find a way to scale. They claim Zigbee communication suffers with more than 50 devices on a single network but are focused on products at the bulb level rather than the switch level. My front hall chandelier has 10 candelabra bulbs so it would consume 20% of a Hue hub's capaity for just one fixture! And then there is the premium cost and lack of load bearing switches to use on non-smart bulbs.

General Zigbee has a lot of great battery devices and color bulbs but switches and keypad options are poor. Also operate in the evil 2.4GHz range. There are additionally some challenges around standards enforcement.

LoRa avoids 2.4GHz and just works but the device selection is limited and the easiest brands to integrate, such a Yolink, have a cloud service dependency. 

Matter is back to 2.4GHz again and might even want to push traffic through your router. I hope consumer routers get a lot better CPU and RAM before folks try to scle that protocol. 

X10 is obsolete but it is inexpensive and manages to avoid most of the issues that the other protocols have. I wonder if it will make a comeback?

If there is an obvious Insteon successor I guess I am just not seeing it.

Lutron! Polisy supports caseta and Ra2. Not sure about select. However, they do have an API that would allow for further development so one could use the Isy to offer more capability than what Lutron supplies. 

Caseta has a place with it's low price entry point. This becomes even more appealing when coupled with the Isy. Scalability isn't as much of an issue as most people homes are probably within the 50 device limit. It's not the size of the house that matters but load count. 

Those with larger homes, Ra2 select can handle up to 99 devices (repeater takes 1 from the 100 limit). While more expensive, if a person is playing in that bag park, most likely they have the finances to install- especially if they do it over time. Ditto for Ra2. You're not finding a small home with an extremely high load count. To have a need for 200 devices, one most likely has a mansion. 

Lutron offers a free course so the end user can program their own system. Unless you need multiple repeaters it's simply am investment in time. Even the advanced class is affordable at 650 bucks. While not free, if one could afford RR2 prices and lots of devices- what's a 650 dollar investment?