Insteon being discontinued?

[DAlter01]

58 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

So it seems that the consensus is that while Insteon is not really discontinued it is going off in a direction that does not align with the sort of Prosumer HA crowd who currently use ISY/Insteon. So the next big question is whether there is ANY product or protocol interested in being the successor in this space? Just off the top of my head I see the following:

UPB does not have enough market share to assume the role.

Lutron Caseta would be pretty good if Lutron didn't intentionally cripple the capacity and limit the product offerings to prevent erosion of the more expensive RadioRA lines. It is designed specifically not scale into the DIY Prosumer space.

Lutron RadioRA is focused on electrician installed lighting solutions and has only minimal support for home automation. That coupled with unfortunate design decisions (push on/push off instead of a true toggle with separate on and off) plus the high cost plus the authorized training requirement pretty much rule it out for DIY Prosumers.

Z-Wave has the best range of matching devices that could substitute for exisisting Insteon items and avoids the dreaded overcrowded 2.4GHz frequency range but the protocol is extremely complex and the so-called benefis of having a "mesh network" rather than a broadcast/repeat one quickly break down as you try to scale up to Prosumer levels. The optimazation alone (I think Hubitat suggests you allow a full day for each tier as you install devices in tiered rings out from the controller) makes it a non-starter for doing an installation for a friend or customer. How many days can you devote just to configuring and optimizing something before it just becomes ridiculous... and that assummes there were no glitches enrolling anything!

Hue at least understands the concept of having a local switch to provide on/off, and color scene control. Unfortunately they are reluctant to do much for the Prosumer like make actual wired switches that fit into actual ganged switchplates. More importantly they just can't find a way to scale. They claim Zigbee communication suffers with more than 50 devices on a single network but are focused on products at the bulb level rather than the switch level. My front hall chandelier has 10 candelabra bulbs so it would consume 20% of a Hue hub's capaity for just one fixture! And then there is the premium cost and lack of load bearing switches to use on non-smart bulbs.

General Zigbee has a lot of great battery devices and color bulbs but switches and keypad options are poor. Also operate in the evil 2.4GHz range. There are additionally some challenges around standards enforcement.

LoRa avoids 2.4GHz and just works but the device selection is limited and the easiest brands to integrate, such a Yolink, have a cloud service dependency. 

Matter is back to 2.4GHz again and might even want to push traffic through your router. I hope consumer routers get a lot better CPU and RAM before folks try to scle that protocol. 

X10 is obsolete but it is inexpensive and manages to avoid most of the issues that the other protocols have. I wonder if it will make a comeback?

If there is an obvious Insteon successor I guess I am just not seeing it.

And I thought I was thorough, I tip my hat to you sir.

[DAlter01]

32 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Lutron! Polisy supports caseta and Ra2. Not sure about select. However, they do have an API that would allow for further development so one could use the Isy to offer more capability than what Lutron supplies. 

Caseta has a place with it's low price entry point. This becomes even more appealing when coupled with the Isy. Scalability isn't as much of an issue as most people homes are probably within the 50 device limit. It's not the size of the house that matters but load count. 

Those with larger homes, Ra2 select can handle up to 99 devices (repeater takes 1 from the 100 limit). While more expensive, if a person is playing in that bag park, most likely they have the finances to install- especially if they do it over time. Ditto for Ra2. You're not finding a small home with an extremely high load count. To have a need for 200 devices, one most likely has a mansion. 

Lutron offers a free course so the end user can program their own system. Unless you need multiple repeaters it's simply am investment in time. Even the advanced class is affordable at 650 bucks. While not free, if one could afford RR2 prices and lots of devices- what's a 650 dollar investment?

So, in my optimistic world, you are correct that Lutron is the obvious choice and the fences Lutron builds are the reasons why there is a big opening for Nokia to have a substantial opportunity for success.  IF (big IF), they have a system that works, they don't require people to go back to school, they don't put a device count limit on them, and they don't charge more for the same device just becuae you want more devices,  you don't dangle a hard limit in front of someone and tell them they may need to rip out all of their equipment and buy new more expensive equipment if you want to expand (these last two bother met a lot), and with those advantages over Lutron you have a big field to operate in.    

I would have done Lutron rather than Insteon in my current house if it wasn't for these fences Lutron builds.  

Edited August 13, 2021 by DAlter01

[lilyoyo1]

28 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

So, in my optimistic world, you are correct that Lutron is the obvious choice and the fences Lutron builds are the reasons why there is a big opening for Nokia to have a substantial opportunity for success.  IF (big IF), they have a system that works, they don't require people to go back to school, they don't put a device count limit on them, and they don't charge more for the same device just becuae you want more devices (this one bothers me a lot), and you have a big field to operate in.    

I respect Lutron for the classes. Their product is their name. A novice person installing it without any understanding can ruin that name. It's bad enough in dealing with complaints due to bad installers, imagine how bad it could be from end users. This is especially so the larger the project and greater cost. 

I have no issues with the product line either. Every company does it. Look at the Isy. You have the base version, pro, zwave, polisy, and polisy pro. All going up in price. UDI could have simply came out with the 994iz ir pro and not had anything else. Ditto for polisy pro. Yet they've done the same handicapping to offer lower priced options. 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I respect Lutron for the classes. Their product is their name. A novice person installing it without any understanding can ruin that name. It's bad enough in dealing with complaints due to bad installers, imagine how bad it could be from end users. This is especially so the larger the project and greater cost. 

I have no issues with the product line either. Every does it. Look at the Isy. You have the base version, pro, zwave, polisy, and polisy pro. All going up in price. UDI could have simply came out with the 994iz ir pro and not had anything else. Ditto for polisy pro. Yet they've done the same handicapping to offer lower priced options. 

 

i don't mind the classes either and would have gladly taken one.  But, requiring the class hurts adoption of the protocol by new users and I made my point to suggest the requirement provides an opportunity for Nokia to gain market share by not requiring the classes.  Of course, the Nokia system better be easy enough for a low achieving 5th grader to set up or not having classes is going to hurt their reputation to a degree.  

I do still object to the hard limit and pricing tiers.  Your example of the ISY pricing on the UDI is marginally applicable at best.  The pricing differences on the ISY is very small.  I probably needed one with all the bells and whistles for my system but didn't even take the time to figure it out and just bought the expensive one because the increase price was nominal so I thought I would just future proof my install and buy one with everything (except IR).  And, you only need one ISY per HA install. 

For devices, however, I needed about 150.  I thought about 115 but you know how things can grow.   When you charge 4X for a device because someone wants to buy more of your product, that is just a little opposite of what I am accustomed to which is usually getting a better price when I buy more.  If they changed 25% more, Ok, no problem, but 4X, come on....., that feels like going to get my haircut and becuase I drive a nice car the price goes up 4x.  Same barber, same skill, same retail storefront, hmm.   Can I afford Lutron, yep, but the sensation of someone digging into my pocket a little deeper than I feel they shold each time I want to make a tweak just rubs me wrong.  

In my next house will I put in Lutron Homeworks or RRA, maybe, depends on what is going on with Nokia and others.  It might be my only viable option.  At that point I may just have to get over it.  Until then, I get to vent on this forum.   Thanks for being my therapy listener.

Edited August 13, 2021 by DAlter01

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

i don't mind the classes either and would have gladly taken one.  But, requiring the class hurts adoption of the protocol by new users and I made my point to suggest the requirement provides an opportunity for Nokia to gain market share by not requiring the classes.  Of course, the Nokia system better be easy enough for a low achieving 5th grader to set up or not having classes is going to hurt their reputation to a degree.  

I do still object to the hard limit and pricing tiers.  Your example of the ISY pricing on the UDI is marginally applicable at best.  The pricing differences on the ISY is very small.  I probably needed one with all the bells and whistles for my system but didn't even take the time to figure it out and just bought the expensive one because the increase price was nominal so I thought I would just future proof my install and buy one with everything (except IR).  And, you only need one ISY per HA install. 

For devices, however, I needed about 150.  I thought about 115 but you know how things can grow.   When you charge 4X for a device because someone wants to buy more of your product, that is just a little opposite of what I am accustomed to which is usually getting a better price when I buy more.  If they changed 25% more, Ok, no problem, but 4X, come on....., that feels like going to get my haircut and becuase I drive a nice car the price goes up 4x.  Same barber, same skill, same retail storefront, hmm.   Can I afford Lutron, yep, but the sensation of someone digging into my pocket a little deeper than I feel they shold each time I want to make a tweak just rubs me wrong.  

In my next house will I put in Lutron Homeworks or RA2, maybe, depends on what is going on with Nokia and others.  It might be my only viable option.  At that point I may just have to get over it.  Until then, I get to vent on this forum.   Thanks for being my therapy listener.

I get what your saying and I understand how you feel. Keep in mind though that Luton is also in the high end/luxury market. Caseta was developed for people who wanted the name without the price. That's why Mercedes has the A class all the way up to the Maybach line. Maybach for those with the budget. A class for those without the funds who wants the name.

There are subtle differences in how things work with them which may not be apparant to most people from the outside. If you do decide to switch though- you will see a huge difference in operation. 

My hope with the new insteon switches is that they open things up by the time we start on our next house as I'd love to use those. Thankfully construction costs exploded so we held off. If they don't open it up by then, I'm going with C4. 

[DAlter01]

On 8/12/2021 at 5:51 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

I get what your saying and I understand how you feel. Keep in mind though that Luton is also in the high end/luxury market. Caseta was developed for people who wanted the name without the price. That's why Mercedes has the A class all the way up to the Maybach line. Maybach for those with the budget. A class for those without the funds who wants the name.

There are subtle differences in how things work with them which may not be apparant to most people from the outside. If you do decide to switch though- you will see a huge difference in operation. 

My hope with the new insteon switches is that they open things up by the time we start on our next house as I'd love to use those. Thankfully construction costs exploded so we held off. If they don't open it up by then, I'm going with C4. 

Thanks, the Mercedes analogy is a better one than the ISY example.    A Lutron switch, yeah, they might spend another $1 building an RRA switch vs a Caseta switch, but probably less, most of the difference is in the programming, I think.  Again, charge more for the extra functionality, I have no problem with that,   Charge 25% more, 50% more, but 4X.....?  Its just a smart switch.  If Insteon didn't exist I would have bought Lutron or C4, but when you know you can get a very good product for 1/4th the cost, it's tough to spend that and feel right about it, or it is for me.    

Edited August 14, 2021 by DAlter01

[DAlter01]

18 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

My hope with the new insteon switches is that they open things up by the time we start on our next house as I'd love to use those. Thankfully construction costs exploded so we held off. If they don't open it up by then, I'm going with C4. 

I doubt they expand the product line very fast.  That might have been their original intent but I've got to believe this chip shortage has really impacted any plans they had for a smooth roll-out.  But, you seem to have an inside track to the minds of some of the people at Smartlabs so maybe you know an open platform is a true possibility and is part of the business model (subject to change of course).  I hope its coming.

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

I doubt they expand the product line very fast.  That might have been their original intent but I've got to believe this chip shortage has really impacted any plans they had for a smooth roll-out.  But, you seem to have an inside track to the minds of some of the people at Smartlabs so maybe you know an open platform is a true possibility and is part of the business model (subject to change of course).  I hope its coming.

I don't need them to expand fast. They already have the devices i want. I can fill in the rest with other stuff. But yes, the chip shortage has hurt things tremendously. I beta test for a couple of companies and there are quite a few devices not yet released due to it

Edited August 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[upstatemike]

So talking about Lutron price tiers and training requirements just glosses over the original point that Caseta switches are nice to use with distinct on (top) and off (bottom) rocker buttons. RadioRA switches are push on/push off press anywhere switches like you would find on the very low end of the spectrum such as basic Zigbee switches. Regardless of the architecture advantages RadioRA is useless to me unless they get better switch offerings. (Why not make a RadioRA version of the Caseta switch body?)

Caseta on the other hand is nice to use but no plug-in relay modules, no keypads, no way to link a wall switch directly to lamp module so they both come on together (maybe the Caseta Hub gets around this?) 

I can probably get around some of this by using an HA controller to let me mix Caseta switches with RadioRA2 keypads but I kind of prefer to have basic light functionality like the associations between swithes or between switches and keypads to work even if my HA controller is down.

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, upstatemike said:

So talking about Lutron price tiers and training requirements just glosses over the original point that Caseta switches are nice to use with distinct on (top) and off (bottom) rocker buttons. RadioRA switches are push on/push off press anywhere switches like you would find on the very low end of the spectrum such as basic Zigbee switches. Regardless of the architecture advantages RadioRA is useless to me unless they get better switch offerings. (Why not make a RadioRA version of the Caseta switch body?)

Caseta on the other hand is nice to use but no plug-in relay modules, no keypads, no way to link a wall switch directly to lamp module so they both come on together (maybe the Caseta Hub gets around this?) 

I can probably get around some of this by using an HA controller to let me mix Caseta switches with RadioRA2 keypads but I kind of prefer to have basic light functionality like the associations between swithes or between switches and keypads to work even if my HA controller is down.

I understand your sentiments but when combined with the Isy, missing peripherals are diminished (even with insteon you'd use the isy). It's one thing to do it as a business and another as a diy hobbyist. As a business I wouldn't use Caseta at all except low end homes which I no longer do anyway. 

My go to is C4. I'd use RR2 otherwise (planning on it once Isy is ported to polisy completely). As a business (and at home) architecture is most important. I need to have utmost confidence when it comes to user experience. Looks are secondary. Having both is just icing on the cake (which is why C4 is my go to). But then again, things like that are personal choices. Lutron does have their Grafik T switches which look alot better than their standard offerings. 

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I understand your sentiments but when combined with the Isy, missing peripherals are diminished (even with insteon you'd use the isy). It's one thing to do it as a business and another as a diy hobbyist. As a business I wouldn't use Caseta at all except low end homes which I no longer do anyway. 

My go to is C4. I'd use RR2 otherwise (planning on it once Isy is ported to polisy completely). As a business (and at home) architecture is most important. I need to have utmost confidence when it comes to user experience. Looks are secondary. Having both is just icing on the cake (which is why C4 is my go to). But then again, things like that are personal choices. Lutron does have their Grafik T switches which look alot better than their standard offerings. 

It would be nice if somebody could explain what and why C4 is!

We keep hearing about this best kept secret.

[lilyoyo1]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

It would be nice if somebody could explain what and why C4 is!

We keep hearing about this best kept secret.

Control 4

[DAlter01]

1 minute ago, larryllix said:

It would be nice if somebody could explain what and why C4 is!

We keep hearing about this best kept secret.

Control 4, it uses a proprietary Zigbee protocol.  It is sold and installed only by contractors approved by C4,

[larryllix]

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Control 4, it uses a proprietary Zigbee protocol.  It is sold and installed only by contractors approved by C4,

Everything I read states that Zigbee is a mess with standards barely starting to evolve in an attempt to recover it's name.

...and yet so much secretive BS has been spread around. Has anybody actually used C4 and can report anything or would you have to kill me after?

[MrBill]

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Has anybody actually used C4

I know of a C4 installation... I'm not sure if it's the nature of the homeowner, the nature of the product (C4), or the nature of the allegedly trained installers, but the system has been under constant change and maintenance for years.  It seems like there's always something broken, not working, being upgraded, etc   It is about a $5mil lake mansion, so it's not a small system.

[asbril]

5 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I know of a C4 installation... I'm not sure if it's the nature of the homeowner, the nature of the product (C4), or the nature of the allegedly trained installers, but the system has been under constant change and maintenance for years.  It seems like there's always something broken, not working, being upgraded, etc   It is about a $5mil lake mansion, so it's not a small system.

Two people in my close circle have C4 and neither of them has had any serious issues. It is a close to perfect system but it needs to be installed and maintained by a certified installer. This is for the high-end luxury homes, very good but expensive.

Just as with cars, the lower-end systems on the HA spectrum will learn from the high-end like C4, and over time the  Zwave-ISY combination  will be as good as C4.  This will require better uniformity of Zwave devices (among different manufacturers) and improved communication that comes with the Zwave 700 series.  With UD Mobile, ISY is already working on a better user interface, so the future looks good, even if it may take time. 

[larryllix]

I keep hearing about this secret C4 society but with a claim of 35,000 devices they can control, they must be using bridges into Insteon, Zwave, Zigbee (with it's many propietary interfaces), X10, UPB, and so many more.

From what I have seen so far of C4, it's biggest brag for C4 s a cool tablet/cell phone interface, I would have been so impressed with about 5 years ago, but now seems so outdated, and would be tossed into a drawer by now in my house.

I was shown the GUI  on a 65 inch touchscreen panel. I was more interested in the monitor than the system as the underworks was either always kept secret or the installers didn't know.

 

[asbril]

13 minutes ago, larryllix said:

C4 s a cool tablet

My friend uses a tablet, and control screens in every room, to control his C4 setup, though I am not sure that it is a C4 specific or one put by the installer. The App and screens allow him to control  A/C, TV's, music, lights, curtains etc. As he only uses the condo a few times a year, he occasionally has issues with the music streaming but other than that few issues.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Everything I read states that Zigbee is a mess with standards barely starting to evolve in an attempt to recover it's name.

...and yet so much secretive BS has been spread around. Has anybody actually used C4 and can report anything or would you have to kill me after?

C4 is dealer only and not a diy product. and its own ecosystem. I install it and it's wonderful. From my experience most bad installs are due to dealer error (various reasons) vs the actual product.

ZigBee is great within it's ecosystem. Problems arise due to the diy market. People do not take the time to understand what they are working with and blame poor product/protocol, or poor investment instead of looking at themselves.

This isn't just with ZigBee but all protocols. We see it most often here with Zwave (though that has its own issues in itself). In the consumer realm, there is a problem with compatibility but that isn't an issue with Control 4 as it was designed to work as one

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[larryllix]

17 minutes ago, asbril said:

My friend uses a tablet, and control screens in every room, to control his C4 setup, though I am not sure that it is a C4 specific or one put by the installer. The App and screens allow him to control  A/C, TV's, music, lights, curtains etc. As he only uses the condo a few times a year, he occasionally has issues with the music streaming but other than that few issues.

At one time I was so leaning toward a tablet on the wall but now, with the voice controls I would not want to have to get up to walk to the tablet and then scroll through multi-levels of screens to operate some coloured light scene. The other possibility would be many tablets beside each chair with coffee/tea splashed on cracked screens under the clutter of magazines and remotes.

Long live Alexa and  GH! Where unlimited words can be spoken to control unlimited devices and settings!!

[upstatemike]

52 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Everything I read states that Zigbee is a mess with standards barely starting to evolve in an attempt to recover it's name.

...and yet so much secretive BS has been spread around. Has anybody actually used C4 and can report anything or would you have to kill me after?

I agree. While the Control4 switches look nice and the system claims to do most of what I would want, the information available is just to vague to make me want to look into it further. Some questions I would like to know the answer to (without committing to get on their marketing list and have to agree to a visit from a salesman) would include:

-What do they use as a server for locally stored music (I'm not much into streaming)?

-How do they handle automation announcements like door open reminders or driveway alerts?

-What are the capacity limits for switches and other lighting devices?

-Do they have lamp modules and plug-in modules for old houses where wiring changes are not possible?

-How do they handle color bulbs? Can I turn on a room and set a color scene right from the wall switch?

- How easy is it to set up uncommon automations? (Example: I track the run time of each furnace and well pump and each time they cycle I have an announcement to tell me the total run time for that cycle, the total run time for the day and the total cycle count for the day.)

-How do they integrate with voice assistants? What can you control or not control via voice? For example: Can I tell my voice assistant to start a specific local playlist in a specific room at a specific volume?

-How is the automation system at triggering from local control of light switches? If somebody turns on the light in my private study can I have a whole house announcement alerting me somebody is in there?

-Will it integrate with my Weatherflow weather station or some other local weather station? (I mainly use for whole house announcements when lightning is detected).

-What kind of shades does it work with?

-What home energy systems will it work with? Can it integrate with my Brultech GEM?

-What does it use for wired fire/security? Elk? DSC?

There is just too little information available to think seriously about this product.

[silverton38]

13 hours ago, upstatemike said:

So talking about Lutron price tiers and training requirements just glosses over the original point that Caseta switches are nice to use with distinct on (top) and off (bottom) rocker buttons. RadioRA switches are push on/push off press anywhere switches like you would find on the very low end of the spectrum such as basic Zigbee switches. Regardless of the architecture advantages RadioRA is useless to me unless they get better switch offerings. (Why not make a RadioRA version of the Caseta switch body?)

Caseta on the other hand is nice to use but no plug-in relay modules, no keypads, no way to link a wall switch directly to lamp module so they both come on together (maybe the Caseta Hub gets around this?) 

I can probably get around some of this by using an HA controller to let me mix Caseta switches with RadioRA2 keypads but I kind of prefer to have basic light functionality like the associations between swithes or between switches and keypads to work even if my HA controller is down.

You are mistaken about Caseta; you can link a wall switch or a pico remote to a lamp module. You can do it through the hub or point  to point. The pico remotes can be mounted in electrical boxes and look just like a switch. You can also buy different colors and that is use for all ON/OFF applications. They also have blinds that work nicely with the remote. My main objection is the lack of serious programming and it is not instant on and off.....though the closest to Insteon.

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

I know of a C4 installation... I'm not sure if it's the nature of the homeowner, the nature of the product (C4), or the nature of the allegedly trained installers, but the system has been under constant change and maintenance for years.  It seems like there's always something broken, not working, being upgraded, etc   It is about a $5mil lake mansion, so it's not a small system.

There are bad installers for a variety of reasons. Some try to give the customers what they want due to budget reasons. This is wrong because not having enough devices spread throughout properly does effect performance. Or they'll try to do too much, which just like modern luxury cars tend to constantly have issues. It could also be an installer putting it in a known bad environment so they can get paid.

For example, I had a customer building a 5 story house in Newport beach on a hillside. This was a mostly stone house with lots of thick marble floors. My partner there does homeworks and Crestron so that's who I bought in. While the customer preferred C4 I knew he'd have nothing but problems due to the nature of the house. Why deal with constant service calls etc. All money isn't good money. The homeowner hated the extra cost but appreciated the fact that I didn't go that route. 

[upstatemike]

3 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

You are mistaken about Caseta; you can link a wall switch or a pico remote to a lamp module. You can do it through the hub or point  to point. The pico remotes can be mounted in electrical boxes and look just like a switch. You can also buy different colors and that is use for all ON/OFF applications. They also have blinds that work nicely with the remote. My main objection is the lack of serious programming and it is not instant on and off.....though the closest to Insteon.

 

Thanks for the information on linking switches to lamp modules. I knew you can link wall mounted Picos but that is no use if the switch location needs to control a load. Nice to know that I can link a switch directly to a lamp module without needing a Caseta hub.

Edited August 13, 2021 by upstatemike

[silverton38]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

It would be nice if somebody could explain what and why C4 is!

We keep hearing about this best kept secret.

Control 4 (C4) is a fancy high end lighting system. I do not like it at all but many high end homes have it. It uses its own version of Zigbee.

 

https://www.control4.com/solutions/smart-lighting/

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by silverton38