upstatemike Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: There are bad installers for a variety of reasons. Some try to give the customers what they want due to budget reasons. This is wrong because not having enough devices spread throughout properly does effect performance. Or they'll try to do too much, which just like modern luxury cars tend to constantly have issues. It could also be an installer putting it in a known bad environment so they can get paid. For example, I had a customer building a 5 story house in Newport beach on a hillside. This was a mostly stone house with lots of thick marble floors. My partner there does homeworks and Crestron so that's who I bought in. While the customer preferred C4 I knew he'd have nothing but problems due to the nature of the house. Why deal with constant service calls etc. All money isn't good money. The homeowner hated the extra cost but appreciated the fact that I didn't go that route. This is why I do not like any kind of "mesh network". Instead of spending time building out a mesh I just want to install what I need where I need it and then move on. Any time I can use a Low-Ra device that is going to be my number one choice because they just work... through stone, marble, whatever, they just work. Too bad there are so few LoRa devices available.
silverton38 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, upstatemike said: Thanks for the information on linking switches to lamp modules. I knew you can link wall mounted Picos but that is no use if the switch location needs to control a load. Nice to know that I can link a switch directly to a lamp module without needing a Caseta hub. You can also link a switch to lamp module.
silverton38 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, upstatemike said: This is why I do not like any kind of "mesh network". Instead of spending time building out a mesh I just want to install what I need where I need it and then move on. Any time I can use a Low-Ra device that is going to be my number one choice because they just work... through stone, marble, whatever, they just work. Too bad there are so few LoRa devices available. Lutron stuff does work through almost anything. I do not think I ever had an issue. Insteon also does this by using the power lines when RF is unavailable. No one can beat Lutron's RF it is best in the industry period.
lilyoyo1 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, larryllix said: I keep hearing about this secret C4 society but with a claim of 35,000 devices they can control, they must be using bridges into Insteon, Zwave, Zigbee (with it's many propietary interfaces), X10, UPB, and so many more. From what I have seen so far of C4, it's biggest brag for C4 s a cool tablet/cell phone interface, I would have been so impressed with about 5 years ago, but now seems so outdated, and would be tossed into a drawer by now in my house. I was shown the GUI on a 65 inch touchscreen panel. I was more interested in the monitor than the system as the underworks was either always kept secret or the installers didn't know. C4 is much more than the tablet/app. Its up to the installer how capable the system becomes. Most installers (myself included) do limit the system to being a control system due to potential issues of something not working properly for whatever reason. To be honest, that's what most customers want. There is some automation but it's very limited to things such as lights turning off when a movie starts or lights turning on when a person comes home. Most things are timer based, app or voice controlled. The system is much more capable than that...Most installers simply limit it for customer satisfaction. In my house I'll go all out as I can do my own troubleshooting. In someone else's, i wouldn't do have of what I do. But that's why we have the diy market. For those who want to do all the extras. They can take things as far as they want to their hearts content Edited August 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1
upstatemike Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, silverton38 said: Lutron stuff does work through almost anything. I do not think I ever had an issue. Insteon also does this by using the power lines when RF is unavailable. No one can beat Lutron's RF it is best in the industry period. I agree the lower frequency of Clear Connect is best to penetrate tough materials but LoRa has better range (I don't know why). You might need a repeater to ensure full house coverage with Clear Connect but a single LoRa hub will cover the entire house on its own. (Again, I don't know why)
lilyoyo1 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, upstatemike said: I agree the lower frequency of Clear Connect is best to penetrate tough materials but LoRa has better range (I don't know why). You might need a repeater to ensure full house coverage with Clear Connect but a single LoRa hub will cover the entire house on its own. (Again, I don't know why) Having better range but limited device line makes it a non starter for me. Plus having the support behind it for true integration matters as well. As it stands today, I can see LoRa being great for hobbyists and commercial applications but not really for the avg consumer or residential installer
upstatemike Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 I think if Lutron releases a Caseta keypad (that can also control a load), a Caseta outdoor plug in on/off module, and a way for Picos and Caseta switches to control Hue bulbs the way a Lutron Aurora switch does, then Caseta would move to the top of the list as the DIY replacement for Insteon. I am assuming the low device count per hub would be addressed by having a Polisy or other HA controller aggregate multiple hubs. This would cover the basic Insteon devices that you would need to replace plus add the color bulb control that Insteon currently lacks... without needing to build out some kind of complex mesh or fight contention in the 2.4GHz range.
upstatemike Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 34 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Having better range but limited device line makes it a non starter for me. Plus having the support behind it for true integration matters as well. As it stands today, I can see LoRa being great for hobbyists and commercial applications but not really for the avg consumer or residential installer Unfortunately I have to agree. I mostly use it for flood or contact sensors in tough signal locations or very long range out to a mailbox or gate.
asbril Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) Is anyone else also getting tired of " Insteon being discontinued?" ? Edited August 13, 2021 by asbril 2
silverton38 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) Most people are Insteon users so we want to know what is going on. P.S. I am impressed with the 80+ Z-wave devices. I have issues trying to get it up that high. Edited August 13, 2021 by silverton38 1
lilyoyo1 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, upstatemike said: I think if Lutron releases a Caseta keypad (that can also control a load), a Caseta outdoor plug in on/off module, and a way for Picos and Caseta switches to control Hue bulbs the way a Lutron Aurora switch does, then Caseta would move to the top of the list as the DIY replacement for Insteon. I am assuming the low device count per hub would be addressed by having a Polisy or other HA controller aggregate multiple hubs. This would cover the basic Insteon devices that you would need to replace plus add the color bulb control that Insteon currently lacks... without needing to build out some kind of complex mesh or fight contention in the 2.4GHz range. That's the beauty of the Isy. It can allow you to integrate different things together which allows you to accomplish what you want
lilyoyo1 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, asbril said: Is anyone else also getting tired of " Insteon being discontinued?" ? Been tired of it. I've heard that since 2013
stealle Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 Hey I started this thread! ? I’m still tuned in! ?? 2 1
silverton38 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, stealle said: Hey I started this thread! ? I’m still tuned in! ?? So have you decided to buy more Insteon?
MrBill Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, asbril said: Is anyone else also getting tired of " Insteon being discontinued?" ? This is the current Popcorn thread....
DAlter01 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 50 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Been tired of it. I've heard that since 2013 Eventually it will be true in 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35.... years. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, larryllix said: IOW: The HA person is part of a minority group, while the majority are remote control people. I think we all know this, don't like it, and are whining/crying about it. Fact of life in the market right now. It's what I've been saying for a while now Edited August 13, 2021 by lilyoyo1
asbril Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: Been tired of it. I've heard that since 2013 Now I am snoring
lilyoyo1 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, asbril said: Now I am snoring Must be a light sleeper. ? 1
silverton38 Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 1 hour ago, larryllix said: Yeah my son has a larger mesh WiFi network because he cannot get an cables between areas. Instead of the 3 nodes recommended he has 6 nodes but still has problems. Suddenly I remembered he has an abandoned in-floor heating system and that usually means some slab concrete material between floors. On top of that the abandoned PEX is the aluminum layer type, further blocking signals. His stairwell is likely the only RF channel space between floors. He has some Insteon devices, many Alexa, a few other protocol devices, and although he runs a totally online company as a Univ. level computer science grad, he refuses to even look (meaning programming) at HA, only uses remote control stuff. Maybe that is a good thing, given his concrete signal barriers between floors. Insteon or Lutron Caseta would be his realistic options. I would avoid WIFI switch and use wired mesh routers if he can.
larryllix Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, silverton38 said: Insteon or Lutron Caseta would be his realistic options. I would avoid WIFI switch and use wired mesh routers if he can. Huh? He is using mesh routers. That was my point. They don't function well in many RF environments and RF HA doesn't either. I am in the process of trying to dump my WiFi mesh system. Many devices will not tolerate it when it tries to switch node connectors. There is only one way a node can force a reconnection. It turns off the signal and the devices find a new one. That fails to work on many devices. This is bad with HA, VR and some streaming devices. Edited August 13, 2021 by larryllix
asbril Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, larryllix said: mesh routers. That was my point. They don't function well in many RF environments and RF HA doesn't either. I have the Google Wifi mesh network with 3 pods. It works great.
larryllix Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, asbril said: I have the Google Wifi mesh network with 3 pods. It works great. Sure. He has a bad environment that doesn't support RF mesh. IIRC he is on his 4th or 5th mesh node WiFi brand system. With 6 nodes he has it working most of the time. Any electrical noise in the house causes connection drops still. I had to find out the hard way. Mesh systems are designed with much lower power WiFi signals and old fashion routers do much better for outside connections. Many systems use repeaters of the same signals and can slow WiFi throughput down immensely.
upstatemike Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 1 hour ago, larryllix said: IOW: The HA person is part of a minority group, while the majority are remote control people. I think we all know this, don't like it, and are whining/crying about it. Fact of life in the market right now. The "remote control people" were also a minority just a few years ago (fewer years than it takes to establish a new protocol or product line) and now they are the mass market mainstream. The company that wins is going to be the one that caters to the current mainstream but can also accomodate the HA minority who will move into mainstream status faster than anybody realizes. I think the voice assistant makers are in tune with this evolution; I think the old school switch and lighting companies are not. I'm sure my Amazon Echos will quickly adapt to whatever comes along while Lutron may flounder as it continues to resist expanding Caseta capabilities because a Caseta keypad might rob business from the protected RadioRA market.
larryllix Posted August 13, 2021 Posted August 13, 2021 31 minutes ago, upstatemike said: The "remote control people" were also a minority just a few years ago (fewer years than it takes to establish a new protocol or product line) and now they are the mass market mainstream. The company that wins is going to be the one that caters to the current mainstream but can also accomodate the HA minority who will move into mainstream status faster than anybody realizes. I think the voice assistant makers are in tune with this evolution; I think the old school switch and lighting companies are not. I'm sure my Amazon Echos will quickly adapt to whatever comes along while Lutron may flounder as it continues to resist expanding Caseta capabilities because a Caseta keypad might rob business from the protected RadioRA market. Yeah. Well worded! We were a small minority group before, and now an even smaller minority group, by percentage. We are trying to take a product, not designed for our purposes and extend it's uses past what it is designed to do, and might be losing at it, more than we want to admit. The remote control style items are beginning to cross lines into HA somewhat and that give hope. Amazon has been quite impressive. Small logic bit are beginning to show up in their app even. I have been tooting this for some time now with many nay sayers. eg. Look at the Insteon MS II. It appears to be designed for exclusive Hub usage while thwarting ISY users. No much programming can be done with the MS II now and timing must be left to the internals of the MS II for lighting usage. Why would SH discontinue a product already designed, being manufactured, and being purchased by HA users?
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