Insteon being discontinued?

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Yeah. Well worded! We were a small minority group before, and now an even smaller minority group, by percentage. We are trying to take a product, not designed for our purposes and extend it's uses past what it is designed to do, and might be losing at it, more than we want to admit. The remote control style items are beginning to cross lines into HA somewhat and that give hope. Amazon has been quite impressive. Small logic bit are beginning to show up in their app even.

I have been tooting this for some time now with many nay sayers. eg. Look at the Insteon MS II. It appears to be designed for exclusive Hub usage while thwarting ISY users. No much programming can be done with the MS II now and timing must be left to the internals of the MS II for lighting usage. Why would SH discontinue a product already designed, being manufactured, and being purchased by HA users?

Right now the MSII not completely disco'd. Eventually however, it will be replaced by a newer version. 

[silverton38]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

The "remote control people" were also a minority just a few years ago (fewer years than it takes to establish a new protocol or product line) and now they are the mass market mainstream. The company that wins is going to be the one that caters to the current mainstream but can also accomodate the HA minority who will move into mainstream status faster than anybody realizes. I think the voice assistant makers are in tune with this evolution; I think the old school switch and lighting companies are not. I'm sure my Amazon Echos will quickly adapt to whatever comes along while Lutron may flounder as it continues to resist expanding Caseta capabilities because a Caseta keypad might rob business from the protected RadioRA market.

Caseta does allow 74 devices for their hub. You can use multiple hubs and or program the pico remote point to point since they do not need to be in the router.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

The "remote control people" were also a minority just a few years ago (fewer years than it takes to establish a new protocol or product line) and now they are the mass market mainstream. The company that wins is going to be the one that caters to the current mainstream but can also accomodate the HA minority who will move into mainstream status faster than anybody realizes. I think the voice assistant makers are in tune with this evolution; I think the old school switch and lighting companies are not. I'm sure my Amazon Echos will quickly adapt to whatever comes along while Lutron may flounder as it continues to resist expanding Caseta capabilities because a Caseta keypad might rob business from the protected RadioRA market.

None will really try to cater to power users. Products will simply be adapted by power users for their needs. Power users and wanna be power users cost too much. They are always looking for more and more. This means sinking money into R&D for new products that gives limited ROI. 

There's no comparison between voice assistants and hardware. They aren't in tune with power users needs. Just giving people what they may want. What they are capable of it's much different than a switch maker. One is cloud based software while the other is hardware. It's much easier to be fluid with cloud based stuff than hardware of anytime. Besides that, every single house in this country built has wall switches. Power users, hobbyists, and techies may want a bunch of features but the avg person just wants them to turn on, off, and dim. As long as they do that right, they don't care about anything else. 

Lutron won't flounder because of caseta as they are simply offering caseta as a low priced offering. It's an after thought for them. Their focus is on the high end market which is actually growing for them, makes more money, and less work.

It's those types of sentiments which makes companies move away and stay away from this segment. You know who doesn't care about those things? The avg person which is who Caseta was made for. All Lutron has to do is make sure it can work with the voice assistants and it'll be ok. If not, they'll just disco it and focus on the rest of their lines while they keep making money. 

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

None will really try to cater to power users. Products will simply be adapted by power users for their needs. Power users and wanna be power users cost too much. They are always looking for more and more. This means sinking money into R&D for new products that gives limited ROI. 

There's no comparison between voice assistants and hardware. They aren't in tune with power users needs. Just giving people what they may want. What they are capable of it's much different than a switch maker. One is cloud based software while the other is hardware. It's much easier to be fluid with cloud based stuff than hardware of anytime. Besides that, every single house in this country built has wall switches. Power users, hobbyists, and techies may want a bunch of features but the avg person just wants them to turn on, off, and dim. As long as they do that right, they don't care about anything else. 

Lutron won't flounder because of caseta as they are simply offering caseta as a low priced offering. It's an after thought for them. Their focus is on the high end market which is actually growing for them, makes more money, and less work.

It's those types of sentiments which makes companies move away and stay away from this segment. You know who doesn't care about those things? The avg person which is who Caseta was made for. All Lutron has to do is make sure it can work with the voice assistants and it'll be ok. If not, they'll just disco it and focus on the rest of their lines while they keep making money. 

Do any of those offer interfaces with almost every other protocol devices like pol/ISY can do?

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Do any of those offer interfaces with almost every other protocol devices like pol/ISY can do?

I'm not understanding your question

[larryllix]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm not understanding your question

Do any of those HA boxes offer other protocol interfaces  like pol/ISY can do? WiFi, Zwave, ZigBee etc.. rather than just one protocol in each box?

[simplextech]

13 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Do any of those HA boxes offer other protocol interfaces  like pol/ISY can do? WiFi, Zwave, ZigBee etc.. rather than just one protocol in each box?

Can you expand on this question a little more?  What HA boxes are you asking about?  I'm still catching up....

[lilyoyo1]

8 hours ago, larryllix said:

Do any of those HA boxes offer other protocol interfaces  like pol/ISY can do? WiFi, Zwave, ZigBee etc.. rather than just one protocol in each box?

If you're referring to control 4 then yes. Lutron- not exactly.  Not like the isy does.

Ra2 doesn't support other 3rd party stuff outside of some thermostats. However it can be added to other systems. 

C4 can integrate with much much much more than the isy. There are people using C4 systems with zwave and ra2 switches. Some use tp link plug-in modules. But can be integrated and more. 

Ra2 and C4 are not diy/hobbyist systems like the Isy. They are professional level gear designed specifically for their equipment. However it's the integrator that would be doing the work so what the system can do would be up to them

Edited August 14, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[DAlter01]

18 hours ago, larryllix said:

Look at the Insteon MS II. It appears to be designed for exclusive Hub usage while thwarting ISY users. No much programming can be done with the MS II now and timing must be left to the internals of the MS II for lighting usage.

I disagree on the MS II thwarting ISY users.  I've had great success with the device for lighting control.  However, it HAS to be done with some programming in the ISY.  This set of programs will allow the MSII to work essentially the same as a stand along wall motion detector.  I use it for that function successfully and I also use this programming to determine occupancy within my house where I have the ISY monitor several MSII's to determine ithe value of my house occupancy variable used by the ISY.

As part of this, It is important to set your MSII's internal timer to a short timeout interval.  I currently have mine set and 30 seconds and it works well for my purposes.  I previously had it set for 4 minutes and that did NOT work.  It did not work because if motion occured at least once every 4 minutes the ISY timer never reset because the MSII's internal timer never timed out.  With a 30 second MSII internal timeout inteveral, there only needs to be 30 seconds of inactivity (no motion) for the below programs to work.  In your situation, you may need to decrease that even further to the 10 second minimum offered by the MSII, or maybe you can increase it to something longer.

It took me 4 programs to create this logic and as suggested by HAbit, variables can be used instead of the values I have inserted for start times, the timeout interval, etc. to provide more flexibility and easier changes. 

 Program 1 (this program uses the MSII to set a state variable that indicates there is motion (occupancy).  It is set to do that only during specific times of the day)

Casita Motion Variable Set - [ID 0030][Parent 0019]

If
        'CASITA / Mot - Casita On - Inst' Status is On
    And From     7:00:00AM
        For      14 hours 
 
Then
        $Casita_State_Occupancy_Variable  = 1
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Program 2 (this program uses the change in the state of the above triggered state variable to turn the lights on)

Casita Lights On - [ID 0018][Parent 0019]

If
        $Casita_State_Occupancy_Variable is 1
 
Then
        Set 'CASITA / Casita Kitchen Downlights' On
        Set 'CASITA / Casita Living Rm Downlights' On
         
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Program 3 (This program looks for a change in state of the MSII's status to reset (restart) a program this is the timer part of this group of programs.  Each time there is a change in state of the MSII's status, the program it calls (the timer) restarts.

Casita Lights Off Trigger - [ID 0056][Parent 0019]

If
        'CASITA / Mot - Casita On - Inst' Status is Off
     Or 'CASITA / Mot - Casita On - Inst' Status is On
 
Then
        Run Program 'Casita Lights Off Execution' (Then Path)
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 
Program 4 (this program is the timer.  There are no conditions to run (no if statement).  The only part of this program that is used is the "then" statement.  Every time there is a change in state of the MSII this timer program restarts by Program 3 so it keeps resetting to a 90 minute countdown if there is a change of state of the MSII.  Once the 90 minutes of the timer in this paragraph has passed, the lights turn off and the state variable in program 1 is reset to an unoccupied condition which will then allow the lights to be turned on again the next time there is motion detected by the MSII.  This set of programs is specficially designed to allow an occupant to turn off the lights that have been turned on by this set of programs.  Once turned off by the occupant the lights will stay off until the space is unoccuped for 90 minutes as evidenced by there being no change of state of the MSII for 90 minutes.)

Casita Lights Off Execution - [ID 0054][Parent 0019]

If
   - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')
 
Then
        Wait  1 hour and 30 minutes 
        $Casita_State_Occupancy_Variable  = 0
        Set 'Z-Automation Scenes / Casita Lights Off' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

I've been using this logic for about 5 months and has worked without error.

Edited August 14, 2021 by DAlter01

[larryllix]

32 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I disagree on the MS II thwarting ISY users.  I've had great success with the device for lighting control.  However, it HAS to be done with some programming in the ISY.  This set of programs will allow the MSII to work essentially the same as a stand along wall motion detector.  I use it for that function successfully and I also use this programming to determine occupancy within my house where I have the ISY monitor several MSII's to determine ithe value of my house occupancy variable used by the ISY.

As part of this, It is important to set your MSII's internal timer to a short timeout interval.  I currently have mine set and 30 seconds and it works well for my purposes.  I previously had it set for 4 minutes and that did NOT work.  It did not work because if motion occured at least once every 4 minutes the ISY timer never reset because the MSII's internal timer never timed out.  With a 30 second MSII internal timeout inteveral, there only needs to be 30 seconds of inactivity (no motion) for the below programs to work.  In your situation, you may need to decrease that even further to the 10 second minimum offered by the MSII, or maybe you can increase it to something longer.

It took me 4 programs to create this logic and as suggested by HAbit, variables can be used instead of the values I have inserted for start times, the timeout interval, etc. to provide more flexibility and easier changes. 

 Program 1 (this program uses the MSII to set a state variable that indicates there is motion (occupancy).  It is set to do that only during specific times of the day)

Casita Motion Variable Set - [ID 0030][Parent 0019]

If
        'CASITA / Mot - Casita On - Inst' Status is On
    And From     7:00:00AM
        For      14 hours 
 
Then
        $Casita_State_Occupancy_Variable  = 1
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Program 2 (this program uses the change in the state of the above triggered state variable to turn the lights on)

Casita Lights On - [ID 0018][Parent 0019]

If
        $Casita_State_Occupancy_Variable is 1
 
Then
        Set 'CASITA / Casita Kitchen Downlights' On
        Set 'CASITA / Casita Living Rm Downlights' On
         
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Program 3 (This program looks for a change in state of the MSII's status to reset (restart) a program this is the timer part of this group of programs.  Each time there is a change in state of the MSII's status, the program it calls (the timer) restarts.

Casita Lights Off Trigger - [ID 0056][Parent 0019]

If
        'CASITA / Mot - Casita On - Inst' Status is Off
     Or 'CASITA / Mot - Casita On - Inst' Status is On
 
Then
        Run Program 'Casita Lights Off Execution' (Then Path)
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 
Program 4 (this program is the timer.  There are no conditions to run (no if statement).  The only part of this program that is used is the "then" statement.  Every time there is a change in state of the MSII this timer program restarts by Program 3 so it keeps resetting to a 90 minute countdown if there is a change of state of the MSII.  Once the 90 minutes of the timer in this paragraph has passed, the lights turn off and the state variable in program 1 is reset to an unoccupied condition which will then allow the lights to be turned on again the next time there is motion detected by the MSII.  This set of programs is specficially designed to allow an occupant to turn off the lights that have been turned on by this set of programs.  Once turned off by the occupant the lights will stay off until the space is unoccuped for 90 minutes as evidenced by there being no change of state of the MSII for 90 minutes.)

Casita Lights Off Execution - [ID 0054][Parent 0019]

If
   - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')
 
Then
        Wait  1 hour and 30 minutes 
        $Casita_State_Occupancy_Variable  = 0
        Set 'Z-Automation Scenes / Casita Lights Off' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

I've been using this logic in my casita for a few weeks and it is working as I've described without error.  I have used a modified version of this logic in my house to achieve a similar result and it has worked there also for the last 10 days without error.  I believe it is a successful logic sequence uninterupted by unknown/unintended features of the MSII and ISY.  YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY!!

I have heard all this stuff before but the MS II just doesn't function well with lighting and ISY programs.

I only use a direct connect scene for lighting controlled by a MS. Program control is way too slow of a response for that application.
Using a directly connected scene between an MS II and a light will constantly turn off the lamp with a short MS II timer.  Using a long internal MS II timer will lock off the might for that same time after motion has stopped being detected. The MS IIs contain a defective designed timer that has been applied to both on and off times.

While the MS II makes a good occupancy detector with ISY, it doesn't work satisfactorily for fast operation like the old MS did.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by larryllix

[DAlter01]

36 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I have heard all this stuff before but the MS II just doesn't function well with lighting and ISY programs.

I only use a direct connect scene for lighting controlled by a MS. Program control is way too slow of a response for that application.
Using a directly connected scene between an MS II and a light will constantly turn off the lamp with a short MS II timer.  Using a long internal MS II timer will lock off the might for that same time after motion has stopped being detected. The MS IIs contain a defective designed timer that has been applied to both on and off times.

While the MS II makes a good occupancy detector with ISY, it doesn't work well for fast operation like the old MS did.

The MSII works with the logic sequence described above funcations very well.  But, yes, as you describe, there is about a 1 to 1.5 second lag slower than a typical direct connect link.  If that lag doesn't work for your applicaiton, then yes, I understand why you find the MSII not viable.  But, I'd like the readers of the forum to know that if they can live with that slight lag then the MSII can work very well for lighting control through the ISY.  And, yes, for direct linking the MSII has a design flaw and doesn't work right so I don't use it with direct linking.

I tested the lighting control with both an Aeotec MS and the Insteon MSII and had faster response times with the MSII.  So, in my opinion, it is the best of the currently available options for lighting control with a motion sensor. 

I also have had the old Insteon MS's at my prior house and preferred them for direct linking.  However, they were also battery only.  I don't like battery operated devices so I prefer the trade off of having the slight lag of the MSII running through the ISY and gaining the hardwire capabiltiy with the MSII

Hopefully something better will come along but for now I am 99% satisfied with my MSII and my ONLY issue is the slight lag.  I find that an acceptable flaw for my purposes and believe many others can successfully use the MSII in their systems if they use the ISY for the logic.  Hopefully the above logic sequence will help some solve the inherent shortcomings of the MSII's built in logic so they can gain MS control of their lighting IF they can live with the slight lag.

We can also just agree to disagree on the MSII for lighting.  

Edited August 14, 2021 by DAlter01

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

I have heard all this stuff before but the MS II just doesn't function well with lighting and ISY programs.

I only use a direct connect scene for lighting controlled by a MS. Program control is way too slow of a response for that application.
Using a directly connected scene between an MS II and a light will constantly turn off the lamp with a short MS II timer.  Using a long internal MS II timer will lock off the might for that same time after motion has stopped being detected. The MS IIs contain a defective designed timer that has been applied to both on and off times.

While the MS II makes a good occupancy detector with ISY, it doesn't work satisfactorily for fast operation like the old MS did.

 

I use Insteon motion sensors to turn my under bed lights on/off during the night without any issues at all. Been working great since the Isy could add them (including beta units)

[Skipford]

I was shopping for micro dimmers, 1000W switches and the ballast dimmer modules from Insteon and they are all out of stock.

So to just refocus on this thread topic, is this due to pandemic demand or the company shutting down or material supply shortages?

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, Skipford said:

I was shopping for micro dimmers, 1000W switches and the ballast dimmer modules from Insteon and they are all out of stock.

So to just refocus on this thread topic, is this due to pandemic demand or the company shutting down or material supply shortages?

Material supply shortages in the aftermath of the pandemic has caused Smarthome to discontinue products that are not aligned to their new corporate strategy which appears to be marketing to high volume, entry level, mass market customers. The speculation here is that they are unlikely to resume manufacture of the low volume advanced products and will instead refresh the line of basic mainstream switches and keypads, and hub to grow the entry level, new customer base.

[larryllix]

I was shopping for micro dimmers, 1000W switches and the ballast dimmer modules from Insteon and they are all out of stock.
So to just refocus on this thread topic, is this due to pandemic demand or the company shutting down or material supply shortages?

Basically, nobody knows for sure either way.

We only know SH is very bad at marketing or English.

HCL!

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Skipford said:

I was shopping for micro dimmers, 1000W switches and the ballast dimmer modules from Insteon and they are all out of stock.

So to just refocus on this thread topic, is this due to pandemic demand or the company shutting down or material supply shortages?

This is insteon's focus during this global chip shortage. Their new line is geared towards mass market with no changes to the insteon line. Overall, there is a lesser focus on power users than it is for mass market adoption.

[Techman]

 Where and when did you find the above announcement?

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Techman said:

 Where and when did you find the above announcement?

Dealers get a monthly update

Edited August 15, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Techman]

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Dealers get a monthly update

Do they let also let you know what items are discontinued?  For those of us that are not Dealers we're left in the dark as their website doesn't differentiate between  discontinued vs. back ordered vs. sold out.

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, Techman said:

Do they let also let you know what items are discontinued?  For those of us that are not Dealers we're left in the dark as their website doesn't differentiate between  discontinued vs. back ordered vs. sold out.

Previous updates has said so In the past. 

[asbril]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:21 PM, silverton38 said:

Most people are Insteon users so we want to know what is going on. 

I understand but part of the discussion is going in circles.

(1) Many in this forum love Insteon

(2) Insteon is out of stock of several of their products

(3) SmartHome does not communicate (very well)

(4) SmartHome is not willing to work with UD re their new products.

(5) Insteon is or is not going out of business

(6) Nokia is coming with new line of (apparently) Insteon products.

[Techman]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

I understand but part of the discussion is going in circles.

(1) Many in this forum love Insteon

(2) Insteon is out of stock of several of their products

(3) SmartHome does not communicate (very well)

(4) SmartHome is not willing to work with UD re their new products.

(5) Insteon is or is not going out of business

(6) Nokia is coming with new line of (apparently) Insteon products.

The Nokia line is the new Insteon products sold by Smartlabs and private labeled with the Nokia Name. They may or may not be compatible with the legacy Insteon products. The Nokia line is due to be released in September

Edited August 15, 2021 by Techman

[lilyoyo1]

10 minutes ago, Techman said:

The Nokia line is the new Insteon products sold by Smartlabs and private labeled with the Nokia Name. They may or may not be compatible with the legacy Insteon products. The Nokia line is due to be released in September

They can be manually linked to existing products. They can't be linked via software at this time since none supports both.

[Brian H]

If Smarthome does what it has done with UDI in the past.

No useful information on the modules setup and access. We will NEVER see a Nokia module supported by UDI or any other new Insteon modules.

 

[larryllix]

9 minutes ago, Brian H said:

If Smarthome does what it has done with UDI in the past.

No useful information on the modules setup and access. We will NEVER see a Nokia module supported by UDI or any other new Insteon modules.

 

I think the key word was "IF" SH does not supply information.

I don't believe anybody ever posted SH won't supply information, yet. SH has supplied information on modules in the past.

IIRC, only  MS II had to be hacked for ISY usage, in the beginning.

Edited August 16, 2021 by larryllix