Insteon being discontinued?

[asbril]

23 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Is there something wrong with this thread?  It seems to be repeating posts from 20 pages ago..... or, is this starting to be a bit repetitive?

20 pages or 20 years ago ????

[Phil G]

On 10/4/2021 at 4:21 PM, DAlter01 said:

I just shot down that theory.  I needed two dimmers, ordered them Saturday, and got confirmation of shipment a few minutes ago.  It seems they do sell and ship hardware.   It seems they are still in business and seem to be doing exactly what they said they would be doing which is focusing on keeping stock of the high demand items...

Dittos D. I have made 2 large Smarthome purchases in the past month. About $900 total in dimmers and switches to finish what I started about 10 years ago (procrastinate much?). Anyway, all arrived as promised. ISY/Insteon is amazing combination. Rock solid. Very few failures over this time. I didn't upgrade or even touch the ISY for a few years. Everything just keeps working. Even using the original serial PLM as best I can remember although I do have a spare that looks like I bought around 2015. Got back into the system 3-4 months ago and discovered something about 'polyglot / polisy' stuff? Took me a while to understand what they're doing (UDI). I love it!

I can't say enough good about UDI. I purchased a Z-wave board this week for my ancient 994i and plugged it in. Also bought a Polisy box. Everything just works. That's not an easy accomplishment. Hat's off to that crew. I do wish the Insteon management would support UDI, but it all works for now and I'm hoping Z-wave will fill in any gaps that appear if Insteon device development stagnates.

Edited October 23, 2021 by MacMini
clarification

[Mustang65]

It just happened again for the 4th time. Last night I went out the back door and the motion sensor did not trigger the outdoor lights. That happens every once in a while, no big thing. At 11:31PM I noticed that the Living room lights were still on, the random 45 minute "OFF" never happened. The front door outside light never came on. Panic... PLM? Needless to say there was no quality sleep last night..

Verified...  Another "DEAD" PLM. 

I used my last spare PLM last time and SmartHome was out of stock then, so I could not reorder. Numerous times since still no stock. I still have about $700 worth of Insteon devices that have not been installed yet, still in the boxes. It will really suck if they are not planning on producing the PLM any longer. If they decide to stop production I hope that they at least share the information to Universal-Devices to carry on. Something like X10 did. Ahhh, still have a FULL box of X10 devices in the attic probably will have a box of Insteon devices next to it.  

Earlier this summer I purchased a Z-Wave outlet to start experimenting with and was thinking that I should start using Z-Wave devices and stop purchasing Insteon devices. Well, I guess the time is here. Wife is NOT happy about having to manually trigger some things around here. I had better make a quick order of some basic Z-Wave devices. For the time being, I am going to have to hook up my old Insteon Hub (2245-222) that has been collecting dust on a shelf.

Quick question. Is there any communications link between the ISY and the Insteon Hub (2245-222) that could be used temporally? Wishful thinking! Granted there would be a delay, but it would still work.

I guess I will also look at the PLM repair posts to see what parts I need to purchase, so I can possibly get some of these old PLM's back in operation again. Still going to move to Z-Wave and other devices. This Insteon is getting to be to stressful.

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Mustang65

[Phil G]

I wonder if anyone has kicked around the idea of crowd funding a bulk PLM rebuild. Sounds like there must be hundreds of dead candidates. Someone in this forum came up with a BOM for a rebuild using better capacitors and was successful, I think.

[Mustang65]

15 minutes ago, MacMini said:

I wonder if anyone has kicked around the idea of crowd funding a bulk PLM rebuild. Sounds like there must be hundreds of dead candidates. Someone in this forum came up with a BOM for a rebuild using better capacitors and was successful, I think.

There is a post with a parts list. I just need to look at it again.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Mustang65

[DAlter01]

Just now, Mustang65 said:

there is a post with a parts list. Just need to look at it again.

Just last week Smarthome received a new shipment of the 2413S PLM.  They sold out quick with people probably picking up "back-up" units.  If you have a little bit of patience I suspect Smarthome will have more of these in stock in the coming months.  Last I knew, the official position of Smartlabs is the 2413S PLM is not discontinued but is only out of stock and affected by the worldwide chip shortage.  

I am suprised to hear of your continued problems with multiple unit failures on your 2413S.  I know they are the most frequent point of failure with an Insteon system as reported on this forum, but in 9 years and a couple systems I've only had one PLM failure and that one was my fault.  In my experience, they have a pretty good lifespan.

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I am suprised to hear of your continued problems with multiple unit failures on your 2413S.  I know they are the most frequent point of failure with an Insteon system as reported on this forum, but in 9 years and a couple systems I've only had one PLM failure and that one was my fault.  In my experience, they have a pretty good lifespan.

I'm surprised by people (not just @Mustang65) that seem to have repeated failures... I've started to wonder if dirty power and/or voltage fluctuations contribute...  I have a backup unit but I'm still on my first as well.

Another forum member bought caps in bulk and sells cap kits on ebay... https://www.ebay.com/itm/174552309995?var=473764800366  I bought two sets to add to my spares kit.  He's a 5-star ebay seller.

21 minutes ago, MacMini said:

I wonder if anyone has kicked around the idea of crowd funding a bulk PLM rebuild. Sounds like there must be hundreds of dead candidates. Someone in this forum came up with a BOM for a rebuild using better capacitors and was successful, I think.

I kicked around the idea of starting a repair service... send PLM, I solder in new caps and send it back and make something like $40/50...  The only problem I have is I have no way to replace someone's PLM if I damage it beyond repair accidentally,  nor do I have the the expertise needed if the problem goes beyond just soldering in some new caps.  I learned to solder when I was a teen, so I have that talent but I wouldn't know how to diagnose further problems if the "repaired" PLM just would work.  So I decided to pass, but it would be awesome if someone would fire up a repair service.

[DAlter01]

1 minute ago, MrBill said:

I kicked around the idea of starting a repair service... send PLM, I solder in new caps and send it back and make something like $40/50...  The only problem I have is I have no way to replace someone's PLM if I damage it beyond repair accidentally,  nor do I have the the expertise needed if the problem goes beyond just soldering in some new caps.  I learned to solder when I was a teen, so I have that talent but I wouldn't know how to diagnose further problems if the "repaired" PLM just would work.  So I decided to pass, but it would be awesome if someone would fire up a repair service.

I suspect @Brian Hand a few others have the skill to make any PLM repair.  It is WAY out of my league.  IF the PLM doesn't come back in stock within 6 months, I bet the repair service could be $100 and still get a fair amount of business.  

[Mustang65]

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I suspect @Brian Hand a few others have the skill to make any PLM repair.  It is WAY out of my league.  IF the PLM doesn't come back in stock within 6 months, I bet the repair service could be $100 and still get a fair amount of business.  

Or just slowly move over to another vendor, ZWave, Wi-Fi, Sonof....,

The liability issues related to a repaired PLM going south and causing other issues (fire....) would be my concern.

[DAlter01]

1 minute ago, Mustang65 said:

Or just slowly move over to another vendor, ZWave, Wi-Fi, Sonof....,

The liability issues related to a repaired PLM going south and causing other issues (fire....) would be my concern.

Fair point on the liabilty.  One would need to set up an LLC and purchase liability insurance if they wanted to have economic safety.  The PLM repair price just went up to $200/unit.  Even still, for those with the need, it would be a bargain compared to the massive investment of time and money into an otherwise operating system.  Shoot, comared to the cost of even a single Lutron/Crestron/C4 device, $200 is a steal for getting a system back up and running.

[Mustang65]

24 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

.......... I am suprised to hear of your continued problems with multiple unit failures on your 2413S.  I know they are the most frequent point of failure with an Insteon system as reported on this forum, but in 9 years and a couple systems I've only had one PLM failure and that one was my fault.  In my experience, they have a pretty good lifespan.

My PLM works fine plugged into my IOT/Home Network UPS, unlike some others that have issues having the PLM plugged into a UPS. So power surges probably are non existent, although I may wire in my Arduino 120VAC voltage level monitor into the UPS and monitor it since it is unemployed at this time. The last 2 PLM's have been using the UPS.

[DAlter01]

19 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I've started to wonder if dirty power and/or voltage fluctuations contribute...

Must be the case.  If I had a PLM go bad, I'd invest in some power conditioning equipment to avoid having that become repetitive.  At present, never having one go bad on its own, I haven't seen the need to make sure my power is clean.

[DAlter01]

5 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

My PLM works fine plugged into my IOT/Home Network UPS, unlike some others that have issues having the PLM plugged into a UPS. So power surges probably are non existent, although I may wire in my Arduino 120VAC voltage level monitor into the UPS and monitor it since it is unemployed at this time. The last 2 PLM's have been using the UPS.

Hmm, I'm far for knowledgable on the subject but I'd sure put that voltage level monitor to work.  Losing several PLMs seems to be pointing to there being an outside issue that is causing the PLM failures.

Edited October 23, 2021 by DAlter01

[larryllix]

40 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

My PLM works fine plugged into my IOT/Home Network UPS, unlike some others that have issues having the PLM plugged into a UPS. So power surges probably are non existent, although I may wire in my Arduino 120VAC voltage level monitor into the UPS and monitor it since it is unemployed at this time. The last 2 PLM's have been using the UPS.

Voltage levels are not the only factor in dirty power. Poorly designed UPSes can put out bad waveforms with sharp edges on the waveform shape that can wear out a filtering circuit and cause early failure also.

You would need to detect waveform harmonics up to about the 9th (60 x 90 = 540Hz) and have CPU analysis of the harmonics to detect this. The filter capacitors certainly detect it and work very hard to smooth this out inside devices.

[DAlter01]

10 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Voltage levels are not the only factor in dirty power. Poorly designed UPSes can put out bad waveforms with sharp edges on the waveform shape that can wear out a filtering circuit and cause early failure also.

You would need to detect waveform harmonics up to about the 9th (60 x 90 = 540Hz) and have CPU analysis of the harmonics to detect this. The filter capacitors certainly detect it and work very hard to smooth this out inside devices.

So, it sounds like the UPS could potentially be causing the early failure on @Mustang65PLM?  In my houses I've been hooked up direct without a UPS and have had no problems whatsover.  In my prior house, a prior owner had installed a whole house surge supressor many years before.  It may, or may not, have been functional but I figured it didn't hurt to leave it there.  In my new house, there is no protection whatsover and I've not had any issues at all.  And, both houses have had about 150 devices each.  I've had to factory reset a couple devices over 9 years when they stopped working but I don't think I've ever had a device I had to replace.  That is roughly 300 devices with about 1/2 of those going back 9 years.  

Edited October 23, 2021 by DAlter01

[MrBill]

6 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Voltage levels are not the only factor in dirty power. Poorly designed UPSes can put out bad waveforms with sharp edges on the waveform shape that can wear out a filtering circuit and cause early failure also.

You would need to detect waveform harmonics up to about the 9th (60 x 90 = 540Hz) and have CPU analysis of the harmonics to detect this. The filter capacitors certainly detect it and work very hard to smooth this out inside devices.

that confirms what I wondered when I read @Mustang65's post above yours... "I wonder if the UPS creates some kind of distortion/harmonics that prematurely ends the PLM's life."  but I don't have the technical expertise to make such a statement.

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

In my prior house, a prior owner had installed a whole house surge supressor many years before.

Whole house surge suppression is much different that power conditioning.  Whole house surge suppression gives the surge a place to go... power conditioning (i.e. UPS) is actually reshaping the wave forms and making them consistent.

[DAlter01]

12 minutes ago, MrBill said:

that confirms what I wondered when I read @Mustang65's post above yours... "I wonder if the UPS creates some kind of distortion/harmonics that prematurely ends the PLM's life."  but I don't have the technical expertise to make such a statement.

Was thinking the same thing.  

 

26 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Voltage levels are not the only factor in dirty power. Poorly designed UPSes can put out bad waveforms with sharp edges on the waveform shape that can wear out a filtering circuit and cause early failure also.

You would need to detect waveform harmonics up to about the 9th (60 x 90 = 540Hz) and have CPU analysis of the harmonics to detect this. The filter capacitors certainly detect it and work very hard to smooth this out inside devices.

That being the case, wouldn't solar inverters also have the potential to cause dirty power as they are creating their own waveform?  And, other non-typical powerline signals/noise?   I know that on my prior house I had a bunch of panel mounted micro inverters and they were causing a ton of line noise which was affecting my Insteon powerline communications.  We got that cleaned up with some ferrite rings on the mains coming back from the solar panels.  

[Mustang65]

We live in Central Florida and this house is no stranger to close lightning hits. The last major hit was almost a year ago that took out about $2000 worth of electronics (TV', microwave.....). The bolt of lightning hit about 50' from the house. I then installed a Leviton Type 1 surge protection device (51020-WM) next to the electric service panel. Many close hits since then, usually power transformers, but no problems. The last 2 PLM's have been since I installed the Leviton unit, the previous 2 were prior to the install and not on the UPS so we are 50/50 on that theory. Duke energy just upgraded all the equipment between their substation and our location over the last 6 months. A much needed improvement. The number of momentary power outages has been greatly reduced, although still a pretty good amount.

 

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

We live in Central Florida and this house is no stranger to close lightning hits. The last major hit was almost a year ago that took out about $2000 worth of electronics (TV', microwave.....). The bolt of lightning hit about 50' from the house. I then installed a Leviton Type 1 surge protection device (51020-WM) next to the electric service panel. Many close hits since then, usually power transformers, but no problems. The last 2 PLM's have been since I installed the Leviton unit, the previous 2 were prior to the install and not on the UPS so we are 50/50 on that theory. Duke energy just upgraded all the equipment between their substation and our location over the last 6 months. A much needed improvement. The number of momentary power outages has been greatly reduced, although still a pretty good amount.

 

But four PLM failures that is a bunch.  I suspect some of those four failures would not have occured if installed at my house or Mr Bill's house.  So assuming that is true, it is something related to your incoming power or within your house (if my theory is true).  I'm sure those lightening strikes are at least partially responsible for surge/signals that are hard on the PLMs.  Do you have solar and have had it for the duration?  If so, might it be causing dirty power?  It caused a ton of line noise at my prior house so you might want to put it on the radar as a possible susupect.. 

[DAlter01]

9 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

The number of momentary power outages has been greatly reduced, although still a pretty good amount.

I've lived in So California and Arizona.  We don't get the power outages you get.  We had maybe 3-5 in California which were widespread outages not related to nearby equipment failure) so I don't think I was at risk for that equipment failure causing a problem at my house.  And, in Arizona, we really don't get power outages at all, knock on wood.  If your power is dropping off a bunch and it is very localized, it is entirely possible that your PLM is getting abused by whatever nearby utility equipment is dropping off/on during those momentary outages.  

[Mustang65]

The only solar is in my work area and it is not tied into the house's electric system. It keeps my batteries fully charged in case I need to run an extension cord from my inverter (not hooked up) to the Refrigerator

[DAlter01]

5 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

it is entirely possible that your PLM is getting abused by whatever nearby utility equipment is dropping off/on during those momentary outages.

But, I guess you already knew that.  Disregard.

[Mustang65]

When I look at data from my Brultech Energy Management system the highest voltage recorded was I believe 128Volts.

[DAlter01]

Just now, Mustang65 said:

When I look at data from my Brultech Energy Management system the highest voltage recorded was I believe 128Volts.

Does it average over a period of time to smooth out the reading?  In a completly different context, I've seen monitoring systems that smoothed out readings to make them more user friendly so the extreme readings were hidden.  If, and it is a big if, the system smooths the data, that 128 could have be 150, 180, 200 momentarily.

[Teken]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Does it average over a period of time to smooth out the reading?  In a completly different context, I've seen monitoring systems that smoothed out readings to make them more user friendly so the extreme readings were hidden.  If, and it is a big if, the system smooths the data, that 128 could have be 150, 180, 200 momentarily.

Previous versions of firmware displayed average over a period of time. The latest version of firmware now incorporates *Peak* power capture due to my feature request and many others such as run time capture.

Peak capture should not be confused with having the ability to detect surge transients - not the same. Dedicated hardware must be in place to detect and capture the same in nS if one is to be assured of what is happening on the line.