Insteon being discontinued?

[LFMc]

On 7/5/2021 at 10:45 AM, MrBill said:

I don't think the current ownership understands what they have and how to market it.

I rarely ever seen them (Insteon products) in any "smart home" articles. It is disgusting the lack of research any of the "pundits" do for their articles. I guess Insteon is also not doing anything to ingratiate (or at least educate) the all knowing media. I.E. no free trips, comps, products, paid articles, advertising, etc.  What qualifies as media now days is just copy and paste editors (i.e. lazy) where the lack of depth of their analysis is easily exceeded by the depth of their ignorance. 

Unfortunately ISY is almost treated the same way. IMHO. Two great products that I am more than glad to be associated with and using. WE, the users, need to leave comments on these "articles" where we can to promote both of these brands showing the lack of research by the article editors. 

[upstatemike]

Also concerned about the PLM being unavailable with no indication it will be replenished or replaced any time soon. No installation of any significant size can be managed with manual button press programming and what about existing installations that experience a PLM failure? Seems like even the most loyal existing customers are going to start running away from Insteon if there is no path to recover from a failure on their large Insteon installation.

 

[Teken]

This thread like many others are still going on?!? The sad reality is the company was run by a incompetent fool. Years later the baton was passed over to another!

The so called PLM Pro was listed in 2019-10-29 in the FCC database!

No COVID-19 chip shortages . . .

Today is July 12, 2021 so do the math on a napkin as to how long that has been. This whole problem is made worse by the shear fact this company refuses to provide any feedback to the customers at large as to current events, future goals, and time lines.

Insteon could have been the iPhone but now they consistently pissed their market share away by releasing products into the wild and letting them just die. The only reason this company has ever iterated there core products like switches is because the poor reliability began to eat away at their profits and impact sales and branding!

Yet this company will continue to focus on another turd of a Hub controller?!? Software that is half baked for the same all the while ignoring the rest of the world for hardware?!?

You have to be ten kinds of stupid to ignore billions of eager customers willing to part hard earned money to buy your wares!

I can absolutely understand how and why Michel at UDI will not invest any time and resources for possible new Insteon tech without solid documentation and technical support.

People should just enjoy what they have now and buy a few spares when hardware is on sale (code for available)! and sit down planning for a migration toward something else.

At this juncture for me all of the other protocols are all degrees of sh^t. If and when Z-Wave hits mass 700 series hardware and or ZigBee HA is adopted by more companies there might be a glimmer.

As of this writing my primary focus is staging for a major shift in topology that’s been used for decades in enterprise / industrial. Going this route coupled with (some core) protocol will offer more agnostic infrastructure and less reliance on a brand / model of hardware.

We are pushing more than 15 ~ 18 months and people are still hoping to see new hardware. If Smartlabs didn’t have a proven history of releasing the same. I would have started laughing and telling everyone to run!

I’m going to say December 2021 nothing comes out no matter what it is. If so everyone better start working on a exit strategy for the long term!

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

This thread like many others are still going on?!? The sad reality is the company was run by a incompetent fool. Years later the baton was passed over to another! No argument there. New ownership but same incompetent people running the wrong areas.

The so called PLM Pro was listed in 2019-10-29 in the FCC database!

Yes, it hit the FCC in 2019. Covid hit 3 months later causing uncertainty for many companies. This uncertainty compounded by many other factors puts us to today where 18 months later, many companies are issues warning about 2022 and what they may and most likely won't be able to do. An FCC listing doesn't mean something is going to be released imminently. 

No COVID-19 chip shortages . . . 

Today is July 12, 2021 so do the math on a napkin as to how long that has been. I guess Samsung, Every car mfg....EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, Sony, Nintendo, Apple, etc. all warning about how chip shortages will effect them well into 2022. We didn't get our GV80 for almost a year after ordering it due to delays.  I received my warranty light strip replacement from lifx that was submitted last year in September in mid June. The chip shortage in the result from a multitude of different factors that led to where we are now. Its not a single company's doing. 

 

This whole problem is made worse by the shear fact this company refuses to provide any feedback to the customers at large as to current events, future goals, and time lines. There are lots of companies that do not provide feedback and they do quite well. Not saying that they shouldn't or it wouldn't be nice- just that they are under no obligation to do so. The people will speak with their wallets. The rest is on them.

 

Insteon could have been the iPhone but now they consistently pissed their market share away by releasing products into the wild and letting them just die. The only reason this company has ever iterated there core products like switches is because the poor reliability began to eat away at their profits and impact sales and branding!

You can't have it both ways. Can't complain about them releasing stuff to let die and not improving but then talk about how they improved but knock them for it. Of course they improved their products due to negative views. What company that wants to stay in business wouldn't? You're complaining to complain at this point. 

Yet this company will continue to focus on another turd of a Hub controller?!? Software that is half baked for the same all the while ignoring the rest of the world for hardware?!?

You have to be ten kinds of stupid to ignore billions of eager customers willing to part hard earned money to buy your wares!

I can absolutely understand how and why Michel at UDI will not invest any time and resources for possible new Insteon tech without solid documentation and technical support.

People should just enjoy what they have now and buy a few spares when hardware is on sale (code for available)! and sit down planning for a migration toward something else.

At this juncture for me all of the other protocols are all degrees of sh^t. If and when Z-Wave hits mass 700 series hardware and or ZigBee HA is adopted by more companies there might be a glimmer.

Zwave 700 series was released in April of 2019. Its almost 2022. Where's your complaints about them being stupid and everything else? Insteon makes a filing in Oct of 2019 and you jump on them for lack of devices but zwave gets a pass even though many companies have stuff showing for release last March? Why aren't you complaining about how incompetent those companies are and how long it's taking them? If your going to complain about insteon you need to rant about them! But i guess covid excuses are ok for them since they're not insteon.

As of this writing my primary focus is staging for a major shift in topology that’s been used for decades in enterprise / industrial. Going this route coupled with (some core) protocol will offer more agnostic infrastructure and less reliance on a brand / model of hardware.

Only you care about this solution on this forum. Most do not want a smart panel for numerous reasons. Smart panels have their downsides just like any other smart solution.  It's no panacea like you try to make it out to be. Its all about what fits a person's lifestyle and budget. 

We are pushing more than 15 ~ 18 months and people are still hoping to see new hardware. If Smartlabs didn’t have a proven history of releasing the same. I would have started laughing and telling everyone to run!

See my previous response on zwave. I'll be waiting for your rant about those as well

I’m going to say December 2021 nothing comes out no matter what it is. If so everyone better start working on a exit strategy for the long term!

Should they do the same for zwave if the market isn't flooded with 700 series devices by then? Or what about ZigBee ha devices since that's been around for a few years as well?

 

[MrBill]

{popping popcorn..... preparing to settle in and watch the debates unfold....}   ???

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, MrBill said:

{popping popcorn..... preparing to settle in and watch the debates unfold....}   ???

Its always fun with @Teken

[asbril]

26 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Its always fun with @Teken

and with you @lilyoyo1 as well  

[MrBill]

29 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Its always fun with @Teken

That was the point... It's always entertaining to watch the @Teken / @lilyoyo1 debates...

[Teken]

 

Let’s focus on the main points of this thread.

Is Insteon being discontinued?!?

At a high level the company or brand hasn’t folded yet. Thus a person can’t say in a blanket statement it has. Yet a reasonable person watching from the side lines can infer all the products removed from sale, discontinued, or no stock status does not instill confidence in the brand.

A rolling list are these in no order of relevance: Sychro Link, Energy Monitor, iMeter Solo, All LED bulbs, Timer Link, Morning Star Lock, HDS, 2413S PLM, Home Kit Hub, IR Linc, Color change kits etc.

I’m pretty sure that list will grow in due time!

Z-Wave: As I’ve stated countless times this protocol is not better than Insteon with respect to lighting. Depending upon brand and model the market is littered with sh^t products that are ugly and perform even worse! Yet this protocol has continued to iterate in security, range, efficiency, and adoption from 3rd party makers.

Insteon: This protocol hasn’t seen one change since 2ics came out to improve upon the same! Zero encryption security, zero RF / power increase for better range, or to separate the RF / Power line from one another. Zero ability to update firmware and zero two way feedback on so called security devices which the technology has existed since the 90’s!

The debate whether or not a single vendor model can and would impact a person has been discussed for ages. But, in this case it’s not about look & feel of a product. It’s literally a single person who has complete control of the sales, development, and support!

No matter how shitty Z-Wave / ZigBee is on their own merits a person can literally choose at least one vendor that makes a core product like a switch / outlet should their existing vendor fold. Whether X brand makes Y sensor or widget obviously varies with how stout that maker is in terms of business health.

As it pertains to iteration of a product there isn’t a single person in this forum who isn’t aware of the 2413S PLM failing like clock work! This box literally went through no less than seven revisions and each freaking time stupid used the cheapest components known to man!

That’s not learning from your mistakes that’s literally throwing sh^t on the wall and seeing if it will stick! I mean any imbecile could have changed a capacitor with a higher value.

The endless repair thread proved what the primary failure mode is! Even with such information in the public realm it took no less than four other releases where stupid finally decided to copy the same! Yet stupid continued to use the cheapest components which surely only buys time!

The poke in the eye for all of us is stupid reneged on selling the Insteon chips to UDI! Everyone knows a UDI PLM would have been designed and used at least decent components that balanced cost, value, and long term reliability!

Is it because UDI is so freaking smart?!? I mean the team / company are truly top shelf. But, it’s plain grasp of common sense which is the rarest element in the multi verse which Smartlabs fails to have, use, or grasp!

Smart Panel: I’ve been blazing a trail in almost every facet of security, home automation, and energy management. It’s never been a surprise to me that I am the 0.1 % using and doing something completely different from others!

I’m OK with that because I’ll be enjoying that old / new tech all the while having a robust and extremely reliable infrastructure.

I prefer to lead and if others follow - great! If not it doesn’t impact me in the least as I don’t care what others are doing unless it has value to me and my systems. Anyone who has taken the time to read the endless Projects Thread in my signature knows I’m in it for the long run.

That I am extremely patient and capitalize on things and technology when it makes sense financially or it offers so much value price doesn’t matter.

Bottom Line: The discussion is about Smartlabs / Insteon no one else. In 20 years this company has been consistent in offering zero feedback to their customers. Anyone who did in the forums way back in the day have long gone and don’t exist in the company.

When people keep going on about chip shortages this literally means Insteon is at the back of the bus! People keep chirping on that car makers are short on chips because that TV is being consumed more?!?

Please stop spreading the horsesh^t!

There isn’t a single processor from a TV, Game Box, that is used in a vehicle - none! Now if people are saying a freaking SMD component like a resistor, capacitor, relay, etc are in short supply - sure!

[MrBill]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

At a high level the company or brand hasn’t folded yet. Thus a person can’t say in a blanket statement it has. Yet a reasonable person watching from the side lines can infer all the products removed from sale, discontinued, or no stock status does not instill confidence in the brand.

I've been saying this for a year now at least....

One of my favorite products the Hidden Door sensor has been dropped.  I use these not only for doors but for manufacturing hidden buttons, I use 4 in places that have nothing to do with doors. 

It seems they want to be like every other manufacturer out there and just have a switch.  I guess the plug in modules are gone because smart bulbs take away the demand for those.

Some of the unique accessories however is one of the factors that attracted me to the brand, but all those are being done away with. 

Even worse is that they've apparently outsourced there support and/or customer service dept.  AND (we need a really BIG AND) those contractors are apparently allowed to tell customers whatever they want to say regardless of whether it's true or the current state of the brand. which prompts me to have to say things like this:

 

On 7/4/2021 at 8:58 AM, MrBill said:

Oh I forgot, "discontinued" and "definitely discontinued" are two different things ?

I guess they should add a footnote to the above email: PS: Discontinued doesn't mean definitely discontinued it just means discontinued.  

They tell one customer the product is discontinuous, then another customer has to come along and say "no no, I know more about this than that contractors contracted warm body that answered your email, the product is really just on hiatus because of the "chip" shortage. 

How they heck is the consumer supposed to be able to decipher the code??  They won't stay around long is the end result.   X10 had a 30+ year run and kept coming back from dead because there was no other choices.  In 2021 Insteon can't rely on that, there are plenty of other choices today.

I can also type a few paragraphs on the state of the 2413s... but I'll just make it brief and say that they should deal with the issue of no stock before it causes more people to leave the brand as their devices fail.

 

.....time to make more popcorn...

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

Let’s focus on the main points of this thread.

Is Insteon being discontinued?!?

At a high level the company or brand hasn’t folded yet. Thus a person can’t say in a blanket statement it has. Yet a reasonable person watching from the side lines can infer all the products removed from sale, discontinued, or no stock status does not instill confidence in the brand. So, I should assume logitech is shutting down since they've discontinued their whole line of remotes? How about Ubiquiti? They limit how many of their wifi 6 LR access points and their stuff is constantly on Back order! Or how about any number of car companies out there. When I drive past cadillac and I see nothing but used cars on their lots, should I assume GM is shutting down? We are not in normal times no matter how much we want to pretend we are. I still cant buy a ps5 easily or upgrade to a note 21 this year since Sony is still short handed and Samsung chose not to make the note to save on chips. I guess those moves mean they're going under as well. Heres a thought. We are in extraordinary times which means extraordinary steps are being taken by manufacturers to stay in business. 

A rolling list are these in no order of relevance: Sychro Link, Energy Monitor, iMeter Solo, All LED bulbs, Timer Link, Morning Star Lock, HDS, 2413S PLM, Home Kit Hub, IR Linc, Color change kits etc. So let me get this right. You've ranted in the past about how terrible those devices were and why they shouldnt be carrying them! Yet, here you are now complaining about them getting rid of those same terrible devices. Are you ranting and complaining just for the sake of it? You can't have it both ways. Either they should have them or they shouldnt! Which one is it? 

Have you seen insteon's sales data to know what they were spending and making on their stuff? Every company discontinues non selling or slow selling devices. The fact that certain things are at a premium at this time means further reductions (placed on hold) to conserve chips for devices that are selling.

Forget about past disco'd items. Lets talk about now. Imagine you are the CEO of insteon. You can only get 20% of chips that you normally can get. Factories still require you to produce x amount of a product in order to run that particular product line. Are you going to take your limited chips and make products that accounts for less than 10% of your sales (in addition to taking a year to sell the whole run), or are you going to cut back and focus on your highest selling devices (realizing that you cant even keep those in stock with your current chip access)? Those are the choices that many companies are making right now. Even once Genesis released the GV80, they didnt have many of the prestige model. Why? to save chips for all their other runs. The amount of chips that particular model took would've meant other cars wouldnt have been made. They realized more people would spend on the 48-50k than those willing to spend 76+. So, they focused on making more of the higher selling models than the lower. While it sucks for those wanting that model, from a business perspective, it was the right thing to do. I'm sure it made some angry and drove them to buy from other manufactures. It's better to sell 5 $50k vehicles than 1 $76k vehicle. This is where insteon and other companies are at. 


I’m pretty sure that list will grow in due time!

Z-Wave: As I’ve stated countless times this protocol is not better than Insteon with respect to lighting. Depending upon brand and model the market is littered with sh^t products that are ugly and perform even worse! Yet this protocol has continued to iterate in security, range, efficiency, and adoption from 3rd party makers. They have and yet its still a &^*% show. 

Insteon: This protocol hasn’t seen one change since 2ics came out to improve upon the same! Zero encryption security, zero RF / power increase for better range, or to separate the RF / Power line from one another. Zero ability to update firmware and zero two way feedback on so called security devices which the technology has existed since the 90’s!

Lets be real. Besides making someone feel good; what has zwave done with them? Most companies have not issued any updates to their devices. The few that have was due to bugs where the products simply wouldnt work with peoples controller.

Lets talk about encryption. How many insteon devices has been hacked in the 20 years its been out? X10 for that matter. How many people ACTUALLY use zwave s2 security? With the ISY that number is zero and with other controllers....very few. in fact, most who start out using it end up turning it off. Encryption is good with security devices such as door locks but sucks for automation where speed matters just as much as reliability.  Ditto for 2 way feedback. Last I checked, insteon was not an alarm system. Besides that, how many other zwave mfg have sensors that offer 2 way feedback?

The debate whether or not a single vendor model can and would impact a person has been discussed for ages. But, in this case it’s not about look & feel of a product. It’s literally a single person who has complete control of the sales, development, and support!

No matter how shitty Z-Wave / ZigBee is on their own merits a person can literally choose at least one vendor that makes a core product like a switch / outlet should their existing vendor fold. Whether X brand makes Y sensor or widget obviously varies with how stout that maker is in terms of business health. This is true. Yet none fully utilize all that zwave offers. Besides a few with a few gimmicky features, all are pretty much standard devices. Even if you go off of what you say. What type of screwed up ^&*^ show is that. Let me buy 20 different iterations of the same device to see what each one supports! That makes zero sense at all. 

As it pertains to iteration of a product there isn’t a single person in this forum who isn’t aware of the 2413S PLM failing like clock work! This box literally went through no less than seven revisions and each freaking time stupid used the cheapest components known to man!

That’s not learning from your mistakes that’s literally throwing sh^t on the wall and seeing if it will stick! I mean any imbecile could have changed a capacitor with a higher value.

The endless repair thread proved what the primary failure mode is! Even with such information in the public realm it took no less than four other releases where stupid finally decided to copy the same! Yet stupid continued to use the cheapest components which surely only buys time! The problem with complaints of older devices is that many times it looks like an issue with newer devices. Even today, the second someone complains, the first thing someone says is plm failure. They replace the plm and the same issue starts happening again. The last year or two, youve seen the plm complaints drop off compared to years past so I guess something stuck. I guess they are screwed if they do and screwed if they dont

The poke in the eye for all of us is stupid reneged on selling the Insteon chips to UDI! Everyone knows a UDI PLM would have been designed and used at least decent components that balanced cost, value, and long term reliability! 

Is it because UDI is so freaking smart?!? I mean the team / company are truly top shelf. But, it’s plain grasp of common sense which is the rarest element in the multi verse which Smartlabs fails to have, use, or grasp! I wasnt part of negotions with insteon and UDI so I cant comment. What I do know is that today- it would not have mattered in regards to the chip shortage. 

Smart Panel: I’ve been blazing a trail in almost every facet of security, home automation, and energy management. It’s never been a surprise to me that I am the 0.1 % using and doing something completely different from others!

I’m OK with that because I’ll be enjoying that old / new tech all the while having a robust and extremely reliable infrastructure.  I have a robust and reliable infrastructure as well. To each their own. That still doesnt mean your way or mine is the right way to go. Smart panels as I said before, truly depends on how someone wants to run their house. I've never understood the need to monitor energy. My house was built for efficiency as well as everything I use in it. If something is on, I turn it off. If im using it, then I know its using energy. Im not going to cut my thermostat back just because I get an alert that im using energy. I know I am. Thats the most ridiculous that ive seen people jump on. But to each their own. Its not my money so if that matters to some one then great for them. 

I prefer to lead and if others follow - great! If not it doesn’t impact me in the least as I don’t care what others are doing unless it has value to me and my systems. Anyone who has taken the time to read the endless Projects Thread in my signature knows I’m in it for the long run.

That I am extremely patient and capitalize on things and technology when it makes sense financially or it offers so much value price doesn’t matter.

Bottom Line: The discussion is about Smartlabs / Insteon no one else. In 20 years this company has been consistent in offering zero feedback to their customers. Anyone who did in the forums way back in the day have long gone and don’t exist in the company.

When people keep going on about chip shortages this literally means Insteon is at the back of the bus! People keep chirping on that car makers are short on chips because that TV is being consumed more?!?

Please stop spreading the horsesh^t!

There isn’t a single processor from a TV, Game Box, that is used in a vehicle - none! Now if people are saying a freaking SMD component like a resistor, capacitor, relay, etc are in short supply - sure! So I guess all the layoffs and shutdowns from car manufacturers is malarky? Come on now. Get real. This whole post reads of some fox news rant. Full of bluster, BS, and hot air. Short on true substance. 

Im not saying insteon doesnt have issues with how they run things. Everyone can clearly see that. Im just calling out your reasoning behind stuff. Some points are valid but overall itll be just ranting and raving until you do the same about all the other stuff that is equal from other things

 

[Teken]

19 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I've been saying this for a year now at least....

One of my favorite products the Hidden Door sensor has been dropped.  I use these not only for doors but for manufacturing hidden buttons, I use 4 in places that have nothing to do with doors. 

It seems they want to be like every other manufacturer out there and just have a switch.  I guess the plug in modules are gone because smart bulbs take away the demand for those.

Some of the unique accessories however is one of the factors that attracted me to the brand, but all those are being done away with. 

Even worse is that they've apparently outsourced there support and/or customer service dept.  AND (we need a really BIG AND) those contractors are apparently allowed to tell customers whatever they want to say regardless of whether it's true or the current state of the brand. which prompts me to have to say things like this:

 

They tell one customer the product is discontinuous, then another customer has to come along and say "no no, I know more about this than that contractors contracted warm body that answered your email, the product is really just on hiatus because of the "chip" shortage. 

How they heck is the consumer supposed to be able to decipher the code??  They won't stay around long is the end result.   X10 had a 30+ year run and kept coming back from dead because there was no other choices.  In 2021 Insteon can't rely on that, there are plenty of other choices today.

I can also type a few paragraphs on the state of the 2413s... but I'll just make it brief and say that they should deal with the issue of no stock before it causes more people to leave the brand as their devices fail.

 

.....time to make more popcorn...

If people are going to make popcorn do use real buttaaaaaaaaa!

 

[dbuss]

19 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There isn’t a single processor from a TV, Game Box, that is used in a vehicle - none! Now if people are saying a freaking SMD component like a resistor, capacitor, relay, etc are in short supply - sure! So I guess all the layoffs and shutdowns from car manufacturers is malarky? Come on now. Get real. This whole post reads of some fox news rant. Full of bluster, BS, and hot air. Short on true substance. 

Im not saying insteon doesnt have issues with how they run things. Everyone can clearly see that. Im just calling out your reasoning behind stuff. Some points are valid but overall itll be just ranting and raving until you do the same about all the other stuff that is equal from other things

Todays cars have between 25 and 50 CPUs and 50-150 chips This information is readily available on numerous automotive and electronic industries web sites.

[lilyoyo1]

12 minutes ago, dbuss said:

Todays cars have between 25 and 50 CPUs and 50-150 chips This information is readily available on numerous automotive and electronic industries web sites.

I know they have alot which is why it's crazy for someone to make the claim that was made. I guess in Canada they dont have modern cars ?

[Teken]

5 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

If all else was equal you could use Logitech or who ever as a crutch to stand on. Since the discussion isn't about a very successful company like LogiTech the argument is quite moot. 

Its a straw man's reply when there's no counter argument . . .

Now, for those who know me and have been around long enough to read my rants, raves, and other. Everyone knows at the core that I am a Insteon supporter. That doesn't mean I will blindly follow and eat all the sh^t like the Apple Fan Boyze will every freaking day no matter how terrible the product and company is!

So, my main driver is to express my concerns and offer how they could do better . . .

Guess what nobody at the helm is doing anything about problems or looking toward the future to expand Insteon market share - none! 

Security: When someone uses the reply *When was the last time* it makes me take pause - it really does. So like in the 80's, 90's, 2000 people said this was impossible. That was movie magic. This is Sci-Fi fantasy. Guess what almost every thing that has ever been depicted with respect to security hacking / breaching has come to pass and eclipsed! 

Lots of ignorant and so called smart people have said to their determent the following: Email, power grid, CCTV, think about any network device ever created! Could not, would not, will not, be hacked or compromised?!? Yet there are thousands & billions of people all around the world that were impacted by viruses and the same held for ransom! Network devices from routers, switches, telecommunications, etc have been taken over by trojans and viruses.

If everyone could leave their doors wide open like they live in the backwoods - great!

But, the bulk of society doesn't live in the backwoods, keys in the ignition, welcome mat saying sincerely *Welcome*

Why???

Because the world is filled with dirty low life human beings that want to cause mayhem and profit off the general populace. 

Do you know why Insteon hasn't attempted to integrate any form of encryption??

I can with a high level of experience and the history to support my beliefs . . .

Lazy, incompetent, and zero vision!

No matter how I feel about Z-Wave at least the people behind this protocol have enough spark to make a thought in their brains to say: You know what - How can we make this child like toy protocol be seen as serious. All the while capture even more market share?? Guess what no matter what I feel about integrating security via Z-Wave there are real companies integrating the same!

Every year the world spends billions and billions in security . . . Even if Z-Wave captured only 1% of that market its tens of millions for X & Y vendor! You think Insteon based on their current protocol and model would ever be used and integrated with a name brand alarm system???

No . . .

Again, it matters not how ugly or comical the Z-Wave protocol is to me or billions of others. What matters is this conglomerate of licensee's have continued to iterate with the market needs, and realities of the world as it pertains to security!

The argument of What if, odds of, do you know of, is not a serious reply about security . . . Its like car with locks it comes with it you don't have to ask for it!

Iteration: I should have been more clear on this point - my apologies. As it pertains to iterating all of the above devices when I say came to market just got released and were left to die. Every known good company takes a product and reviews the feedback of good - bad - ugly and iterates and improves on it.

Insteon??

Never . . .

I mean the closest to trying to iterate and do better is that POS HUB that just won't die and go away! Like instead of adding energy monitoring to all wired devices which almost all new devices incorporate now! They (Insteon) could have been first to market or at the very least followed suite! That would have either given them the advantage or not seen as a distractor vs another competing product that had the same!

Firmware: This same walking blind in the dark mentality is another reason this company isn't a serious contender on any level with the current masses. In 2021 almost every device can be upgraded and why is that?? Because it allows the vendor to resolve bugs, patch security holes, increase value by adding features!

I mean if the argument is when was the last time . . .

Opposed to the reality of if there is something wrong with X Insteon device there is zero way to resolve it besides sending it back to be flashed! Not only does that impact the brand but adds costs which didn't have to exist if said device could be upgraded on site / remotely.

Now, if the argument was Smartlabs is too dumb to offer a reliable method to flash said device - I buy that! There is zero down side in offering the same along with better security encryption.

Which does what again??

That's right you can't integrate with any leading lock makers - ever!

Wow . . .

What part of the market has spun up and sells billions of dollars worth of goods and is tied to what protocol???

Insteon?? Z-Wave . . .

None of the above even addresses the ***-dragging to release any more hardware outside of North America! Again, billions of people foaming at the mouth wanting to buy Insteon but constantly blocked by an imbecil with no vision and how to increase profits!

So where does that leave us as a consumer???

        

 

[Teken]

17 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I know they have alot which is why it's crazy for someone to make the claim that was made. I guess in Canada they dont have modern cars ?

OK that was a nice burn ??‍♂️

Regardless, if you're saying vehicles use the same chips in a consumer device like TV, Game Console, name what ever. Give your head a shake because that is patently false and not bolstered  by facts. I'll give people a hint as to why that is and the rest you can figure out.

Environment  . . .

[lilyoyo1]

10 minutes ago, Teken said:

OK that was a nice burn ??‍♂️

Regardless, if you're saying vehicles use the same chips in a consumer device like TV, Game Console, name what ever. Give your head a shake because that is patently false and not bolstered  by facts. I'll give people a hint as to why that is and the rest you can figure out.

Environment  . . .

I'm saying there are a variety of chips out there and the shortage has caused issues for a wide range products period. Its no single chip or company. 

[Teken]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm saying there are a variety of chips out there and the shortage has caused issues for a wide range products period. Its no single chip or company. 

Sure, but that doesn't even come close to addressing any of the above points I've made. This company won't iterate a product to do better for long term reliability all the while offering more features??? I mean quite a few of us chimed in and I will give the company a yellow star for coming some what close to using OUR ideas.

I literally stated like many others why it was important to have the ability to turn on / turn off the RF within the hardware. Welps, the Plugin On-Off module incorporates that basic idea and guess what it didn't cost anyone more money to make it happen!

So one would think a small spark or hope was seen and what all of us consider to be a small yet important advancement would continue in next releases - not iterations - next releases of firmware.

Nope . . .

I mean if we take a look at the MSII which absolutely was a game changer for all of us in terms of size, looks, and features. Yet another awesome concept let into the wild and left to die. Even worse the only company in the world (UDI) had to waste time and resources to back engineer or use trial by error to figure what some of these settings do which doesn't even address not all of them work!

Again, hey that thing that's called firmware upgrading would probably be a nice feature right about now - huh?? But it doesn't matter because stupid isn't updating the firmware in the MSII - Ever!

Here's another nugget which I am many others have chimed in about forever . . .

How about stupid release an analog I/O device that isn't based on 1980 tech?? Does anyone know of a Z-Wave device that offers the same or better yet 1-wire temperature reading??

If this company released any kind of environmental, irrigation, lock, analog I/O revenue would be out the roof every freaking quarter! I mean the lazy attempt by using an external sensor for that half baked TSTAT which oh guess what???

Hasn't been updated forever . . . .

I guess people could say it was iterated because it was as the first generation was a turd.

 

 

 

[Teken]

Oh and let me add the cherry on top of insult to injury to the Insteon masses. So back in the day Smarthome was trying their very best to gouge all of us for custom KPL keys. Later a small group of ingenious and crafty owners decided to purchase KPL blanks and laser etcher.

Doing so would allow us to make our very own and (Cheap) custom KPL buttons!

Now, some would say *Listen man there is zero sales of this item / sku.*

Welps, prior to lift off they probably sold 1 a month of these blank KPL buttons. Once news came out that the community at large was able to make their own sales shot out the roof for the very same! 

So what did all of us soon find out from Smarthome??? Stupid once again, decided to cut off his nose to spite his face and stopped selling the very same!

If that isn't a poke in the eye for the Insteon support I don't know what is . . . ?  

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

Oh and let me add the cherry on top of insult to injury to the Insteon masses. So back in the day Smarthome was trying their very best to gouge all of us for custom KPL keys. Later a small group of ingenious and crafty owners decided to purchase KPL blanks and laser etcher.

Doing so would allow us to make our very own and (Cheap) custom KPL buttons!

Now, some would say *Listen man there is zero sales of this item / sku.*

Welps, prior to lift off they probably sold 1 a month of these blank KPL buttons. Once news came out that the community at large was able to make their own sales shot out the roof for the very same! 

So what did all of us soon find out from Smarthome??? Stupid once again, decided to cut off his nose to spite his face and stopped selling the very same!

If that isn't a poke in the eye for the Insteon support I don't know what is . . . ?  

You mean like apple does? 

[MrBill]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

If people are going to make popcorn do use real buttaaaaaaaaa!

always.... nothing else in the house...

[upstatemike]

This thread has convinced me to give up on both Insteon and Z-Wave. I don't think Matter is going to be any better. Pinning my hopes on LoRa.

[Teken]

17 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You mean like apple does? 

Your not going to get an argument from me from a Apple perspective. This company like Samsh^t are pretty much in the same boat of offering subpar products, services, to playing dirty pool. Regardless, trying to compare Smartlabs to one of the most successful companies ever in history is like comparing a bicycle to a motorcycle!

I get it both have wheels, transport a person from A - B

Yet, it goes without saying one is for a child vs a grown up . . .

I would give all the tea in China to be in the same position and suit I wore 20 years ago. That being directing, managing, and controlling billion dollar corporations. I know myself and team could have made Insteon the market leader today, tomorrow, and into the future.

Instead we have hillbillies that purchased a new shiny toy thinking this would be a great hobby to play in. This company isn't serious about offering the best hardware, leading the market in cutting edge technology, or even integrating with anyone else.

[Teken]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

This thread has convinced me to give up on both Insteon and Z-Wave. I don't think Matter is going to be any better. Pinning my hopes on LoRa.

I believe people should just enjoy what they have and migrate when and if they can to whatever. Speaking for myself I have enough core products in storage that will allow me to replace my network three times over. As stated early on I'll consider Z-Wave Plus using the 700 series chip set / ZigBee HA if and when the market leaders in those camps release the core items I need and use.

If none of them do I'll still have another easy 10~ 20 years of Insteon technology humming along. Lots of people have been selling used Insteon hardware on what ever platform. Anytime there's a huge lot going for pennies on the dollar I just scoop them up for parts! ? 

Insteon chips, crystals, are all desoldered just waiting to be used when needed. 

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

Sure, but that doesn't even come close to addressing any of the above points I've made. This company won't iterate a product to do better for long term reliability all the while offering more features??? I mean quite a few of us chimed in and I will give the company a yellow star for coming some what close to using OUR ideas.

This is b.s right here. You yourself has admitted that quality have greatly improved. Now you're saying they havent. Which one is it? Looking at complaints over the years in regards to failures and devices not working out the box, there's a drastic reduction in both. That came from somewhere. Not saying things don't break but now when you here about issues, it's generally older devices and not one in the last few years like previously. 

I literally stated like many others why it was important to have the ability to turn on / turn off the RF within the hardware. Welps, the Plugin On-Off module incorporates that basic idea and guess what it didn't cost anyone more money to make it happen!

So one would think a small spark or hope was seen and what all of us consider to be a small yet important advancement would continue in next releases - not iterations - next releases of firmware.

Nope . . .

I mean if we take a look at the MSII which absolutely was a game changer for all of us in terms of size, looks, and features. Yet another awesome concept let into the wild and left to die. Even worse the only company in the world (UDI) had to waste time and resources to back engineer or use trial by error to figure what some of these settings do which doesn't even address not all of them work! Only company in the world? You do realize other systems support insteon right?

Again, hey that thing that's called firmware upgrading would probably be a nice feature right about now - huh?? But it doesn't matter because stupid isn't updating the firmware in the MSII - Ever! 

Here's another nugget which I am many others have chimed in about forever . . .

How about stupid release an analog I/O device that isn't based on 1980 tech?? Does anyone know of a Z-Wave device that offers the same or better yet 1-wire temperature reading??

If this company released any kind of environmental, irrigation, lock, analog I/O revenue would be out the roof every freaking quarter! I mean the lazy attempt by using an external sensor for that half baked TSTAT which oh guess what??? I'm with you on the t-stat. I remember when they first showed it, I laughed. With that said, why does insteon need any of that (except for an Io device)? The market has spoken and it would be a waste of time and money. 6 years ago there were 3 times as many zwave thermostats as there are today. Why is that? The answer is....No one wants them. Consumers want Nest and ecobee. For those who can't afford those, they are happy with a Honeywell t5 wifi thermostat (or any of the other 50 million types out there). There are companies out there that do a much better job with those things than insteon ever could. Zwave for that matter... Except for locks since those are generally made by those who specialize in making a lock.

How many zwave irrigation systems do you see? Once again, there's a reason why most mfg aren't producing them. The market has spoken. Ditto for bulbs. Insteon doesn't need to be everything. They simply need to make products that every day people use. You, me, and most people on here (and other advanced controllers) are not everyday users. Zwave and insteon was not really designed for us. Its why blogs talk about Smartthings, Ring, hue, sonos etc. 

Hasn't been updated forever . . . .

I guess people could say it was iterated because it was as the first generation was a turd.