Insteon being discontinued?

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I admit to being impressed with Clear Connect Type A which is second only to LoRa for range, penetration, and reliability. The jury is still out on Clear Connect Type X which competes with Wi-Fi, Zigbee, Wireless Microphones, Wireless Telephones, Microwave ovens, etc. for bandwidth. After reading the whitepaper I too am still confused on what drove the decision to change frequencies beyond the advantage of using smaller antennas. It seems like the features of Clear Connect X could have been implemented at 434 MHz preserving the advantages of that frequency range. Statements like "Offering the ability to control more sophisticated control types in different applications..." really doesn't explain anything. Why did they need to go to 2.4GHz to achieve that ability? 

You do realize that Ra2's range is less than that of Rae correct?

[upstatemike]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You do realize that Ra2's range is less than that of Rae correct?

Based on the specs it looks like RA2 goes 30ft and RA3 goes 25 ft.

What are the system limitations?

• A RadioRA 3 system can have a maximum of one (1) Processor and (4) Repeaters for range extension. 
• The RadioRA 3 processor works with new RadioRA 3 Sunnata Devices (Clear Connect-Type X) AND existing RadioRA 2/RadioRA 2 Select (Clear Connect Type-A) Devices
• Each processor controls up to 200 devices (including the processor and 4 repeaters) with the following limitations: 
  • RadioRA 3 Sunnata Devices (Clear Connect-Type X):  A maximum of 100 Sunnata dimmers, keypads and switches can be added to a RadioRA3 system.  The Sunnata companion dimmers/switches DO NOT count toward the 100 device limitation.
  • RadioRA 2 / RA2 Select Devices (Clear Connect-Type A):  A maximum of 95 Lutron RF devices can be added to a RadioRA 3 system.  CLICK HERE  for a complete list of compatible RadioRA 2 / RA2 Select devices.

What are the RF Range Specifications of the system?

• RadioRA 3 Sunnata Devices (Clear Connect-Type X) communicate using a wireless mesh topology.  In order to assure proper communication, the following rules must be adhered to when designing the system.
  • ALL Sunnata RF (Clear Connect-Type X) devices should be located within 75ft of the processor
  • At least 2 Sunnata RF devices (not including companion dimmers/switches) must be located within 25ft of the processor
  • Each Sunnata RF device (not including companion dimmers/switches) must be located within 25ft of two other Sunnata RF Devices

 

• RadioRA 2 / RA2 Select Devices:  All Lutron Clear Connect-Type A devices must be within 30ft of the RadioRA 3 processor OR Repeater to assure proper communication.
  • Repeaters must be within 60ft of the Processor OR another repeater

[MrBill]

28 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Some people are impressed with Lutron systems and it would be nice to know why.

I've been in the biz... both working for an Electrical Contractor and as the technical advisor for my wife's prior high end lighting store before we sold it.   Lutron is the high end high quality product that always works.  They have A++ technical support (at least for dealers, I've never called as a consumer), and they stand behind their products.  Back in the late 90's they had a dimmer (I think it was part of the Skylark product line) that was manufactured with bad triacs and they paid the electricians basic service call or labor rate for 1 hour to replace dimmers that failed.

Lutron also is a complete solution...  high many of the product lines have all designer end color choices available along with matching screw-less wallplates.  

[lilyoyo1]

29 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Based on the specs it looks like RA2 goes 30ft and RA3 goes 25 ft.

What are the system limitations?

• A RadioRA 3 system can have a maximum of one (1) Processor and (4) Repeaters for range extension. 
• The RadioRA 3 processor works with new RadioRA 3 Sunnata Devices (Clear Connect-Type X) AND existing RadioRA 2/RadioRA 2 Select (Clear Connect Type-A) Devices
• Each processor controls up to 200 devices (including the processor and 4 repeaters) with the following limitations: 
  • RadioRA 3 Sunnata Devices (Clear Connect-Type X):  A maximum of 100 Sunnata dimmers, keypads and switches can be added to a RadioRA3 system.  The Sunnata companion dimmers/switches DO NOT count toward the 100 device limitation.
  • RadioRA 2 / RA2 Select Devices (Clear Connect-Type A):  A maximum of 95 Lutron RF devices can be added to a RadioRA 3 system.  CLICK HERE  for a complete list of compatible RadioRA 2 / RA2 Select devices.

What are the RF Range Specifications of the system?

• RadioRA 3 Sunnata Devices (Clear Connect-Type X) communicate using a wireless mesh topology.  In order to assure proper communication, the following rules must be adhered to when designing the system.
  • ALL Sunnata RF (Clear Connect-Type X) devices should be located within 75ft of the processor
  • At least 2 Sunnata RF devices (not including companion dimmers/switches) must be located within 25ft of the processor
  • Each Sunnata RF device (not including companion dimmers/switches) must be located within 25ft of two other Sunnata RF Devices

 

• RadioRA 2 / RA2 Select Devices:  All Lutron Clear Connect-Type A devices must be within 30ft of the RadioRA 3 processor OR Repeater to assure proper communication.
  • Repeaters must be within 60ft of the Processor OR another repeater

You have to read everything. It's 2 devices within 25' of controller 75 feet for all devices to processor. 

Much better than all devices being within 30 feet for ra2 (not including repeaters).

It's all in how a person wants to look at it. For me, I can take ra3 out naturally or purchase extra repeaters to talk to devices that are further away

 

 

[upstatemike]

Even if RA3 adds repeaters each broadcast will only go 25 feet to another device in the mesh or to the gateway (or potentially a future repeater). The 75 ft spec is misleading because it is there to control the maximum number of hops rather than anything to do with broadcast range. If every device is within 75 ft of the gateway then the maximum hops through devices within 25 ft of each other should be no more than 3. 

For me the bigger factor is not range but penetration. At 434 MHz RA2 will punch through brick or plaster walls or reach into a grounded metal electrical box. 2.4 GHz does not do as well against those obstacles.

At the end of the day I will just trust that RA3 will work as advertised unless actual problems arise. I'm just saying I don't understand the driver to move to 2.4GHz and I don't think the Lutron marketing does a very good job of explaining the actual technical advantage of it.

[lilyoyo1]

9 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Even if RA3 adds repeaters each broadcast will only go 25 feet to another device in the mesh or to the gateway (or potentially a future repeater). The 75 ft spec is misleading because it is there to control the maximum number of hops rather than anything to do with broadcast range. If every device is within 75 ft of the gateway then the maximum hops through devices within 25 ft of each other should be no more than 3. 

For me the bigger factor is not range but penetration. At 434 MHz RA2 will punch through brick or plaster walls or reach into a grounded metal electrical box. 2.4 GHz does not do as well against those obstacles.

At the end of the day I will just trust that RA3 will work as advertised unless actual problems arise. I'm just saying I don't understand the driver to move to 2.4GHz and I don't think the Lutron marketing does a very good job of explaining the actual technical advantage of it.

You are correct in the over number (5'). The point I'm getting at is go behind the numbers. If you have a large room between the processor and another room, you'll be adding an extra expense of a repeater with type A vs type X. 

Lutron's numbers are worse case scenario Unlike zwave which claims hundreds of feet but struggles between walls. If they say 25' it's probably more but they guarantee it'll work in that range. This is different than zwave which we see often. A device will have 300' range but won't work in a room on the other side of a wall. 

[upstatemike]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You are correct in the over number (5'). The point I'm getting at is go behind the numbers. If you have a large room between the processor and another room, you'll be adding an extra expense of a repeater with type A vs type X. 

Lutron's numbers are worse case scenario Unlike zwave which claims hundreds of feet but struggles between walls. If they say 25' it's probably more but they guarantee it'll work in that range. This is different than zwave which we see often. A device will have 300' range but won't work in a room on the other side of a wall. 

I agree. You can pretty much ignore the useless distance claims with Z-Wave.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

I've been in the biz... both working for an Electrical Contractor and as the technical advisor for my wife's prior high end lighting store before we sold it.   Lutron is the high end high quality product that always works.  They have A++ technical support (at least for dealers, I've never called as a consumer), and they stand behind their products.  Back in the late 90's they had a dimmer (I think it was part of the Skylark product line) that was manufactured with bad triacs and they paid the electricians basic service call or labor rate for 1 hour to replace dimmers that failed.

Lutron also is a complete solution...  high many of the product lines have all designer end color choices available along with matching screw-less wallplates.  

Thanks for the anecdotal information claims.

That's very nice to hear  and sounds impressive but still just more...." It's wonderful claims",  just as  the whitepaper was full of.  I still have not seen anything about the protocol or how the system works or why it should be reliable.

Do have any links to actual technical information disclosing the oh-so secret protocol or technology?

I think most experienced users are not going to  be convinced with the "I have a system that works perfectly" anymore,  which every other system vendor also claims.  Ask @mwesterabout Insteon for that one.

Right now, I am interested this technology but so far it's been a secret technology. It also must be available in Canada. We get ripped off badly by US shipping and more than doubling costs doesn't help.

Thanks.

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Thanks for the anecdotal information claims.

That's very nice to hear  and sounds impressive but still just more...." It's wonderful claims",  just as  the whitepaper was full of.  I still have not seen anything about the protocol or how the system works or why it should be reliable.

Do have any links to actual technical information disclosing the oh-so secret protocol or technology?

I think most experienced users are not going to  be convinced with the "I have a system that works perfectly" anymore,  which every other system vendor also claims.  Ask @mwesterabout Insteon for that one.

Right now, I am interested this technology but so far it's been a secret technology. It also must be available in Canada. We get ripped off badly by US shipping and more than doubling costs doesn't help.

Thanks.

It's not anecdotal claims. Their products are used in many office buildings around the country. It's only anecdotal to you because you have zero experience with it. 

Yes, they sell in Canada. 

[simplextech]

This whole thread is like a Reddit posting.  Lots of experts who've read things but have zero actual experience with installation or deployment of what they're talking about drowning out valid information from experienced installers.

 

[upstatemike]

34 minutes ago, simplextech said:

This whole thread is like a Reddit posting.  Lots of experts who've read things but have zero actual experience with installation or deployment of what they're talking about drowning out valid information from experienced installers.

 

Maybe so but it is entertaining and very popular. 50 pages already and we're just getting started!

[MrBill]

2 hours ago, larryllix said:

I still have not seen anything about the protocol or how the system works or why it should be reliable.

It's likely proprietary, it can be relied on because of Lutron's well established reputation.  The thing to worry about it is the API, which they disclose.

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

It's likely proprietary, it can be relied on because of Lutron's well established reputation.  The thing to worry about it is the API, which they disclose.

With the 2.4GHz frequency, they may have problems while microwave ovens operate. I have only had a problem with some WiFi once in a decade, that I thought was related but that is still few and far between occurrences. I don't browse while I cook.

OK....get a cup of water into your MW and let us know if you can detect any problems.

That is the problem with no knowing of it is mesh, simultaneous syncronised mesh, radially unmeshed, retry backup up.. etc... etc... Would be nice to understand some of the basics before doing any commitment.

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

With the 2.4GHz frequency, they may have problems while microwave ovens operate. I have only had a problem with some WiFi once in a decade, that I thought was related but that is still few and far between occurrences. I don't browse while I cook.

OK....get a cup of water into your MW and let us know if you can detect any problems.

That is the problem with no knowing of it is mesh, simultaneous syncronised mesh, radially unmeshed, retry backup up.. etc... etc... Would be nice to understand some of the basics before doing any commitment.

I guess someone should tell all these people who manufacture microwaves with wifi built in that its an issue

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

With the 2.4GHz frequency, they may have problems while microwave ovens operate. I have only had a problem with some WiFi once in a decade, that I thought was related but that is still few and far between occurrences. I don't browse while I cook.

OK....get a cup of water into your MW and let us know if you can detect any problems.

That is the problem with no knowing of it is mesh, simultaneous syncronised mesh, radially unmeshed, retry backup up.. etc... etc... Would be nice to understand some of the basics before doing any commitment.

Sounds like it is time for a new WiFi access point or a new microwave.  One of those components isn't working correctly if you are having an interferance problem, is my guess.  One can just as easily have a microwave that is having a problem and throwing out a bunch of noise on the 2.4 GHz frequency as with the 434 MHz.  So, no real difference there.  2.4 GHz has plenty of range and penetrates walls very good.  Maybe not as good as 434 MHz but if 2.4 GHz gives 100% reliable coverage to the stated specs, how much better does one need to be than 100% coverage to the stated specs? 

If it works realiably as intended that is all that is needed.  There is no reason to fault it for not having something that isn't any better in performance to the stated specs.  My guess is using the 434 MHz caused some other tradeoffs and in sum, they decided that the 2.4 GHz was the right solution.  I don't have much experience with Lutron but have been nothing but impressed, who am I to question their decisions.  Insteon, well, I've got some opinions on how they could do better, but I digress. 

[larryllix]

20 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Sounds like it is time for a new WiFi access point or a new microwave.  One of those components isn't working correctly if you are having an interferance problem, is my guess.  One can just as easily have a microwave that is having a problem and throwing out a bunch of noise on the 2.4 GHz frequency as with the 434 MHz.  So, no real difference there.  2.4 GHz has plenty of range and penetrates walls very good.  Maybe not as good as 434 MHz but if 2.4 GHz gives 100% reliable coverage to the stated specs, how much better does one need to be than 100% coverage to the stated specs? 

If it works realiably as intended that is all that is needed.  There is no reason to fault it for not having something that isn't any better in performance to the stated specs.  My guess is using the 434 MHz caused some other tradeoffs and in sum, they decided that the 2.4 GHz was the right solution.  I don't have much experience with Lutron but have been nothing but impressed, who am I to question their decisions.  Insteon, well, I've got some opinions on how they could do better, but I digress. 

Microwave ovens produce broadband 2.4 Ghz noise around the 600-1200 watts of energy range. My guess is most people have never noticed it, and have never tested the problem.  MW ovens should not leak much RF energy but they do. They can leak enough to light up fluorescent tube placed close to the door seals. Make sure you wipe your seal surfaces down and never let food remain on the metal edges.

 

It previously was reported a lot with wireless phones, and recently with WiFi behaviour. However, with http retries and modern protocols it is much less noticeable. If noise never didn't interfered with signals these secure protocols would not be needed.

I guess this protocol will remain secret in other houses. I like to understand things in order to ward off some problems before committing to such a large investment. No system is 100% for everybody and most experienced people already know that.

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Microwave ovens produce broadband 2.4 Ghz noise around the 600-1200 watts of energy range. My guess is most people have never noticed it, and have never tested the problem.  MW ovens should not leak much RF energy but they do. They can leak enough to light up fluorescent tube placed close to the door seals. Make sure you wipe your seal surfaces down and never let food remain on the metal edges.

 

It previously was reported a lot with wireless phones, and recently with WiFi behaviour. However, with http retries and modern protocols it is much less noticeable. If noise never didn't interfered with signals these secure protocols would not be needed.

I guess this protocol will remain secret in other houses. I like to understand things in order to ward off some problems before committing to such a large investment. No system is 100% for everybody and most experienced people already know that.

What's your understanding of zwave?

[MrBill]

15 hours ago, larryllix said:

With the 2.4GHz frequency, they may have problems while microwave ovens operate.

 

15 hours ago, larryllix said:

I don't browse while I cook.

 

13 hours ago, larryllix said:

My guess is most people have never noticed it, and have never tested the problem.

one of the two microwave ovens in our kitchen is about 5 feet from the only wifi AP in the house, the other microwave is only a few more feet away. 

On my my current laptop I use the 5ghz network but on my prior laptop it only had 2.4ghz available so I always used it.

My desk/office is downstairs and has no windows, I tend to use the kitchen table for my laptop instead. 

The microwave gets used many times throughout the day.

I've never had a problem.

Now our old deep fryer did kill Insteon powerline signals when it was plugged in.

On Lutron... I believe that RA3 will thoroughly vetted, when released.  I'll also believe that if a problem appears after release that they will fix it, and it won't cost the end user a dime.  That's what Lutron does.

[GreyFox]

I am a little late in becoming active in/on this topic. Between family and friends I have 3 - 4 houses with Insteon and ISY controls for which I am responsible. I have come down this path integrating Insteon, ISY, Mobotix security cameras, and Elk home automation/security products. My acquisitions have been piece meal, so I really haven't kept track of the total dollar investments for each implementation. All in all, I am sure I have spent and/or coordinated the expenditure of several thousands of dollars for these components. Anyway, I have just now become aware of the across the board unavailability of Insteon products. Having had a career in technology for the past 30 years I am well aware of the challenges of both planned and unplanned obsolescence of technological hardware and software.

So, I am hoping some of you are able to give me some direction in researching alternatives to the Insteon controls. Fortunately, the Universal Devices people make the integration of these components much easier. Has anyone published a comparison of individual controls for Insteon, Lutron, Z-Wave, etc? Are there any published articles on the pros and cons of using an ISY with Lutron or Z-Wave? Are there any summaries that have been published covering the integration of ISY with Lutron, Z-Wave, etc?

I plan to read all 50 pages of this thread/topic, but that will take some time. All help will be greatly appreciated.

[lilyoyo1]

9 minutes ago, GreyFox said:

I am a little late in becoming active in/on this topic. Between family and friends I have 3 - 4 houses with Insteon and ISY controls for which I am responsible. I have come down this path integrating Insteon, ISY, Mobotix security cameras, and Elk home automation/security products. My acquisitions have been piece meal, so I really haven't kept track of the total dollar investments for each implementation. All in all, I am sure I have spent and/or coordinated the expenditure of several thousands of dollars for these components. Anyway, I have just now become aware of the across the board unavailability of Insteon products. Having had a career in technology for the past 30 years I am well aware of the challenges of both planned and unplanned obsolescence of technological hardware and software.

So, I am hoping some of you are able to give me some direction in researching alternatives to the Insteon controls. Fortunately, the Universal Devices people make the integration of these components much easier. Has anyone published a comparison of individual controls for Insteon, Lutron, Z-Wave, etc? Are there any published articles on the pros and cons of using an ISY with Lutron or Z-Wave? Are there any summaries that have been published covering the integration of ISY with Lutron, Z-Wave, etc?

I plan to read all 50 pages of this thread/topic, but that will take some time. All help will be greatly appreciated.

Pick any point and start reading. You can even read backwards. It just rehashes the same stuff

[upstatemike]

I disagree. I think it is a gripping story with many surprising plot twists and unexpected reveals. It should be read from beginning to end, though the end has not been written yet. I would not be surprised if this thread is eventually made into a full length feature film. 

[asbril]

53 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I would not be surprised if this thread is eventually made into a full length feature film. 

A love story for some, a tragedy for others, a comedy for a few?

[Tim McDermott]

I apologize if this has been asked and answered, but can anyone speak to support for USB support for either an Insteon adapter such as the 2448A7 or an USB PLM. I'm thinking of a USB port on Polisy, but also any other implementation. Thanks to Insteon's dual-band retransmission, an inexpensive 2448A7 would seem to be all that would  be necessary to replace a failed serial PLM.

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, Tim McDermott said:

I apologize if this has been asked and answered, but can anyone speak to support for USB support for either an Insteon adapter such as the 2448A7 or an USB PLM. I'm thinking of a USB port on Polisy, but also any other implementation. Thanks to Insteon's dual-band retransmission, an inexpensive 2448A7 would seem to be all that would  be necessary to replace a failed serial PLM.

It works on polisy

[Tim McDermott]

R

That's great news. Thank you.