Reading Network Details in Viewer

[breischaft]

I think I'm getting it, then something comes up to challenge.

I have a bunch of aeotech sirens to form the skeleton of z-wave network.  My thought is to get multiple sirens to be neighbors to the isy itself to promote multiple potential routes.

I don't know if it's possible to get network information (neighbors) from the isy itself. 

but looking at this one - the office siren - it does not show isy as a neighbor, but shows it as the last working route.  I would have assumed these were mutually exclusive. 

Am I reading this incorrectly?  is there another strategy I should be pursuing for robustness of mesh?

 

 

Thanks, Kurt

 

[breischaft]

any thoughts on this please? 

I have updated neighbors multiple times with the same result:

-last working route was direct

-isy is not a neighbor

how can these both be correct? 

thanks

[breischaft]

@Michel Kohanim can you opine on this?  how can last working route be direct without isy being a neighbor?  

My assumption is that to have a strong mesh I want several of the repeaters/sirens to be neighbors with the isy.  But when they are in the same room and deny being neighbors it makes me think I am not reading the information correctly. 

Thanks 

 

[breischaft]

I've now gone through all 9 sirens as well as 2 switches and 9 locks.  none are neighbors to ISY.  two sensors are neighbors.

All devices work and respond to ISY commands and programs.  

bug or operator error? 

thoughts?

Thanks, Kurt 

[breischaft]

@simplextech

Do you have an opinion on this question?  Thank you for help you've provided me indirectly in other posts here. 

 

[simplextech]

On 12/13/2020 at 5:59 PM, breischaft said:

aeotech sirens to form the skeleton of z-wave network

I don't have any of these and have never used them.  I'm guessing they are powered?  Are they the type that are either battery operated or powered?  If so how were they included into the ISY?  On battery or on power?  Were batteries installed when they were included?

[Screw Loose Dan]

My Siren 6 is just a few feet away from my ISY.  I don't have any answers for you, but this is what my Event Viewer shows, just for reference:

Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Last working route from ISY to Node  20 - ZW 020 Sound Switch
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [01040092147D]                          REQ ZW_GET_LAST_WORKING_ROUTE 
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Direct
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW021_1] [31/05] CC=0x31 cmd=0x05 [012A02F2] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x15
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:45 PM : [ZWAVE    ZW021_1] Process value Sensor type=1 scale=1 prec=1
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [01070080140000F995]                    REQ ZW_GET_ROUTING_INFO 
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZWAVE-RX ZW021_1] [31/05] CC=0x31 cmd=0x05 [050127] ACK,AUTO,EXPLORE From=0x15
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZWAVE    ZW021_1] Process value Sensor type=5 scale=0 prec=0
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [01070080140100FA97]                    REQ ZW_GET_ROUTING_INFO 
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZWAVE-TX        ] [01070080140001FB96]                    REQ ZW_GET_ROUTING_INFO 
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ] Node  20 - ZW 020 Sound Switch has the following neighbors
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   1 - [This ISY]
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   3 - ZW 003 Repeater
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   4 - ZW TVRoom Repeater
Sun 01/03/2021 07:11:46 PM : [ZW-SHOW         ]    - Repeater - Node   5 - ZW Electrical Panel

Also, I had issues with firmware 5.3.0 (constantly marked as writing) and opened a ticket.  Was told to upgrade to 5.3.1, no problem since.

@simplextechThe Aeotec Siren is always powered* and from posts around here was historically always touted as an excellent repeater.  There's plenty of posts in the past on this forum that claimed the siren made a better repeater than the Aeotec Repeater did.  I have both, never bothered testing myself.

* The unit is designed to always be powered, although it does have a backup battery designed to last a couple hours if power is cut (for alarm purposes). The battery isn't removable (well, not easily anyway).

[breischaft]

@simplextech - @Screw Loose Dan beat me to answer and his screen shot (thank you!) shows what I've seen before as well:  

   - Repeater - Node   1 - [This ISY]

yet I don't see anything that has ISY as neighbor.   

Yet all my stuff works (I think). 

looking again at my screenshot, the last working route WAS direct to ISY.

I'm trying to use these details to move the Siren 6's around to get a better mesh.  There's lots of overlap with sirens, locks, etc but none that I can see with the ISY itself.  This is what I'd think was the most important.  

 

[simplextech]

6 minutes ago, breischaft said:

I'm trying to use these details to move the Siren 6's around to get a better mesh.  There's lots of overlap with sirens, locks, etc but none that I can see with the ISY itself.  This is what I'd think was the most important.  

The routes will change over time.  So moving something today and looking at the route and then again in a week it may be different.

1. If it works.  Leave it be.  Sleeping dogs remember?

2. If it doesn't work then investigate the why.  Invest in a zniffer if you get crazy about things.

The ISY will not have neighbors.  It is the controller and has the routing information.  It doesn't have neighbors because it is at the top of the hill in the high castle. 

[breischaft]

sleeping dogs thing is tough but I get it.  

I'm trying not to mess too much, but the ANALytical part of me comes back to the two examples in this thread: 

1-Mine that shows ISY is NOT a neighbor of the siren

2-Dan's that shows ISY IS a neighbor of the siren

lots of discussion in these pages of how zwave needs strong mesh and sometimes excess repeaters.  I'm not familiar w zniffer.  can you recommend please?

 

And absolutely:  Thank you for the response and dialog.

Kurt

[simplextech]

30 minutes ago, breischaft said:

lots of discussion in these pages of how zwave needs strong mesh and sometimes excess repeaters.  I'm not familiar w zniffer.  can you recommend please?

Yes Z-Wave does need a strong mesh.  What defines "strong" is the variable and you will get as many answers to this as I have opinions on things

For starters.  Not all devices are created equal.  All powered devices are repeaters.  This is true.  Not all powered devices are GOOD repeaters.  Some are better than others.  Because of this you will see people where they have a hundred dimmers in their walls and are complaining about problems and people automatically jump to "it's a mesh problem".  No... not always.  Sometimes it's as simple as the new device is bad or doesn't like Network Wide Inclusion which is why you have to have it in the same room as the controller to include it or the receive strength of the device is so poor that it has to be very close to another device to work properly.  There's a LOT of different issues that come with Z-Wave and having a 1001 devices from 1001 vendors all adding their own spice to the firmware and design.  I have a love hate relationship with Z-Wave.... is it showing yet?

Why a device would show the ISY as a neighbor would need a definitive answer from UDI.  However in speculation it's because the device does not have a direct route to the ISY but it's neighbor does.  So it's a friend of a friend type thing. 

Device -> ISY = not a neighbor but direct communication

Device -> Device -> ISY = won't you be my neighbor?

How and why the ISY will show some of the Z-Wave mapping and relationships is a mystery to me still.  Especially with the new 5.3 changes and updates.  In order to see a full direct layout you will need to use a separate Z-Wave controller and PC Controller software from SiliconLabs to see the full mesh and translate the routing table from the primary controller. 

Options for this are.  Buy a USB Z-Wave controller stick.  The UZB7 is Z-Wave 700 chip and is $20 from Mouser and then register and download the PC Controller software from SiliconLabs.  It's free.  You will then have to include the UZB stick into the ISY as a secondary controller to see the devices and trace out the information.  This is not an easy journey and there's potential for destruction in doing this.  Tread very carefully and if in doubt.  Don't do it. 

The zniffer can be bought as part of the Z-Wave Development it for I think it's something like $350 currently which is a lot cheaper than the $3500 before SiliconLabs.  The development kit includes a zniffer and software.  Alternatively you can buy a UZB3 from Mouser for again about $20 and FLASH the USB Stick with the Zniffer firmware.  This is different firmware than a controller and once flashed the USB stick can only be used as a Zniffer going forward.  You will then need the Zniffer software which you can again download from SiliconLabs for free.  Using this it will "sniff" the Z-Wave packets from the air and is a non-destructive and fun thing.  Previously this was only possible with a Certified Installer Toolbox from the Z-Wave Alliance which required membership.  Lastly the other option is to buy a cool little box which is also a Sniffer and network mapper and can do lots of mapping and information gathering.  This box is call the Z-Wave ToolBox and you can buy it for $129 from Z-Wave Products

The Z-Wave toolbox is a fun tool to explore the z-wave network with. 

[breischaft]

Toolbox Ordered!

Thank you again

(I'm sure I'll have more ???'s later too!)

 

[simplextech]

31 minutes ago, breischaft said:

(I'm sure I'll have more ???'s later too!)

I guess I should dig mine out of the boxes of a disorganized (construction zone) office.