Remove excess links for Z-wave devices

[DAlter01]

My Z-wave devices report a lot of unnecessary information to the ISY such as humidity, light levels, UV, etc when all I want to know is if the motion sensor has detected motion or hasn't.  I suspect that all of this "excess" information is using up an additional link for each type of excess information supplied.  Since I am over the 992 link limit of the PLM I am trying to figure out how to drop unnecessary links.  Does anyone know if each type of excess information is, in fact, an additional link?  And, if so, if there is a way to eliminate this information from using a link in the PLM (how to eliminate it?)?

[lilyoyo1]

14 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

My Z-wave devices report a lot of unnecessary information to the ISY such as humidity, light levels, UV, etc when all I want to know is if the motion sensor has detected motion or hasn't.  I suspect that all of this "excess" information is using up an additional link for each type of excess information supplied.  Since I am over the 992 link limit of the PLM I am trying to figure out how to drop unnecessary links.  Does anyone know if each type of excess information is, in fact, an additional link?  And, if so, if there is a way to eliminate this information from using a link in the PLM (how to eliminate it?)?

Zwave is not insteon so you are not adding to the PLM link count. That's why it has its own separate board. 

To eliminate the extra nodes, simply right click on them and delete. You'll also want to go to the zwave tabs and choose freeze additional nodes (something along those lines) once done.

Edited June 2, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[DAlter01]

Excellent, thank you liyoyo1.  Makes sense, forgot about Z-wave being a radio only device on a different frequency and on a different board.  The Z-wave actually reduces my links vs using a similar Insteon device.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Excellent, thank you liyoyo1.  Makes sense, forgot about Z-wave being a radio only device on a different frequency and on a different board.  The Z-wave actually reduces my links vs using a similar Insteon device.

Not necessarily. Link count is more complicated than a simple 1 to 1 comparison. Outside of kpls, most insteon devices do not use many links (1 to 2 depending on device)

Since you're close to the PLM limit, it does help to use zwave devices  since it's on a  different board. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[hart2hart]

Have you used the nodeserver ISY inventory or happen to know how many Insteon devices and scenes you have?

[DAlter01]

6 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Have you used the nodeserver ISY inventory or happen to know how many Insteon devices and scenes you have?

I have not done the nodeserver inventory but have done some calcs on my quantities.  I have 284 devices if I count a 6 button keypad as 6 devices and an 8 button as 8 devices.  I assume this means 284 links before a single scene is created.  In this count I have a bunch of 8 button keypads that serve as sonos keypads and the house had a bunch of lutron keypads and I reused those old locations with 6 button keypads.  I probably should have eliminated some of both of the 8 and 6 button locations and paid to have the sheetrock work done rather than install all that switchgear that was essentiall hole fillers.  That decision was made before I realized I would have a link issue. 

Plus, I have a bunch of rooms/hallways that have 3 and 4 way switches and those need scenes to link the dimmers.  As such, I probably have close to 400 links before creating any HA lighting scenes.    

I haven't counted the links created by scene membership for HA lighting scenes but my preferred path was to use scenes for my different lighting levels (day scene, evening scene, guest scene, All-on, etc.)  I'd have over 1,000 links to create these HA lighting scenes if I wasn't limited by the PLM.  So, I think I need to find a way to condense all of that down into scene groups that I can reuse between different HA lighting scenes.  Its going to make the programming MUCH more challenging.  

[hart2hart]

I’ve got 299 Insteon devices and 84 scenes which translates to 665 plm links. Your number just sounds high but obviously I don’t know complexities of what you’ve done.

I seem to recall that orphan links can occur in plm if you make lots of changes. Has anyone suggested doing a restore plm which will clear and add back links in ISY database to the PLM so you can confirm something has not occurred and inflated the actual number.

Also, there is a Virtual Nodesever I’ve started usingits variables as placecholdrrs that might eliminate any hidden keypadlincs you have.

Additionally, I have several scenes with the right lights included snd use adjust scene in programs instead of duplicating scene with different settings. Don’t know if this would help but FWIW.




Good luck.

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Have you used the nodeserver ISY inventory or happen to know how many Insteon devices and scenes you have?

While this nodeserver is great for seeing what your isy has, basic device and scene count is a poor way to figure out link count. For example, an eight button keypad is 9 links but still only 1 device. A 2477d however is 2 links but 1 device.

If your house had 50 eight button kpls, you'd have 450 links while a house with 50 dimmer switches would have 100. That's even before you get to scenes. 

Using the 2 houses described above, 1 scene with 20 kpls will show as 1 scene but the links would then be maxed out while 1 scene with 20 dimmers would still have space

[hart2hart]

While this nodeserver is great for seeing what your isy has, basic device and scene count is a poor way to figure out link count. For example, an eight button keypad is 9 links but still only 1 device. A 2477d however is 2 links but 1 device.
If your house had 50 eight button kpls, you'd have 450 links while a house with 50 dimmer switches would have 100. That's even before you get to scenes. 
Using the 2 houses described above, 1 scene with 20 kpls will show as 1 scene but the links would then be maxed out while 1 scene with 20 dimmers would still have space

Agree but he said he’d factored in keypads as multiple devices so I’m at a close starting point. Again was just a thought.

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

I have not done the nodeserver inventory but have done some calcs on my quantities.  I have 284 devices if I count a 6 button keypad as 6 devices and an 8 button as 8 devices.  I assume this means 284 links before a single scene is created.  In this count I have a bunch of 8 button keypads that serve as sonos keypads and the house had a bunch of lutron keypads and I reused those old locations with 6 button keypads.  I probably should have eliminated some of both of the 8 and 6 button locations and paid to have the sheetrock work done rather than install all that switchgear that was essentiall hole fillers.  That decision was made before I realized I would have a link issue. 

Plus, I have a bunch of rooms/hallways that have 3 and 4 way switches and those need scenes to link the dimmers.  As such, I probably have close to 400 links before creating any HA lighting scenes.    

I haven't counted the links created by scene membership for HA lighting scenes but my preferred path was to use scenes for my different lighting levels (day scene, evening scene, guest scene, All-on, etc.)  I'd have over 1,000 links to create these HA lighting scenes if I wasn't limited by the PLM.  So, I think I need to find a way to condense all of that down into scene groups that I can reuse between different HA lighting scenes.  Its going to make the programming MUCH more challenging.  

1 way to save link space would be to link basic multi-way switches together outside of the Isy. Obviously if your changing brightness levels throughout the day or other programs, you would want to avoid this. 

[DAlter01]

14 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Has anyone suggested doing a restore plm which will clear and add back links in ISY database to the PLM so you can confirm something has not occurred and inflated the actual number.

I'll give that a try.  Its a fairly new install just being programmed now so not likely to help but only takes a few clicks to try so worth the excercise now and periodically along the way.

16 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Additionally, I have several scenes with the right lights included snd use adjust scene in programs instead of duplicating scene with different settings. Don’t know if this would help but FWIW

I intend to do this technique but as I understand (or misunderstand it), that will be a global change to the scene and therefore not ideal when you want some parts of the scene brighter and others more dim. I was thinking I might segment these big scenes into those devices I want to brighten and those I want to dim and end up with a few more scenes but fewer devices in the scenes to allow more finite control.  I don't get fine control of individual devices but this should get me in the area I want to be.

[hart2hart]

If you’re using Polisy, The Vitrtual nodeserver I mentioned lets you add a virtual switch to a scene making it easy to test for scenes being on or off and then based on time of day etc adjust the scene or scene segment.

You’ve got right thought process. Good luck and post back if you think we can assist. I’ve posted and got remarks that i didn’t use but made me approach it from a different perspective.

[DAlter01]

18 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

1 way to save link space would be to link basic multi-way switches together outside of the Isy. Obviously if your changing brightness levels throughout the day or other programs, you would want to avoid this. 

Yeah, I suppose that is an option, hadn't thought of doing that.  It will pick up some links.  I think I lose the ability to have my system backed up and easily replace devices at failure, but it may be a necessary solution.

 

25 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Using the 2 houses described above, 1 scene with 20 kpls will show as 1 scene but the links would then be maxed out while 1 scene with 20 dimmers would still have space

I do have some KP's where I use a button to control a scene.  I assume only that one button on the KP as the controller for the scene is involved and creating one additional link, correct?  I suppose I could use a program, leave the KP button out of the scene as a controller, and have the ISY trigger the scene when it sees a change in state of that button.  For scenes that have multiple KP button's controlling it, I could pick up a number of saved links by having an ISY program look at multiple controller buttons. Though, to have the button lights/status stay in sync, I'd have to have them in the scene as a responder so not sure I'm picking up any saved links with that strategy.

[DAlter01]

4 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

If you’re using Polisy, The Vitrtual nodeserver I mentioned lets you add a virtual switch to a scene making it easy to test for scenes being on or off and then based on time of day etc adjust the scene or scene segment.

You’ve got right thought process. Good luck and post back if you think we can assist. I’ve posted and got remarks that i didn’t use but made me approach it from a different perspective.

Thanks, I not using Polisy, my mind is already stretched about as far as I dare.  But, maybe after I get further along I might venture into that next chapter.

[lilyoyo1]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:35 PM, DAlter01 said:

Yeah, I suppose that is an option, hadn't thought of doing that.  It will pick up some links.  I think I lose the ability to have my system backed up and easily replace devices at failure, but it may be a necessary solution.

You will lose the replace option but depending on situation, that would be minimal work involved as (hopefully), it would be a single device at a time years down the road. 

 

I do have some KP's where I use a button to control a scene.  I assume only that one button on the KP as the controller for the scene is involved and creating one additional link, correct?  I suppose I could use a program, leave the KP button out of the scene as a controller, and have the ISY trigger the scene when it sees a change in state of that button.  For scenes that have multiple KP button's controlling it, I could pick up a number of saved links by having an ISY program look at multiple controller buttons. Though, to have the button lights/status stay in sync, I'd have to have them in the scene as a responder so not sure I'm picking up any saved links with that strategy.

Each controller will be 2 links while a responder Is 1. If you had 4 dimmers in a scene all as controllers that would be 8 links vs 4 if they're all responders. With 100+ devices that adds up to big savings.

You could also re-use your scenes for multiple purposes. In my house, every room has its own All Off scene with all lights/buttons in them as responders. Hitting the All Off/Goodnight button during the day will turn them all off. At night, the button becomes my good night button. Hitting it will trigger certain lights to turn on (or dim depending on state at the time), while turning everything else off (other stuff happens but those are irrelevant to your use). I also use my All Off scenes as part of my Away scene. Instead of trying to create 1 big scene, I simply trigger those other scenes. 

When it comes to my door locks, I have 5 keypads that will show if the door is unlocked. All of them are setup in the Isy as responders. This is 5 links instead of 10. Those are linked outside of the ISY to each other so that when I press the button to lock/unlock (I can only unlock from the Master bed and Bath) the door, they all respond accordingly. 

To keep things in sync (Isy doesn't recognize links made outside of it), my door programs are written to take that into account. If any of the buttons are turned off, the door locks will trigger to be locked and my responder scene will turn off. Turning the button on from the bedroom or bath, will trigger the (front door only) to unlock and turn the responder scene on. There more involved but that's the general gist of things. 

As you can see, by re-using scenes and integrating your scenes with programming, you can save a lot of links over time. They do add up. Since this is a new install, pre-plan your installation. By mapping out your install and programming, it'll be much cleaner and allow you to do much more with what you have without issues. With voice control, smart thermostats and other stuff, I've found the need for kpls to be much lower. Most things that I used to use kpl buttons have been move to other processes so that has saved links as well. Before you start installing, you can think about that as well. Maybe you won't need as many buttons (or keypads) as you think you do

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[DAlter01]

 

20 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

As you can see, by re-using scenes and integrating your scenes with programming, you can save a lot of links over time. They do add up. Since this is a new install, pre-plan your installation. By mapping out your install and programming, it'll be much cleaner and allow you to do much more with what you have without issues. With voice control, smart thermostats and other stuff, I've found the need for kpls to be much lower. Most things that I used to use kpl buttons have been move to other processes so that has saved links as well. Before you start installing, you can think about that as well. Maybe you won't need as many buttons (or keypads) as you think you do

Thank you.  I've been noodling around what you said last night and said again more fully in the above post and think that, yes, there will be a way to make this work.  I can save a lot by moving my 3 and 4 way switches to being outside the ISY, they just don't have to be in there.  And, I'll probably create a master "occupied" scene that will be my baseline lighting scene.  Then, based on time of day or theme, I will manipulate that scene based on percentages globally and then adjust parts/rooms within a program by naming hte devices individually or with a small scene where the global adjustment isn't appropriate.  And, yes, use that same "occupied" scene for my "all on" scene and on my "sleep" scene.  

Your "All-off" by room might also work for my situation, or a modified version of it.  I take it you don't see a signficant lag when you are running a program that affects most of your devices when you have it parsed up into bite sized scenes?  I know when I threw nearly every device in a program as an "all-on", the ISY bogged down.  But, if that can be cut down to 10-12 bite sized scenes, I suspect the lag I experienced will be greatly improved or maybe even barely perceptable.  

The KPL's are a different story.  I know I don't need all of them.  I just didn't want to patch all the holes in the wall and replace the multi-gang boxes from 3 to 2, 4 to 3, etc.  That is a lot of work.  In hindsight, that would have been the right path.  I'm thinking that over again and will end up removing some of them and patching.  Others I'll likely replace with dimmers.  It is going to be a pricey re-engineer.  But, the good news is I'll have a healthy supply of replacement keypads should I experience failure down the road.  Or, you might see a few KPL's on ebay with custom button names....

[lilyoyo1]

39 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

 

Thank you.  I've been noodling around what you said last night and said again more fully in the above post and think that, yes, there will be a way to make this work.  I can save a lot by moving my 3 and 4 way switches to being outside the ISY, they just don't have to be in there.  And, I'll probably create a master "occupied" scene that will be my baseline lighting scene.  Then, based on time of day or theme, I will manipulate that scene based on percentages globally and then adjust parts/rooms within a program by naming hte devices individually or with a small scene where the global adjustment isn't appropriate.  And, yes, use that same "occupied" scene for my "all on" scene and on my "sleep" scene.  

Your "All-off" by room might also work for my situation, or a modified version of it.  I take it you don't see a signficant lag when you are running a program that affects most of your devices when you have it parsed up into bite sized scenes?  I know when I threw nearly every device in a program as an "all-on", the ISY bogged down.  But, if that can be cut down to 10-12 bite sized scenes, I suspect the lag I experienced will be greatly improved or maybe even barely perceptable.  

The KPL's are a different story.  I know I don't need all of them.  I just didn't want to patch all the holes in the wall and replace the multi-gang boxes from 3 to 2, 4 to 3, etc.  That is a lot of work.  In hindsight, that would have been the right path.  I'm thinking that over again and will end up removing some of them and patching.  Others I'll likely replace with dimmers.  It is going to be a pricey re-engineer.  But, the good news is I'll have a healthy supply of replacement keypads should I experience failure down the road.  Or, you might see a few KPL's on ebay with custom button names....

There's minimal delay in starting the scene but a delay in the whole program running since I separate each room with a 1 second wait. This is to ensure all communication has occured prior to moving on to the next room. Typically, I start my program with the most important room and end it with the least important. For example, if i hit my away button in the kitchen on my way to the garage (in the evening), it'll turn on the hall light, unlock the door to the garage, open the garage door, turn off the kitchen, master bedroom, etc. Rooms that we generally do not use such as the dining room and scullery are processed last since the likelihood of them being on are low. 

The same applies to my goodnight. Hitting it in the living room will dim my lamps, turn on the step lights, and turn off the fan and other lights. Then the kitchen, and other rooms with the least used rooms being last. 

The more things that happens in a program the longer it will take. A wait between each one actually helps you more since you don't have to worry about collisions and so forth. Running 20 scenes with a 1 second wait will be more efficient than trying to run a single program with 100 different devices. 

[oper8]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:13 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

Zwave is not insteon so you are not adding to the PLM link count. That's why it has its own separate board. 

To eliminate the extra nodes, simply right click on them and delete. You'll also want to go to the zwave tabs and choose freeze additional nodes (something along those lines) once done.

This is very helpful. I have over 40 of these z-wave nodes, I placed them in a separate "NOT USED" folder so they don't clog my AC interface. So it's perfectly fine and safe to delete them ?