Keypad Link not always sending commands

[Eric]

I have a strange issue that I need help tracing.   I have the 'C' button on a keypad link (dimmer) set to turn a scene on and off as a toggle.   For some reason, when things are off,  a single push will turn everything on,  but if they are on,  the first push seems to do nothing and then the second push will turn things off.   It is very consistent, happening every time.   I've looked at the log and I don't see anything.  In the administrative console I see the same thing on the display for the button as I see happening to all the connected devices.   Is there something that could be mis programmed to cause this ?   I just can't seem to figure out where to look.   Of course it is possible that the keypad link needs a reset or that it's defective and needs to be replaced,  but before I go there I wanted to see if anyone has an idea.

Eric

[MrBill]

20 minutes ago, Eric said:

I have the 'C' button on a keypad link (dimmer) set to turn a scene on and off as a toggle.   For some reason, when things are off,  a single push will turn everything on,  but if they are on,  the first push seems to do nothing and then the second push will turn things off.

So Everything is off:  Press C and the scene turns on.  And the backlight, behind the C button turns on?

The scene is on:   you say it takes 2 presses to turn off the scene.  What is the status of the backlight behind C? 

When the second condition occurs, how did the scene get turned on?  Via another switch or?

when you open the scene in the device tree, would you please take a screencap and show what the members of the sceen look like.   (to do this in Windows, press windowskey-shift-s,  click and hold top left of screencap move to bottom right and release the click.  the screen cap is now on you clipboard.  Click in a forum message window and press Ctrl-v)

[Eric]

OK...so maybe something learned, but not what I expected....

With everything off  (Scene off,  Backlight for Button C off)

Press Button C

Scene comes on.  Backlight for button C remains off.

Press Button C

Scene remains on,  Backlight for button C comes on.

 

Press Button C

Scene goes off,  Backlight for button C goes off.

 

Now back to original conditions.

I'm still wondering if this is a bug in my program somewhere  (even though it is very simple.

Here's the membership of the button:

Membership of the switched outlet.

Thanks for looking at it.  Maybe it's simple and I'm just staring at it too long.

 

[MrBill]

The scene setup looks correct, but the button pressed don't seem to be.  You mentioned "I'm still wondering if this is a bug in my program somewhere  (even though it is very simple."  Do you in fact also have a program involved in this.  If so, you likely don't need it, but please post it.  (right click the program name in the program tree, and pick Copy to clipboard.  In the forum press the <> button on the toolbar and then Ctrl-v in the resulting window.)

[Eric]

I did a double check, and I don't think any of the programs are interacting with this button or device.    The only unusual thing is that I have a scene called Bullet Lights,  which you see.   There is also one called Rope Lights that does the same thing with a different light fixture.  Each of those is controlled by a separate button on the Terrace Keypad Link.   There is also a scene called Bullet and Rope, that controls both fixtures, and is run by a single button on a different keypad link, since I was running out of buttons.  This scene lets me do the two scenes (Bullet Lights and Rope Lights) as a single button push.  The Rope lights scene is working fine on Terrace button B.   It seems so straight forward, yet it's stumping me why that 'C' button is behaving that way.    Do you think it's worth it to pull out the reset switch on the Keypad Link and then press it in for a few seconds to see if a reset of the keypad link makes a difference ?

 

[MrBill]

18 minutes ago, Eric said:

I did a double check, and I don't think any of the programs are interacting with this button or device.    The only unusual thing is that I have a scene called Bullet Lights,  which you see.   There is also one called Rope Lights that does the same thing with a different light fixture.  Each of those is controlled by a separate button on the Terrace Keypad Link.   There is also a scene called Bullet and Rope, that controls both fixtures, and is run by a single button on a different keypad link, since I was running out of buttons.  This scene lets me do the two scenes (Bullet Lights and Rope Lights) as a single button push.  The Rope lights scene is working fine on Terrace button B.   It seems so straight forward, yet it's stumping me why that 'C' button is behaving that way.    Do you think it's worth it to pull out the reset switch on the Keypad Link and then press it in for a few seconds to see if a reset of the keypad link makes a difference ?

 

Open Each of the referenced scenes, the scene attributes need to be set for the root level and each controller link.

example:

First click the root level "Attic Fan" and set the attributes on the right side window.  Then click each of the RED Controller node (Controllers are Red, responders are blue) and set the attributes of each device in the scene.  For this example we need to configure the scene 4 times.

Most at first don't realize how powerful scenes and controllers are.  The attributes set at the root level are what happens when the scene is controlled by the ISY, either from the admin console, an app, or via a portal integration such as Alexa).   When you click each of the RED controller links that's what happans when the scene is activated from that controller.   So for example, if you have a Kitchen Scene and a controller at each end of the kitchen, the scene can respond differntly when the controller at the Left end of the kitchen is used than when the controller at the right end of the kitchen. 

Note:  If there are buttons that need to be turned On/off on another keypad, they must be included as responders. 

I can't tell you exactly what you've done wrong, but perhaps a better understanding of scenes will help you find the misconfiguration.

[Eric]

Mr. Bill,  Thanks for trying to explain.  I really thought I understood.  At the moment my brain is on meltdown on this little thing.   

Everything is working properly when I use the admin console,  so I think that means the settings are correct for the root level, does that make sense ?   Using the admin console and pressing on for the scene,  the scene and the backlight on the 'C' button come on.   Using the admin console, and pressing off, the scene and the backlight go off.   

If I use the end device (Quad Right Outlet) and press on in the console the outlet comes on.   Press off and the outlet goes off.  Nothing happens with the backlight on button C, which I would think would be expected.  Ideally, I suppose the backlight would track the status of the outlet as a responder,  but I'm not sure if I have to build that or if it is normally set up when the scene is built.

This, to me, means that there's something wrong with the 'terrace button c' settings.  That's a controller,  but should it maybe also be a responder ?   Should it merely control the outlet and nothing else ?  Really getting stuck here. 

If I click o Terrace Button C (red),  on the right side I have two lines as responders.  

First line in the table (highlighted)

Device Quad Right Outlet

Action On

Status Off

Folder blank

Link Type Insteon

At the bottom of the right pane,  There is an update button, and to the right a drop down that can be Insteon - Command - Default - Ignore.  Presently set to Insteon.  I have never messed with this so I'm not sure what it does.  On Level is set to On

 

Second line in the table  (highlighted)

Device Terrace Button C

Action default

Status Off

Folder Terrace

Link Type default

There is nothing I can change below in the lower part of the pane.

I'm just lost as to how to adjust this relatively simple thing so that the 'C' button works properly

Sorry to drag this out,  but I think your knowledge will get me there.  I'm also going to go through the cookbooks again to see if I can find something.

Eric

[Eric]

Also,  tried a reset to the Keypad link,  but still the same.  Could be it went bad on me and I should just put in a new keypad link dimmer and see if that helps, but I'm stubborn and want to see if this is something I set up incorrectly.

Eric

 

[lilyoyo1]

Let me get this straight, you have to hit the C button on 2x in order for the Kpl C button to turn on?

If this is the case, factory reset the Kpl. Turn on the C button. Does it still take 2 taps to make the button come on? If not restore the device in the Isy. Turn on the C button again. What happens?

[Eric]

I have to do this from memory, but let's try.

If the button backlight is off and the outlet being controlled is off,  here is what you get.

Press the button once,  The outlet comes on.  The backlight stays off.

Press again,  The outlet remains on, the backlight comes on.

Press again, the Outlet goes off, and the backlight goes off.   That's why it looks like it takes 2 taps.   The second tap doesn't turn off the outlet, it only turns on the backlight, so the next tap (which is the third one) turns everything off.

Remind me of proper reset.   I pulled out the reset tab and waited.  How long do you wait ?   I then pressed the button in and held it in for about 10 seconds.  When I released it, I got a brief beep.  I think that was a reset.   After that, only the connected load was working.  All other buttons and modules were not working, so I think that means all the memory was cleared.   I then did a reload from the ISY,  and when that was complete,  everything was as before.  Button C was not working as expected, but all other buttons were normal.   Could be this Kpl is just done,  but I want to be sure it will help if I buy another.   

 

Eric

[lilyoyo1]

What's the model number

[Eric]

Might be onto something here.   Looking in the admin console,  the Terrace KPL is:

(2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer v.00

 

All of my other KPLs have a software number after the v.

Maybe it's just going to need to be replaced with a new one ?

Eric

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Eric said:

Might be onto something here.   Looking in the admin console,  the Terrace KPL is:

(2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer v.00

 

All of my other KPLs have a software number after the v.

Maybe it's just going to need to be replaced with a new one ?

Eric

Did you do what I said in regards to troubleshooting? The Kpl of obsolete so you may be better off just saying it out for a new one

[MrBill]

@Eric  That is an old model keypad.  However I'm not sure if you got the factory reset correct.   You need to hold the set button in until it beeps. 

 

(source)

Quote

Factory Reset clears all user settings from KeypadLinc including INSTEON Scenes, On-Levels, Ramp Rates, X10 addresses, etc.

1) Pull Set button out (creating an Air Gap)

2) Wait 10 Seconds

3) Push Set Button in and Hold it in

• KeypadLinc will (Beep)

4) Release the Set button

•     Device’s embedded software will re-write all settings to factory defaults
•     A couple of seconds will pass
•     KeypadLinc will (Beep)-(Beep)
•     LEDs will return to normal brightness
•     KeypadLinc returns to Ready Mode
•     Connected load will turn on

 

[Eric]

OK,  we are closing in on something.   I first just was careful to do the reset as pointed out by Mr. Bill,  and after restoration the same problem was there.

I then did another reset following lilyoyo1's instructions.   After the reset but before the restoration from the ISY,  Button C was working normally with a single push for on and then a single push for off...normal toggle state.

After restoration from the ISY, it was first push turns on the outlet,  backlight stayed off.  Second push outlet stayed on, backlight came on. Third push, backlight and outlet went off.   So we went off the rails when I did the restore from the ISY.

I am considering deleting the scene from ISY and seeing what happens,  and then rebuilding it.   Any thoughts ?  

Eric

[MrBill]

18 minutes ago, Eric said:

I am considering deleting the scene from ISY and seeing what happens,  and then rebuilding it.   Any thoughts ? 

Good plan.  I had trouble following your scene setup it might be that you have conflicting settings in two scenes that are each being activated.   Make a single scene and test, then add in complexity, testing at each step.

 

From a few posts back:

Quote

If I use the end device (Quad Right Outlet) and press on in the console the outlet comes on.   Press off and the outlet goes off.  Nothing happens with the backlight on button C, which I would think would be expected.  Ideally, I suppose the backlight would track the status of the outlet as a responder,  but I'm not sure if I have to build that or if it is normally set up when the scene is built.

Make the outlet a controller (instead of a responder) and then the backlight button will stay in synch when the button on the outlet is pressed.

[MrBill]

@Eric to add to that.... After you get the module deleted from all scene's, delete the device from the ISY as well.  Then factory reset it one more time.  and then add it back from scratch.

[lilyoyo1]

Sounds like it works outside of the Isy so it must be something you've programmed inside of it. My guess, is the button is in non toggle off mode and needs to be put in toggle mode

[Eric]

Quite maddening.  All seems OK as I build up the scene.  As soon as I add Button C on the Terrace, the problem manifests again.  lilyoyo1,  I don't know how check toggle mode beyond looking at the Admin screen, and there I don't see anything unusual.  Any thoughts on how to check that what I see in the admin console is what's in the KPL.  I'm going to wipe the KPL again,  but if something stray is coming in from ISY,  I don't know how to see it.

 

MrBill, When you say, get the module deleted from all scenes,  do you mean the KPL or the outlet needs to be deleted ?  I did delete Button C from every scene and then tried adding it back but the problem persists.  Perhaps I'm not resetting, deleting and adding back in the right order.   Seems quite nuts so far.   Everything is OK from the admin console until I add the button C back in.   Also,  I made the outlet a controller.  I'm not interested in pressing the button on the outlet itself,  but I would like the button on the KPL to track what the outlet is doing.   If the KPL button and the outlet are both controllers in the scene, should that make everything track ?

Eric

[MrBill]

@Eric

Toggle mode is under a button named none other than "Buttons Toggle Mode"

What I meant was remove that from all scenes, then remove the keypad itself from the ISY (right click it in the tree and pick "delete"), then factory Reset it.  After its factory reset... you can tell from the detail under Step 4 of the factory reset instructions above if it factory reset, then relink the keypad to the ISY as if it was a new device (since we completly deleted it. 

Finally, since there are suspensions that they device might be bad, do you have another button somewhere else on another keypad that you could use to experiment?

[Eric]

I see the buttons toggle mode in the bottom of the KPL page.  All of the buttons are set for toggle.

I will go through and remove the KPL from all scenes it appears in.  All the buttons as well as the base KPL.   Then I will remove the KPL itself from the ISY and then do a reset on the KPL..and then bring everything back as a new entry.  

I do have another KPL with vacant buttons so I can move the test to that,  but it's going to be giving me some exercise since it's downstairs.    I'm hoping that at least at the end of this I can determine if I need to buy a new KPL.

 

Eric

[Eric]

Well,  a little progress,  but I think this KPL is likely toast (or at least the software for button C)

I did the complete removal of the KPL and re added it to the system.   This time id came up as KeypadLink Dimmer 6 Buttons v.36,   so at least it reported the software version.   I added everything back in slowly and all was well until Button C.   Now,  first press of Button C,  All the LEDs on the KPL go off and there is a strange sound,  the outlet turns on.  A couple seconds later, the LEDs come back on in whatever pattern they were in but Button C is off even though the outlet is on.  Next on push turns on the LED for button C,  and the outlet remains on.  Third push the outlet and the button go off.    I have an identical setup on Button B with a different outlet and all is well.   I think the simplest thing is to get a new KPL.   In any case, it will put a spare on the shelf if it turns out this is my software,  but I'm betting on a defective KPL.

Thanks for the help.  I'm going to re read the cookbook,  but I think I'm doing it right.

One further question.   Is it allowed to have a button on another KPL control 2 scenes to toggle on and off ?  If so,  does the Button on the other KPL track only one of the scenes or is there some kind of logic used ?

Eric

[Eric]

Well,  a little progress,  but I think this KPL is likely toast (or at least the software for button C)

I did the complete removal of the KPL and re added it to the system.   This time id came up as KeypadLink Dimmer 6 Buttons v.36,   so at least it reported the software version.   I added everything back in slowly and all was well until Button C.   Now,  first press of Button C,  All the LEDs on the KPL go off and there is a strange sound,  the outlet turns on.  A couple seconds later, the LEDs come back on in whatever pattern they were in but Button C is off even though the outlet is on.  Next on push turns on the LED for button C,  and the outlet remains on.  Third push the outlet and the button go off.    I have an identical setup on Button B with a different outlet and all is well.   I think the simplest thing is to get a new KPL.   In any case, it will put a spare on the shelf if it turns out this is my software,  but I'm betting on a defective KPL.

Thanks for the help.  I'm going to re read the cookbook,  but I think I'm doing it right.

One further question.   Is it allowed to have a button on another KPL control 2 scenes to toggle on and off ?  If so,  does the Button on the other KPL track only one of the scenes or is there some kind of logic used ?

Eric

[MrBill]

17 hours ago, Eric said:

Well,  a little progress,  but I think this KPL is likely toast (or at least the software for button C)

I did the complete removal of the KPL and re added it to the system.   This time id came up as KeypadLink Dimmer 6 Buttons v.36,   so at least it reported the software version.   I added everything back in slowly and all was well until Button C.   Now,  first press of Button C,  All the LEDs on the KPL go off and there is a strange sound,  the outlet turns on.  A couple seconds later, the LEDs come back on in whatever pattern they were in but Button C is off even though the outlet is on.  Next on push turns on the LED for button C,  and the outlet remains on.  Third push the outlet and the button go off.    I have an identical setup on Button B with a different outlet and all is well.   I think the simplest thing is to get a new KPL.   In any case, it will put a spare on the shelf if it turns out this is my software,  but I'm betting on a defective KPL.

Thanks for the help.  I'm going to re read the cookbook,  but I think I'm doing it right.

One further question.   Is it allowed to have a button on another KPL control 2 scenes to toggle on and off ?  If so,  does the Button on the other KPL track only one of the scenes or is there some kind of logic used ?

Eric

I think the switch is toast.  Sounds like the memory has failed. 

A keypad button AFAIK can only be a controller for 1 scene, however it can exist as a responder in another scenes.  (For Example All OFF)

If you need to turn on two scenes set the keypad button up as a controller for the primary scene.  Then create a program

If

    status "load of primary scene" is not Off

then

    set second scene On

else

    set second scene Off