Simple routine to turn on and off switch LEDs works about half the time

[CPrince]

I have a SwitchLinc dimmer, SwitchLinc on/off and KeypadLinc 5 button, mounted in a box that sits by my bed.  The SwithLinc on/off turns most of the lights in the house off or on by a program that catches the on or off pressed on the switch by ISY.  This seems to work pretty well.  I had to insert some "waits" to increase reliability.  The SwithLink dimmers is directly linked to my bedroom lights, it doesn't need ISY to function.  This works well too.  The KeypadLinc is using 4 scenes to set the fan high, med, low and off.  I copied this out of the ISY Cookbook.  This works well too.  So my problem is the LED's on the 3 switches.  I have 2 simple programs.  On sunrise +2 set the SwitchLinks LED's to 20% and the KeypadLinc to on 6/ off 1.  Then I have another program that at Sunset +2, turn the SwitchLinc LED's to 0% and KeypadLinc to on 0/ off 0.  This is so hit and miss it is driving me crazy.  The the LED's on the SwitchLinks turn on in the wee hours of the morning, sometimes.  This is usually followed by a red exclamation mark in the devices list.  It takes forever to clear the exclamation mark.  I get a communication error.  I have to query and do write updates many times to reset the KeypadLinc.  I have had this running on my HouseLinc with no issues for over a year.  The HouseLink PLM is plugged into the same outlet as the ISY PLM.  This is the only program left running in HousLinc.  Obviously I am not running the same routine on both devices at the same time. 

[lilyoyo1]

Post your programs. Also firmware and UI of your Isy

[MrBill]

59 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Post your programs. Also firmware and UI of your Isy

I was about to resposnd until i got to this part....

4 hours ago, CPrince said:

I have had this running on my HouseLinc with no issues for over a year.  The HouseLink PLM is plugged into the same outlet as the ISY PLM.  This is the only program left running in HousLinc.

which is probably the issue but I don't have the experience with 2 PLMs in the same plug (which might lower signal to the other) nor experience with houselink to point the finger....

@CPrince If diming these keypads is truly all Houselink does get rid of it, remove that has a potential issue.

[Brian H]

If the modules are the power line only type. It is possible the two PLMs in one socket,  are absorbing some of each others power line signals.

If one or both are the 2412 power line only models. That could also be a factor.

[MrBill]

13 minutes ago, Brian H said:

If the modules are the power line only type. It is possible the two PLMs in one socket,  are absorbing some of each others power line signals.

If one or both are the 2412 power line only models. That could also be a factor.

I tried to like that post, but apparently I've over-reacted today... silly forum.

[lilyoyo1]

I doubt 2 plms together would cause any issues since the one being used would be processing any commands at any given moment. If anything, i could see the software's causing conflict since both can run commands concurrently causing collisions. 

With him using the Isy, I would take @MrBilladvice, get rid of houselinc, and move everything to the Isy

[MrBill]

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I doubt 2 plms together would cause any issues since the one being used would be processing any commands at any given moment.

Unless as I believe what Brian is suggesting is that one may become a signal sucker.

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Unless as I believe what Brian is suggesting is that one may become a signal sucker.

It wouldn't . If that was the case, people would have issues when they put range extenders on top of iolincs or switches side by side in the box

[Brian H]

11 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I doubt 2 plms together would cause any issues since the one being used would be processing any commands at any given moment. If anything, i could see the software's causing conflict since both can run commands concurrently causing collisions. 

With him using the Isy, I would take @MrBilladvice, get rid of houselinc, and move everything to the Isy

The receiving circuits in any Insteon Module. When not transmitting can absorb a small amount of the power line signals. So the one not sending a command. Could absorb a small amount of Insteon signal. If there is a marginal signal path. It could be enough to change things. Especially if it was a system with power line only modules {Like Me ? }

As for stacking modules. Only the older designed modules have a pass through outlet. Like the 2450 I/OLinc.

Smarthome did warn about stacking them and I can verify stacking the 2456S3 Appliance modules increases their temperature.

A 2413S PLM is warm enough as is. I stacked an older revision on top of a 2456S3 for a Dual Band sender receiver only and the back got very warm. I don't mind stacking some modules but never a normally warm module like a 2413S PLM.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

The receiving circuits in any Insteon Module. When not transmitting can absorb a small amount of the power line signals. So the one not sending a command. Could absorb a small amount of Insteon signal. If there is a marginal signal path. It could be enough to change things. Especially if it was a system with power line only modules {Like Me ? }

As for stacking modules. Only the older designed modules have a pass through outlet. Like the 2450 I/OLinc.

Smarthome did warn about stacking them and I can verify stacking the 2456S3 Appliance modules increases their temperature.

A 2413S PLM is warm enough as is. I stacked an older revision on top of a 2456S3 for a Dual Band sender receiver only and the back got very warm. I don't mind stacking some modules but never a normally warm module like a 2413S PLM.

Overheating may cause devices to fail but would not cause any signal degradation. Especially since each module would still be repeating the signal. With X10 they would degrade since they do not repeat but the insteon signal itself gets repeated so any potential degradation would be a wash. 

In addition to that, he said plugged into the same outlet not necessarily stacked on top of each other. I used a plug in module stacked on top of an iolinc as an example of Insteon being in close proximity to one another not causing issues (in addition to switches in the same box).

Insteons own test stations often have setups on their carts where modules were either stacked or combined in some way. While anything is possible, I highly doubt proximity would case an issue. 

[CPrince]

Guy's thanks!  Okay I am migrating from HouseLinc to ISY.  These were the last 2 programs to be migrated from HouseLink to ISY out of about 75.  I actually migrated them to ISY but started having issues with both.  So I disabled on ISY and renabled on HouseLinc.  They were not running concurrently on both ISY and HouseLinc.  Both PLMs were plugged into the same extension cord and not a surge protector or UPS.  They were not piggie backed. Both switches are dual band and the keypadlinc is Keypad with Dimmer[2334-232].  The PLMs are current version.

I just pulled the PLM for HouseLinc and re enabled the programs on ISY.  I will see what it does.

Hey my luck day.  Routine just ran with HouseLinc PLM removed and we are still failing.

Tabletop Box.1,A,B,C and D are the LeypadLinc.  II will try adding "wait"s to the program.

 

Attached are the 2 programs

Thanks for your help.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, CPrince said:

Guy's thanks!  Okay I am migrating from HouseLinc to ISY.  These were the last 2 programs to be migrated from HouseLink to ISY out of about 75.  I actually migrated them to ISY but started having issues with both.  So I disabled on ISY and renabled on HouseLinc.  They were not running concurrently on both ISY and HouseLinc.  Both PLMs were plugged into the same extension cord and not a surge protector or UPS.  They were not piggie backed. Both switches are dual band and the keypadlinc is Keypad with Dimmer[2334-232].  The PLMs are current version.

I just pulled the PLM for HouseLinc and re enabled the programs on ISY.  I will see what it does.

Hey my luck day.  Routine just ran with HouseLinc PLM removed and we are still failing.

Tabletop Box.1,A,B,C and D are the LeypadLinc.  II will try adding "wait"s to the program.

 

Attached are the 2 programs

Thanks for your help.

Looks like you're having issues communicating with that kpl. I'd troubleshoot first to ensure communication is good. Next, I'd add a few seconds delay between each line to give time for the commands to process

[ELA]

In Support of Brian's comments to the fact that each Insteon PLC device is a "signal sucker" of sorts to all other Insteon PLC devices:

Below is a listing that quantifies how severe of a signal sucker common household devices are.  Actual current measurements were taken at the Insteon PLC frequency. Those currents were then normalized to the same current demand level that a single Insteon device presents to the power line.

If a person believes that adding an EMI filtered plug strip, or any device with an across the line filter capacitor, can be a signal sucker;  then the chart shows that any a single Insteon device is a signal sucker to that same level.

As Brian pointed out, in marginal situations, two devices next to each other could aggravate  a communications issue. 

 Yes dual band devices and re-transmissions help negate the signal sucker effect of each Insteon device to some extent.

Still none the less true that each Insteon device is a signal sucker.

 

[Brian H]

I have a power strip with built in surge suppressors. It was also designed to filter the AC line. The filter is an across the power line rated .1uF cap in it. That I removed to stop the signal sucking.

I also have portable AC. When connected to the line. One of my power line only 2456S3 ApplianceLinc modules  is intermittent. A Dual Band module in its pass through outlet on the front seems to have cured it.

[CPrince]

Follow up.  I spent an hour trying to clear the communications error.  Finally got up out of my chair and over to the KeypadLinc and pressed some buttons.  I went back to my desk and I cleared the communications error instantly.  The KeypadLinc must have locked up or something.  I added a 5 second delays in both programs.  As far as the LED's turning on at night for no reason, I am thinking it is a HouseLinc issue.  HouseLinc runs a maintenance routine at 1 AM.  HouseLinc is no longer running.  Now I just have to wait an see.

Thanks again.