Using ISY 994i in a small commercial setting + USB PLM (what is this witchcraft?)

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

Z-wave is great but it is a little messy compared to Insteon on the ISY. I think Universal devices should make a new device with both Z-wave and Zigbee and program in the top brands of switches so it will look a lot more like it does with Insteon. I think it is time for a new ISY.

What do you mean look more like insteon does? 

[silverton38]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

What do you mean look more like insteon does? 

Just for example; Z-wave devices show sometimes as multiple devices, the switching parts are sometimes not very clear and you need to experiment to figure that out and sometimes you get multiple switchable devices. 

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

Just for example; Z-wave devices show sometimes as multiple devices, the switching parts are sometimes not very clear and you need to experiment to figure that out and sometimes you get multiple switchable devices. 

That's because all of that information is in the zwave device at the firmware level. The mfg of the device just codes not to add support for it

[silverton38]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's because all of that information is in the zwave device at the firmware level. The mfg of the device just codes not to add support for it

I agree but if a switch was programmed like an Insteon switch it could look similar. Either way this is not a big deal because the final programming is not much different in the end. 

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, silverton38 said:

I agree but if a switch was programmed like an Insteon switch it could look similar. Either way this is not a big deal because the final programming is not much different in the end. 

I get what your saying and it would be nice.  However, they have no control over zwave at the protocol level. It would take OEMs either supporting what the device class is capable of or removing the unnecessary code. 

It may potentially be possible if they only supported a few devices. Then they could program around the code limitations however, that would leave users with minimal choices in devices they wish to use. 

[Brian H]

5 hours ago, MrBill said:

I just discovered this treasure trove of old Developer Docs.  Thought you'd like to have the link,,, it's buried in a folder in the PyInsteon project on github.

Thank you for the link.

I have most of them. Through web searches and links. Having all of them in one place will be a help to many users.

[Brian H]

5 hours ago, silverton38 said:

This is scary. I have a lot of customer homes with ISY and serial PLMs. If I have a failure, I will be in real trouble. I will now try to source them out Ebay and such. Scary. 

A recent look didn't see any of the 2413S PLM on Ebay. I didn't even see any of the older 2412S power line only versions.

If someone does see one. Remember they had a power supply issue and some sellers over rate the items working condition.

[silverton38]

4 hours ago, Brian H said:

A recent look didn't see any of the 2413S PLM on Ebay. I didn't even see any of the older 2412S power line only versions.

If someone does see one. Remember they had a power supply issue and some sellers over rate the items working condition.

I just looked and there is nothing there. I do have a couple of broken PLMs and I am going to try to recap them.

[silverton38]

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I get what your saying and it would be nice.  However, they have no control over zwave at the protocol level. It would take OEMs either supporting what the device class is capable of or removing the unnecessary code. 

It may potentially be possible if they only supported a few devices. Then they could program around the code limitations however, that would leave users with minimal choices in devices they wish to use. 

Other hubs like Smarthings/Hubitat have config files for each device and with that all feature of the Z-wave device is available and easy to view and program. Again this is not a big deal it is just a "nice to have". If there was a new ISY they would sell a lot of them to existing customers. Something to think about.

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, silverton38 said:

Other hubs like Smarthings/Hubitat have config files for each device and with that all feature of the Z-wave device is available and easy to view and program. Again this is not a big deal it is just a "nice to have". If there was a new ISY they would sell a lot of them to existing customers. Something to think about.

That is true. However if you notice, Smartthings out the box actually only lists specific devices as being supported and you are limited in your configuration options. Unlisted "generic" devices can be added but all (including supported devices) have limited configurable options without slot of work on the back end.

The Isy is a controller that shows everything to give full control over your system while Smartthings is basically an app that purposely limits you for the sake of simplicity. There are trade offs to both approaches

[silverton38]

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That is true. However if you notice, Smartthings out the box actually only lists specific devices as being supported and you are limited in your configuration options. Unlisted "generic" devices can be added but all (including supported devices) have limited configurable options without slot of work on the back end.

The Isy is a controller that shows everything to give full control over your system while Smartthings is basically an app that purposely limits you for the sake of simplicity. There are trade offs to both approaches

You are correct. I think the ISY could have a list of "supported" products and then just accept anything else as generic. This would also help us buy the correct products, the pricing is not much different anyway. 

[MrBill]

11 hours ago, silverton38 said:

I just looked and there is nothing there. I do have a couple of broken PLMs and I am going to try to recap them.

the easy way to buy the caps is the Ebay deal.  I bought 2 sets just to have on hand.  Looks like the sellers out of town until the 26th tho, and it does ship from Canada which adds a day or 2 if your in the states... Arrived quickly tho.  Edit to add: note there is two kits a 5 cap and a 7 cap... the slector box chooses.

[lilyoyo1]

38 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

You are correct. I think the ISY could have a list of "supported" products and then just accept anything else as generic. This would also help us buy the correct products, the pricing is not much different anyway. 

The ISY pretty much works with anything now.... Much more than Smartthings. The only products with potential issues are devices that do not follow the protocol

[silverton38]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

the easy way to buy the caps is the Ebay deal.  I bought 2 sets just to have on hand.  Looks like the sellers out of town until the 26th tho, and it does ship from Canada which adds a day or 2 if your in the states... Arrived quickly tho.  Edit to add: note there is two kits a 5 cap and a 7 cap... the slector box chooses.

I will buy them. It pisses me off that I am recapping so that I can replace a PLM in a high end home. This is crazy.

[Brian H]

The kits maybe an easier way to go.  As electronic components are also showing shortages now.

Looks like it has the improved capacitors for the original C7 and C13, 10uF/50V are the replacements.

Smarthome tried different size capacitors in an attempt to get better reliability. You may find 10/35V, 100uF/35V or 100uF/50V. In C7 and C13 positions. Good quality 10uF/50V C7 and C13 would probably be fine.

If by chance you have an original V1.0. It is different. The main board only had one capacitor position so their is rework on the board and C7 C13 and the coil are hanging off of the board with a wire going to the back of the board.

 

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, silverton38 said:

I will buy them. It pisses me off that I am recapping so that I can replace a PLM in a high end home. This is crazy.

High end homes deserve high end systems

[silverton38]

18 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

High end homes deserve high end systems

That is not fair. I built some homes more than 10 years ago and at that time Insteon with an ISY was an excellent solution....it still is. You have instant on/off and it also works in larger homes because of the wireline backup. The dual mode increased the reliability and all has been well since (until this PLM issue).

 

P.S. I have ISYs that have run for years without reboot with the exception of updates. The only failure that I experienced was the power supply in a couple of cases and the PLM in many more cases.

 

I am now going with Caseta for a new house because of this. I am also exploring Radio RA 2 even though it is an overpriced Caseta system.

[silverton38]

18 hours ago, Brian H said:

The kits maybe an easier way to go.  As electronic components are also showing shortages now.

Looks like it has the improved capacitors for the original C7 and C13, 10uF/50V are the replacements.

Smarthome tried different size capacitors in an attempt to get better reliability. You may find 10/35V, 100uF/35V or 100uF/50V. In C7 and C13 positions. Good quality 10uF/50V C7 and C13 would probably be fine.

If by chance you have an original V1.0. It is different. The main board only had one capacitor position so their is rework on the board and C7 C13 and the coil are hanging off of the board with a wire going to the back of the board.

 

Thank you for the advice. It is still crazy that I have to do it.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, silverton38 said:

That is not fair. I built some homes more than 10 years ago and at that time Insteon with an ISY was an excellent solution....it still is. You have instant on/off and it also works in larger homes because of the wireline backup. The dual mode increased the reliability and all has been well since (until this PLM issue).

 

P.S. I have ISYs that have run for years without reboot with the exception of updates. The only failure that I experienced was the power supply in a couple of cases and the PLM in many more cases.

 

I am now going with Caseta for a new house because of this. I am also exploring Radio RA 2 even though it is an overpriced Caseta system.

To each their own. Casetas built in device limitations makes it a non starter for me (and other high end installers) as those types of homes typically exceed it's capacity. 

I also prefer all in one solutions as that means I don't have to worry about new devices not being supported or firmware updates from 1 thing causing an issue with another. 

RA2 is more than an overpriced Caseta. That's like saying a Maybach is the same as the S600. While close, there are subtle details that makes it a step above.

Besides, it doesn't matter. It's a business. It's not your money, it's the clients. You're there to maximize what you make without taking advantage of customers. 

The markup on Ra2 gives you much greater profit margin than Caseta- unless you're adding a ridiculous markup which only serves to piss off customers and lessen the chance of repeat business and/or referrals. By using Caseta, you're costing yourself money by minimizing what you can earn

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

subtle details

I dislike Caseta switches immensely they are way too busy with all the marks and buttons.  RR2 the simple and elegant look that high end customers would be looking for.

[silverton38]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

To each their own. Casetas built in device limitations makes it a non starter for me (and other high end installers) as those types of homes typically exceed it's capacity. 

I also prefer all in one solutions as that means I don't have to worry about new devices not being supported or firmware updates from 1 thing causing an issue with another. 

RA2 is more than an overpriced Caseta. That's like saying a Maybach is the same as the S600. While close, there are subtle details that makes it a step above.

Besides, it doesn't matter. It's a business. It's not your money, it's the clients. You're there to maximize what you make without taking advantage of customers. 

The markup on Ra2 gives you much greater profit margin than Caseta- unless you're adding a ridiculous markup which only serves to piss off customers and lessen the chance of repeat business and/or referrals. By using Caseta, you're costing yourself money by minimizing what you can earn

I am considering RA2. I am taking over a house with it so I will really have to learn it anyway. Will people be willing to pay more for a house with RA2 or does it come out of my profit; that is the question?

They way I make Caseta work in a large house;

-I program the Picos locally (not through the hub) except the all ON/OFF ones.

-Any half bath I put in Lutron motion switches (not smart) and any other space that it works well with one.

-I group up lights in a single room and put in a blank plate as long as the lights are dimmable.

For all my homes I also do this including Caseta homes;

-I program the outside light dusk to dawn and all lights off at 3AM

-I put a black PICO remotes (ALL ON/OFF) at the front switch mounted and the master bedroom by the bed. They see black and they know what it is for.

-I create an email address just for the house (usually streetaddress@gmail.com) so they can hand it off on a sale. I also give them a hand off kit that includes my contact information

-I set up their Alexa and Homekit

 

 

[silverton38]

For an Insteon high end house this is how I do it.

- I set up an ISY with an ISY and an Elk security system

-I use switches over dimmers for halls and any place it is likely not ever going to be dimmed. I only use the dimmers for places that will likely be dimmed. 

-I buy and engrave screwless plates 

-I put a Keypadlinc in the Master and the Front door with the ON/OFF on the top and bottom. I engrave the rest of the keypadlinc buttons for different tasks.

-I program the all off when the alarm is set to away

-I program the outside light dusk to dawn and all lights off at 3AM

-I create an email address just for the house (usually streetaddress@gmail.com) so they can hand it off on a sale. I also give them a hand off kit that includes my contact information

-I set up their Alexa

 

[lilyoyo1]

14 hours ago, silverton38 said:

I am considering RA2. I am taking over a house with it so I will really have to learn it anyway. Will people be willing to pay more for a house with RA2 or does it come out of my profit; that is the question?

They way I make Caseta work in a large house;

-I program the Picos locally (not through the hub) except the all ON/OFF ones.

-Any half bath I put in Lutron motion switches (not smart) and any other space that it works well with one.

-I group up lights in a single room and put in a blank plate as long as the lights are dimmable.

For all my homes I also do this including Caseta homes;

-I program the outside light dusk to dawn and all lights off at 3AM

-I put a black PICO remotes (ALL ON/OFF) at the front switch mounted and the master bedroom by the bed. They see black and they know what it is for.

-I create an email address just for the house (usually streetaddress@gmail.com) so they can hand it off on a sale. I also give them a hand off kit that includes my contact information

-I set up their Alexa and Homekit

 

 

Unless it's your own personal house that you are selling, nothing should come out of your profit unless you're under charging. The clients should be paying for everything.

If your flipping houses then that's a different story. To a certain degree, it will come out of your profit but if you factor that into your material costs from the beginning, that's mitigated as well.

For example, when I did standard homes for a local builder, he set aside 10k to include insteon and a couple of other things into every home he built. The customer could add on custom programming during/after the sale should they choose. Because it was part of the plans and build, the sell of the house reflected that without cutting into profit. There's more that goes into it but this is the general gist. 

By using caseta and insteon as you do, you're actually costing yourself money unknowingly. Time is money. If you're running around manually linking things you've just made less per unit than if you sat at a computer doing everything. The same with insteon. Margin is already thin when it comes to low end consumer devices, so upsell is paramount. We'd install on/off switches and non dimmable bulbs. However the customer could opt for dimmable. In doing so, they'd be paying the switch and bulb cost. Pure profit for minimal effort. Down the road, should they find out the cost of an insteon dimmer, they aren't upset at a huge markup which means they're more likely to refer you to friends as well as continue to use you for more services in the future. 

[silverton38]

3 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Unless it's your own personal house that you are selling, nothing should come out of your profit unless you're under charging. The clients should be paying for everything.

If your flipping houses then that's a different story. To a certain degree, it will come out of your profit but if you factor that into your material costs from the beginning, that's mitigated as well.

For example, when I did standard homes for a local builder, he set aside 10k to include insteon and a couple of other things into every home he built. The customer could add on custom programming during/after the sale should they choose. Because it was part of the plans and build, the sell of the house reflected that without cutting into profit. There's more that goes into it but this is the general gist. 

By using caseta and insteon as you do, you're actually costing yourself money unknowingly. Time is money. If you're running around manually linking things you've just made less per unit than if you sat at a computer doing everything. The same with insteon. Margin is already thin when it comes to low end consumer devices, so upsell is paramount. We'd install on/off switches and non dimmable bulbs. However the customer could opt for dimmable. In doing so, they'd be paying the switch and bulb cost. Pure profit for minimal effort. Down the road, should they find out the cost of an insteon dimmer, they aren't upset at a huge markup which means they're more likely to refer you to friends as well as continue to use you for more services in the future. 

I will have to give RA2 a real shot. I have just picked up a house with it.  The house does not have any keypads but just the nice Lutron Dimmer style switches and the black hub.

[simplextech]

22 minutes ago, silverton38 said:

just the nice Lutron Dimmer style switches and the black hub.

Black hub?  That's either a Lutron Connect box that provides integration to voice assistants (Alexa, Google, Siri) or that's a Lutron RA2 Select system.  RA2 Select does not support keypads which may be why there's none in the house.