Generator issues.

[Will T]

I’ve just installed an isy 994i in my vacation home. 
This home has been around for many years, and I have had insteon systems in place at other homes. 
I test ran the whole house generator for the first time since installing various insteon devices and the isy, and all the keypads did not respond properly. 
I’ve never had problems with this generator over the years. What could be happening?

Im suspecting dirty power or a ground issue. Any help would be appreciated. 

[MrBill]

So on utility power there is no issue, but transfer to generator power and devices stop talking to each other?

[larryllix]

Some generators can produce dirty power or an off frequency. IIRC Insteon signals are based off the falling zero crossing of the previous waveform so frequency can be critical. Likewise waveform distortion (harmonics and distortion) can mess with Insteon's synchronisation os signals also.

Is the generator a synthesized waveform or a mechanical generator with a speed governor? You can easily tell f the speed changes with load.

[marcin]

What make and model of generator do you have? I 

Edited August 31, 2021 by marcin

[Will T]

This is a mechanical genset. I built it years ago by marrying an Isuzu diesel forklift motor to a generator. 
it is speed governed, but I’m already guessing that’s not good enough now. 
it was fine years ago, but I just now test ran it with the insteon system. 
when powered by the generator, the insteon dimmers have their indicator lights flash sporadically, and the system doesn’t communicate. 
is there some kind of filtration / power conditioner that can be added?

[larryllix]

Electro-mechanical generators can have split core laminated poles also that can really make a mess of the waveform, injecting harmonics (bumps) in the sinewave. I am not sure why they do this with the cores. Maybe a heating reducer or a reduction in eddiecurrents somehow???

I would think there would be a way of filtering a lot of the waveform distortion out, but it may be expensive. The frequency will be up to the governor and if mechanical, may not stay stable, and wander somewhat anyway.

I don't know how critical any of these factors are and only trial and error would likely tell you. Do you have any waveform analysis equipment, or maybe a frequency function on a multimeter?

[Will T]

I was thinking about getting an oscilloscope. That’d at least show the waveform and any noise. 

[Will T]

Amazon sells this power conditioner:

Satic Power Perfect Box - Whole Home Dirty Electricity Filter, Surge Protector and Cost Saver! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K3XH5PJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_7S91G54FVAWEKY1JNSB2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
 

Any thoughts?

[larryllix]

13 minutes ago, Will T said:

I was thinking about getting an oscilloscope. That’d at least show the waveform and any noise. 

After using oscilloscopes for decades and working in the electrical distribution industry for my career I can tell you without special distortion analysis, an oscilloscope will not make distortion visible unless it is extreme.

You may find some oscilloscope dongles for PC analysis cheaply though. 60Hz can be analysed by PC software and still play games at the same time with the CPU speeds these days. The software could also tell you harmonics and what frequencies. That could also help you find, or reject the idea, of a filter.

[larryllix]

16 minutes ago, Will T said:

Amazon sells this power conditioner:

Satic Power Perfect Box - Whole Home Dirty Electricity Filter, Surge Protector and Cost Saver! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K3XH5PJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_7S91G54FVAWEKY1JNSB2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
 

Any thoughts?

Not available
Not a filter but rather a spike/disturbance suppressor. The power must travel through a filter.
Withe the BS in the advert (lots of FUD and half-truths) , it was likely removed from amazon.

Depending on the size of your generator a decent harmonic filter may cost you thousands of dollars. You still have your frequency accuracy to contend with.

[Will T]

I really appreciate your help. This is a 15 kw genset. Where would you start? I’d rather not have to scrap the genset, all the stored fuel, etc. I’ve got it as EMP protected as I can.  It’s a durable system that’ll run for the long haul in a rural location. 
I’m an engineer. Mechanical many moons ago lol. 
But I’m pretty computer savvy. Thanks for any insight you can give. I’m using more and more insteon. It’s easy to program, and it works (when connected to the grid)

was thinking a battery bank, with an inverter. Just use the genny to charge the batteries. That’s a lot of expense too. 

[larryllix]

13 minutes ago, Will T said:

I really appreciate your help. This is a 15 kw genset. Where would you start? I’d rather not have to scrap the genset, all the stored fuel, etc. I’ve got it as EMP protected as I can.  It’s a durable system that’ll run for the long haul in a rural location. 
I’m an engineer. Mechanical many moons ago lol. 
But I’m pretty computer savvy. Thanks for any insight you can give. I’m using more and more insteon. It’s easy to program, and it works (when connected to the grid)

was thinking a battery bank, with an inverter. Just use the genny to charge the batteries. That’s a lot of expense too. 

hmmmmm. I am not sure what to tell you, here.

See if you can beg, borrow, or steal some harmonic analyser equipment and go from there.  I have a PV setup and it can get expensive. I run the smallest/cheapest  batteries (low maintenance car batteries) possible and other than the space and ventilation they require, they cost me about $1K for about 5-6 hours of backup and that doesn't include A/C or any big appliances, just Routers, TV, and a few stairs lights  I was conned into using deep cycle batteries for a few sets and they don't last long and require a lot of maintenance. Miss the watering and buy a new set in 4-5 years again.

At 15kW I assume you want to run the whole house including the A/C. Be cheaper to go Zwave than toss the genset?? Maybe just some Zwave where the function during genset backup is needed???

Get a better analysis of that waveform first though. I may be giving you a bum steer here about the Insteon problems.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by larryllix

[Will T]

Thank you so much. I’m not at that location now, but if memory serves, it is a Marathon generator. I’ll be up there later this week.  I know there are voltage regulators that can be bought for these. Won’t solve the frequency issues though. 

[Teken]

In the ideal world the generator would provide a pure clean sine wave. Since you’re working with the hardware in hand the most reasonable and expensive solution is to install an inverter that supports a ATS and provides clean 120 / 240 VAC.

As you noted you could also go the route of a LiPoe4 battery bank which offers more redundancy and fail over while offering less fuel consumption and optional renewable power via PV.

If this home is intended as a shelter in place / SHTF - smart switches are not following best practices of KISS.

You’ll never see any serious so called disaster bunker, shelter in place, safe room use any form of smart switch. Standard toggle / decora switches almost never fail especially due to electrical faults whether it be a sag, lull, rise, spike / surge.

KISS, Power of 3, and 1 is none 2 is one, is the cornerstone of disaster preparation.