Is RadioRA3 the Ultimate Replacement For Insteon?

[dbwarner5]

One more question, I see in the Insteon Inventory thread, that @simplextech mentions using both Caseta and Radio RA2, depending on application / cost.

Does that mean that the Radio RA2 hub can integrate the Caseta line? or does this require two separate hubs / systems.  If its one hub, then I assume the Radio RA2 node server can read the caseta info as well then for integration into the ISY?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, dbwarner5 said:

One more question, I see in the Insteon Inventory thread, that @simplextech mentions using both Caseta and Radio RA2, depending on application / cost.

Does that mean that the Radio RA2 hub can integrate the Caseta line? or does this require two separate hubs / systems.  If its one hub, then I assume the Radio RA2 node server can read the caseta info as well then for integration into the ISY?

Caseta is its own system. It has its own hub just like Ra2 does. It cannot be upgraded to work with Ra2 nor Ra3.

I dont know what Simplextech stated but generally those who are in this as a business try to push people towards what will fit their budget and needs. For example, a person with a 1200sq ft home and a small budget can probably get away with using Caseta, whereas someone with a 5k sq ft home would need Ra2

Im assuming his response was geared towards those reasons.

[simplextech]

2 hours ago, dbwarner5 said:

One more question, I see in the Insteon Inventory thread, that @simplextech mentions using both Caseta and Radio RA2, depending on application / cost.

Does that mean that the Radio RA2 hub can integrate the Caseta line? or does this require two separate hubs / systems.  If its one hub, then I assume the Radio RA2 node server can read the caseta info as well then for integration into the ISY?

I was stating that I run both systems.  In fact I have the 3 primary systems and looking to add HomeWorks.  I also run many control systems.  This does not imply that they speak to each other. 

Lutron Caseta, Lutron RA 2 Select, Lutron Radio Ra 2/3, Lutron HomeWorks.  Those are all separate systems each with their own controller (bridge).  Those are the Residential product lines. 

Using "Marketing" terms Caseta and RA2 Select are the "consumer" product lines.  Radio Ra 2/3 and HomeWorks are the Professional or Dealer product lines.  However anyone after completing the training can run Radio Ra 2/3.  HomeWorks is still a very selective dealer only system and expensive training requirement.

The only universal device among all systems are the Pico Remotes (which are awesome). 

Nothing from Caseta works with anything except Caseta. 

Switch/Dimmer's from RA2 Select are the same used by Radio Ra 2/3 which would enable one to upgrade from RA 2 Select to a full Radio Ra 2/3 system by replacing the main repeater (bridge).

Nothing from Radio Ra 2 is compatible with HomeWorks.  To move from Radio Ra 2/3 to HomeWorks is a full rip-replace.

[stillwater]

I have now looked at the Lutron web page on Radio Ra3 devices.   They look very stylish and I like the fact that custom engraving is available (or priced in?) and the LED indicator light brightness is programmable.  Given the small number of keys I'm beginning to think it was a good thing that I have more KPLs than I really needed so now space for installing more buttons than would otherwise be possible.     However it's unclear to me whether the multiple key units also control a local load.  If not a retrofit for KPLs might require some remote dimmers as well as the keypads, as most of my KPLs control loads.   

I can't say I'm looking forward to learning the pricing.  When we built our house a Lutron Homeworks QS system would have cost 5x Insteon and I had no confidence that our local installer would be patient or competent enough to do what we wanted.   So getting this level of fit and finish in a possibly prosumer installed system is attractive (you know the plastic won't yellow and the electronics won't die ) -- IF it can be integrated via ISY (etc) with other elements of home automation...  

For now I am planning on extending the life of my Insteon system rather than switching but there are other buildings in my near future and maybe the Ra3 devices will have  a place there. (Fortunately they are simple  and so the alternative may be dumb dimmers). 

[upstatemike]

6 minutes ago, stillwater said:

I have now looked at the Lutron web page on Radio Ra3 devices.   They look very stylish and I like the fact that custom engraving is available (or priced in?) and the LED indicator light brightness is programmable.  Given the small number of keys I'm beginning to think it was a good thing that I have more KPLs than I really needed so now space for installing more buttons than would otherwise be possible.     However it's unclear to me whether the multiple key units also control a local load.  If not a retrofit for KPLs might require some remote dimmers as well as the keypads, as most of my KPLs control loads.   

I can't say I'm looking forward to learning the pricing.  When we built our house a Lutron Homeworks QS system would have cost 5x Insteon and I had no confidence that our local installer would be patient or competent enough to do what we wanted.   So getting this level of fit and finish in a possibly prosumer installed system is attractive (you know the plastic won't yellow and the electronics won't die ) -- IF it can be integrated via ISY (etc) with other elements of home automation...  

For now I am planning on extending the life of my Insteon system rather than switching but there are other buildings in my near future and maybe the Ra3 devices will have  a place there. (Fortunately they are simple  and so the alternative may be dumb dimmers). 

Lutron has announced that RA3 Keypads that also control loads will be released in the near future.

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, stillwater said:

However it's unclear to me whether the multiple key units also control a local load.

Ra 3 is not even available yet and the product catalog is still growing and will continue to grow.

Within Ra 2 which is compatible with the Ra 3 main repeater there are options for keypads.  There are traditional keypads (no load) and hybrid keypads (with load).  The Ra 2 keypads also come in a variety of faceplate configurations for the buttons.  You can also replace the faceplate to change the button configuration.

[stillwater]

Thanks @upstatemikeand @simplextech.   Being able to install a reasonably complex Lutron system without being at the mercy of the local installer and being able to integrate with other automation via ISY does seem like a very promising route for replacing Insteon and in many ways improving on it.   

This assumes that the 2.4 MHZ communication somehow doesn't conflict with 2.4 MHZ wifi.   I see  that one Radio RA3  controller can (according to specs) serve up to 200 Lutron devices and there is a path for using two to serve up to 400 devices total.  

(I mean no offense to the installers on this forum.  I am only speaking from my experience with a particular company.)

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, stillwater said:

Thanks @upstatemikeand @simplextech.   Being able to install a reasonably complex Lutron system without being at the mercy of the local installer and being able to integrate with other automation via ISY does seem like a very promising route for replacing Insteon and in many ways improving on it.   

This assumes that the 2.4 MHZ communication somehow doesn't conflict with 2.4 MHZ wifi.   I see  that one Radio RA3  controller can (according to specs) serve up to 200 Lutron devices and there is a path for using two to serve up to 400 devices total.  

(I mean no offense to the installers on this forum.  I am only speaking from my experience with a particular company.)

I don't think he was talking to you about your questions. Just others with absolutely no experience with the products in question. 

The likelihood of interference is Minute. Granted anything can happen but if there is, you have other issues you should be looking at rather than the devices themselves. There are simply too many people living in apartments and condos in dense urban areas without issues for me to worry about it in a single family home

[upstatemike]

22 minutes ago, stillwater said:

Thanks @upstatemikeand @simplextech.   Being able to install a reasonably complex Lutron system without being at the mercy of the local installer and being able to integrate with other automation via ISY does seem like a very promising route for replacing Insteon and in many ways improving on it.   

This assumes that the 2.4 MHZ communication somehow doesn't conflict with 2.4 MHZ wifi.   I see  that one Radio RA3  controller can (according to specs) serve up to 200 Lutron devices and there is a path for using two to serve up to 400 devices total.  

(I mean no offense to the installers on this forum.  I am only speaking from my experience with a particular company.)

Minor correction. The RA3 system can support 100 RA3 (Clear Connect Type X) devices and 95 RA2 (Clear Connect Type A) devices for a total of 195 (200 if you count the RA3 gateway and 4 RA2 repeaters). The RA2 Repeaters (you can add up to 4) will extend the area you can place RA2 devices but they do not increase the total device count of the system. RA3 is extended via device to device communication so there are no repeaters currently for the RA3 side of the system.

I have not seen information about Lutron releasing repeaters for RA3 and if they did I don't know if they would increase the device count or simply extend the range beyond the current 75 foot limit.

[stillwater]

@upstatemikeThanks for the clarification on the device serving capability of the RA3 processor.   I haven't again found the the Lutron page that referred to a coming capability to link two RA3 processors to serve 400 devices but the language was very similar to that found on the following page, which seems to be essentially copied from a Lutron press release or webpage. 

https://www.prolighting.com/blog/2021/12/03/lutron-reveals-game-changing-radiora-3-for-2022/

"Each processor controls up to 200 Lutron devices** with Lutron’s ultra-reliable ClearConnect® RF technology. Coming soon — the ability to pair two RA 3 processors to create 1 system of up to 400 devices."

"**Up to 100 new RadioRA 3 devices (dimmers, keypads, switches) + 100 compatible RadioRA 2 & RA2 Select devices."

(consistent with your clarification)

[upstatemike]

28 minutes ago, stillwater said:

@upstatemikeThanks for the clarification on the device serving capability of the RA3 processor.   I haven't again found the the Lutron page that referred to a coming capability to link two RA3 processors to serve 400 devices but the language was very similar to that found on the following page, which seems to be essentially copied from a Lutron press release or webpage. 

https://www.prolighting.com/blog/2021/12/03/lutron-reveals-game-changing-radiora-3-for-2022/

"Each processor controls up to 200 Lutron devices** with Lutron’s ultra-reliable ClearConnect® RF technology. Coming soon — the ability to pair two RA 3 processors to create 1 system of up to 400 devices."

"**Up to 100 new RadioRA 3 devices (dimmers, keypads, switches) + 100 compatible RadioRA 2 & RA2 Select devices."

(consistent with your clarification)

That is probably based on a dealer communication so it is likely accurate. There may be some special considerations when linking two processors on how devices from one interact with devices on the other but we will have to wait until the feature is released to get that level of detail. Overall I feel sure the system will do what you want it to.

If I were planning a system I would spec RA3 for all switches, dimmers, and keypads and just use RA2 for Pico remotes, shades, plug-in modules, and motion sensors. You will still need Z-Wave or something for water sensors, color bulbs and such but Polisy will link it all together so it works smoothly.

[stillwater]

The reference to two RA3 processors serving 400 devices is about half way down this page from the official Lutron site:

https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en/whats-new

The footnote describing that 200 devices is actually up to 100 of each kind is also on this page. 

[lilyoyo1]

46 minutes ago, stillwater said:

The reference to two RA3 processors serving 400 devices is about half way down this page from the official Lutron site:

https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en/whats-new

The footnote describing that 200 devices is actually up to 100 of each kind is also on this page. 

There are caveats to the device count. Take the class. It's free and will tell you malot of what you need (without the experience of installing)

[stillwater]

@lilyoyo1  Thanks.  I will take the class at some point.   My only motive in this last post was to document the official character of the statement that in the near future Lutron intends to enable using two RA3 processors to more or less double the devices served.   I wasn't arguing with the detailed info @upstatemikeprovided.    

[upstatemike]

On 1/5/2022 at 10:36 PM, simplextech said:

Ra 3 is not even available yet and the product catalog is still growing and will continue to grow.

I just got an email saying "Congratulations! You are a RadioRA 3 Installer!"

It will be nice when there is something actually available to install.

[hart2hart]

I just got an email saying "Congratulations! You are a RadioRA 3 Installer!"
It will be nice when there is something actually available to install.

Congratulations. I’ve signed up but have not taken the online courses. How long do they take to complete?

[lilyoyo1]

10 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

Congratulations. I’ve signed up but have not taken the online courses. How long do they take to complete?

A couple of hrs if you sit through everything at once

[hart2hart]

A couple of hrs if you sit through everything at once

Thanks. I’ll do it this weekend.

[nadler]

I was intrigued by this thread and decided to take the RadioRA3 course (which I passed), to get some more detail.  I'm moving in about a month from a house to a condo to downsize.  After several decades with X-10, insteon, ISY, polisy, alexa etc I want to create the same experience in my new home.  RA3 with polisy seems like an ideal solution to me, but I have fun with DIY automation and want to continue the DIY aspect. I downloaded designer and that's right up my alley.

The course raised several questions that perhaps the dealers/installer can answer. 

It seems that Homeworks is required for some aspects of the RadioRA3 install.  Is that correct?  They talk about logging in as a Professional rather than consumer with your Homeworks Id in the Lutron app.  I'm not about to pay $6000 for the class.  Is there some other way of setting up the system?

Cost of switches.  Some of the RadioRA3 switches have been released and are available at retail.  For example the lutron ra3 RRST-PRO-N Sunnata dimmer is $163 - $239 depending on source.  This might be above my reach for a whole house.  Would any Lutron dealer/installer confirm these are realistic prices or are they just high prices because the items have just been released?

Is anyone working on a NS for RadioRA3?  I saw the one for NS RadioRA2.

Thanks everyone.

[bpwwer]

1 hour ago, nadler said:

It seems that Homeworks is required for some aspects of the RadioRA3 install.  Is that correct?  They talk about logging in as a Professional rather than consumer with your Homeworks Id in the Lutron app.  I'm not about to pay $6000 for the class.  Is there some other way of setting up the system?

I also took the class and don't recall any requirement for Homeworks.  One of the installers here can provide more/better information, but I believe you only need to be Homeworks if you want to install the Homeworks line of products, which is their very top end line.

1 hour ago, nadler said:

Is anyone working on a NS for RadioRA3?  I saw the one for NS RadioRA2.

Thanks everyone.

Not yet. UDI is working with Lutron to get access to the information needed to create a node server.  Once that is available work will start on one.

[upstatemike]

The RadioRA3 software is based on Homeworks and is much different from RadioRA2 software but there is no other connection that I have heard about.

You had to get a Lutron ID to take the course so you are all set to access what you need for RadioRA3.

Last published retail price I saw for RadioRA3 was $199 for dimmers and $99 for companion switches.

[nadler]

Thanks @upstatemike@bpwwer

Homeworks was mentioned in the section discussing remote access and the mylutron account in the Lutron app.  You were just supposed to click on Homeworks as opposed to Caseta. I'm glad the Homeworks course isn't needed.

As to the price of the switches, I will have to work on someone here helping me out on the pricing for a medium order.

 

[simplextech]

13 minutes ago, nadler said:

Thanks @upstatemike@bpwwer

Homeworks was mentioned in the section discussing remote access and the mylutron account in the Lutron app.  You were just supposed to click on Homeworks as opposed to Caseta. I'm glad the Homeworks course isn't needed.

As to the price of the switches, I will have to work on someone here helping me out on the pricing for a medium order.

 

As was previously mentioned HomeWorks is different system.  What was does with Ra 3 though was to combine the software into a single package.  Previous there was a Designer software for HomeWorks and a different software for Ra 2.  It's actually really nice they are now just combined.

As for device pricing send me a PM with what you're looking for.  Lots of scalpers out there currently due to the low supply.

[upstatemike]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:08 PM, bpwwer said:

...UDI is working with Lutron to get access to the information needed to create a node server.  Once that is available work will start on one.

Do we know if Lutron will allow UDI to integrate with RA3? Lutron is aggressive at maintaining barriers between products targeting different market segments. Will they use the transition from Telnet to LEAP as an opportunity to segregate high end integration partners like Crestron, Control4, and Elan from DIY focused platforms like Hubitat, Homeseer, and Polisy? Can UDI make the case that they compete within the high dollar integator group?

[Jimbo.Automates]

There is already a Nodeserver that uses LEAP, but currently only supports blinds since that is all I needed.  I've seen some talk that there may be some differences with RA3 but sounds like it all still works.

I was considering switching our little lake house from Insteaon to RA3 after the remodel our remodel is complete, but those prices have made me think twice...