Scene Reliability Problems

[dkaleita]

I am having communication problems in my ISY-99 scenes. when my programs command Insteon units individually, they work properly every time. But when I tell a scene to go on or off, 1 or 2 of the devices don't seem to get the message about half the time. Each of my scenes have between 8 and 12 devices assigned to them, and it is always the same few devices that miss the signal. The problematic devices are a couple of SwitchLincs, and an OutletLinc. Again, these units work fine if I control them individually. In fact, they seem to work fine if I enroll one of them in a scene with less than two other devices and then control that small scene. But the more devices in the scene, the more likely that something isn't going to go on or off as expected.

 

I am running ISY-99 firmware 2.7.0 (why no auto updates?) I've got four access points installed in various places around my house- two on each phase. My house is about 2500 square feet, and I've got a mix of 46 Insteon devices hooked up.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello dkaleita,

 

If your SWLs are versions 35 - and in some rare situations - not only they do not respond to scene commands but also they cause network unreliability for other devices. Please try the Tools | Diagnostics | Scene Test and see if they fail. If they do, then:

1. Ensure that they are not connected to CFLs, Halogen lights, and low voltage transformers

2. If at all possible, move the Access Points closer

 

If they still fail, then I suspect defective SWLs ... again, please note the version number. If v35, then in all likelihood the SWLs are the cause.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[dkaleita]

I have nine SWL v.35's in my set-up. They are all controlling dimmable 110V loads- but some of them are indeed dimmable compact fluorescents. I tried moving the Access Points around, but it did not help. Several of my scene tests fail if I start them with the lights already on.

 

BTW, I al slso having trouble with a couple of ApplianceLincs and LampLincs within the problematic scenes. Are there known communications problems with any particular versions of these, or other modules? I have several of many types and vintages of SmartHome insteon devices in my setup- including ICON versions.

 

If the v.35 SWLs are the culprit, is there anything I can do about it- short of throwing hundreds of dollars worth of modules in the trash?

 

Dave K.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Dave K,

 

Have you tried contacting SmartHome? If not, then I strongly recommend contacting them since, in most cases, they are very good with replacing problematic devices.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[dkaleita]

Okay, I have received and installed replacements for my 9 SwitchLinc Dimmers v.35 with v.37 units, and my communication issues are now 90% gone. The only remaining problems I'm still having are with two OutletLinc v.32 units, with the same symptoms as my original complaint: they work when controlled by a linked controller, but frequently (but not always) fail to operate when controlled as a part of a scene.

 

I do notice that when I sent a command from a KeypadLinc to turn either of these two units on or off, it takes several seconds for the action to finally complete (during which the KeypadLinc lights are blinking- indicating lots of retransmission trys. The ISY-99 scene tests consistently fail at these units. I have a third OutletLinc that is v.37 that does not exhibit this problem at all.

 

The only other thing in common between the two problematic v.32 OutletLincs (besides the firmware version) is that they are on GFI-protected circuits, while the working v.37 unit is not. I tried plugging access points directly into one or both of these units, but it made no difference.

 

Any ideas what I should try next?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello again,

 

Thanks so very much for the update.

 

I think the problem is the GFI circuit. Alternatively, please remove anything that is plugged into your outletlincs and retry.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[ryarber]

Are there any problems with the Icon Dimmer v.35 or just the SWL's? Was there a problem with a KPL as well?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi,

 

Just SWL35 and KPL1.5/1.6.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[bktong]

Michael,

 

Is it only SWL v35 or v35 and below? Could one of these that is not part of a scenes still causes a communication problem for other devices?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello bktong, only SWL 35 and yes: they do not necessarily have to be part of a scene to cause comm. problems.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

Michael,

 

Is it only SWL v35 or v35 and below? Could one of these that is not part of a scenes still causes a communication problem for other devices?

[sdgr1100s]

HI Michel,

 

I am having exactly the same issues....in 2 of my scenes several of the devices will not respond, however if I send a signal to the device directly, the device responds. The devices are all controlled by keypadlincs V.36. I did try the scene test on level 3 - it suceeded

I have moved access points around (4 in total), tried filterlincs or unplugging....to no avail.

 

Please advise

 

Thanks,

 

Simon

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Simon,

 

If the problematic devices SWL v35, then that's the root cause. Otherwise, I recommend checking the load on those devices. If the loads are CFL or low voltage transformers, then that's the issue.

 

Also, please make sure you do not have any SignaLincs in your network. The combination of SingaLinc and Access Points are, basically, quite problematic.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

I am a bit alarmed at your statement of having both signalinc's and Access Points on the same network. I have signalinc's installed at the breaker box, as well as about 6 access points. I have been having communication problems for some time, and have tackled a little more than half of them. But about half remain. I have not heard this before. Have a lot of folks seen these problems?

 

 

 

Hi Simon,

 

If the problematic devices SWL v35, then that's the root cause. Otherwise, I recommend checking the load on those devices. If the loads are CFL or low voltage transformers, then that's the issue.

 

Also, please make sure you do not have any SignaLincs in your network. The combination of SingaLinc and Access Points are, basically, quite problematic.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

justin.cool,

 

I am so very sorry to have alarmed you. Here are my rules of thumb:

1. SignaLincs (wireless ones) should NOT be used when you have Access Points. They do in fact cause major interference

2. If you have 10 wired devices in each 200 sq feet of your house (assuming the phases are bridged at the breaker box), then you should not ever need an Access Point. In this case, Access Points should only be used for RF devices strategically located near them

3. If you have more than 4 access points and if you still have communications problem, then the problem is much more than signal strength. From my experience:

-- a. If you have SWL 35s (as reported by the Admin Console) rest assured that these are the causes for all your communications issues

-- b. If you have SignaLincs, rest assured they are causing interference

-- c. If neither one of the above, then you have to look for CFL, Low Voltage Transformers, Plasma TVs, old monitors and phone charges OR old X10 couplers

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Michel

 

Thanks for the response. Need to make one thing clear, in your statement below:

 

-- b. If you have SignaLincs, rest assured they are causing interference

 

Do you mean the RF signalincs, or the hardwired version that has no RF capability? I have signallincs at the breaker box to bridge the phases, but they are NOT the RF kind. Ialso have something like 10 wired devices in each 200 sq feet, particularly in the area where the KPL's and devices that are unreliable in scenes are.

 

If I could bother you with a second question. I have only one reported SWL .35, as reported by the admin console. However, I have found that the version number does not always come through when I install a device, UNLESS I have the ISY-99 do an "autodetect". As a result, I have a lot of v.00 devices as reported by the admin console. Do I have to look on each device to verify the Rev #?

 

 

 

justin.cool,

 

I am so very sorry to have alarmed you. Here are my rules of thumb:

1. SignaLincs (wireless ones) should NOT be used when you have Access Points. They do in fact cause major interference

2. If you have 10 wired devices in each 200 sq feet of your house (assuming the phases are bridged at the breaker box), then you should not ever need an Access Point. In this case, Access Points should only be used for RF devices strategically located near them

3. If you have more than 4 access points and if you still have communications problem, then the problem is much more than signal strength. From my experience:

-- a. If you have SWL 35s (as reported by the Admin Console) rest assured that these are the causes for all your communications issues

-- b. If you have SignaLincs, rest assured they are causing interference

-- c. If neither one of the above, then you have to look for CFL, Low Voltage Transformers, Plasma TVs, old monitors and phone charges OR old X10 couplers

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Brian H]

I believe I have seen messages saying that Autodetect is the only way to guarantee the revision is known and the V.00 is not reported.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi justin.cool,

 

I was referring to RF SignaLinc bridges. If you have wired, then I wouldn't worry about it.

 

If you do not use Auto Discover, ISY will not be able to get the firmware version out of the device and that's why you see 00.

 

To see if you have SWL35s, you can either remove your SWLs with 00 and do an auto discover or look at the back of the unit for firm 40. Based on the fact that you have at least one SWL 35 and based on the classic scene issues only scene with SWL 35, I suspect that you have many more of them.

 

A simple test - if possible - would be that you have two devices in the same gang box, one SWL and one KPL. In scenes, the KPL responds correctly whereas the SWL responds either half the time or with a delay.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[dkaleita]

-- c. If neither one of the above, then you have to look for CFL, Low Voltage Transformers, Plasma TVs, old monitors and phone charges OR old X10 couplers

 

I'm also still having a few random, unexplainaned problems. I have replaced all of my v.35 devices and have removed all X10 devices from my house except for two X10 SwitchLinc Relays (which I still control from my isy99), and the item listed in #2 below. All I can think of is:

 

1) I do have a couple of DIMMABLE compact fluorescents in my system. But I do not dim them, and these are not the devices that are malfunctioning.

 

2) I still have an old Leviton HCA02-10E 2-Phase X10 Coupler-Repeater hard-wired inside my breaker box. I know you're going to tell me to disconnect this just in case, but have you ever encountered any hard evidence that this active coupler-repeater causes interference with Insteon communications?

 

3) I have five APC UPS devices in my house for my computer, audio and video equipment. But all five are plugged into ACT AF120 15A Plig-In Filters (SmartHome Item# 4845ACF), as are my two refrigerators. These filters made all of my old X10 problems go away.

 

4) My entire house is protected with a Leviton Whole House Surge Suppressor / Surge Protector #51120-1 that is hard-wired into the main 220VAC feed into my house.

 

Any suggestions about what I should try next would be appreciated.

 

I wish somebody made an Insteon signal sniffer that I could use for diagnostics like my old X10 signal tester.

[dkaleita]

-- c. If neither one of the above, then you have to look for CFL, Low Voltage Transformers, Plasma TVs, old monitors and phone charges OR old X10 couplers

 

I'm also still having a few random, unexplainaned problems. I have replaced all of my v.35 devices and have removed all X10 devices from my house except for two X10 SwitchLinc Relays (which I still control from my isy99), and the item listed in #2 below. All I can think of is:

 

1) I do have a couple of DIMMABLE compact fluorescents in my system. But I do not dim them, and these are not the devices that are malfunctioning.

 

2) I still have an old Leviton HCA02-10E 2-Phase X10 Coupler-Repeater hard-wired inside my breaker box. I know you're going to tell me to disconnect this just in case, but have you ever encountered any hard evidence that this active coupler-repeater causes interference with Insteon communications?

 

3) I have five APC UPS devices in my house for my computer, audio and video equipment. But all five are plugged into ACT AF120 15A Plug-In Filters (SmartHome Item# 4845ACF), as are my two refrigerators. These filters made all of my old X10 problems go away.

 

4) My entire house is protected with a Leviton Whole House Surge Suppressor / Surge Protector #51120-1 that is hard-wired into the main 220VAC feed into my house.

 

Any suggestions about what I should try next would be appreciated.

 

I wish somebody made an Insteon signal sniffer that I could use for diagnostics like my old X10 signal tester.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello dkaleita,

 

I do not have any hard evidence to conclude that X10 repeaters cause problems. In what I've encountered, in 50% of the cases, removing them helps alot and in other cases it does not at all. So, without removing them, we really cannot rule them out.

 

Now, I think the first thing we have to do is to list the problems, the devices they impact, and whether or not the problems are intermittent. It's usually best to start with a specific location (say downstairs, garage, etc.) and try and figure out what is causing the problem there and then work our way to the whole house.

 

Can we start with a list of problems, devices they impact, and whether or not the problems are intermittent for a specific location?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[dkaleita]

I've spent the past few days experimenting and have found new locations for my six dual-band devices (four access points and two dual-band lamplincs) that appear to have completely solved all of my remaining communications issues.

 

Basically what I did was make sure that there was a dual-band device plugged into the same phase as, and in close proximity to, every device that was experiencing intermittant communication problems. Cooincidentally, when I was done I ended up with exactly one dual-band lamplinc and two access points plugged into each of the two power phases.

I know this is basically a "brute force" method, but it seeems to have worked!

 

Dave K.