Help with keypadlinc turning itself off.

[Illusion]

Edited with new findings

Background: I had a 6 button KPL (very old, first gen) fail the other day. I did lots of factory reseting and stuff and thought I had brought it back to life. But I would hit the top big on button and a few seconds later it would be off. Looking at the event viewer there was a fade down event after every time I hit the on button and the switch would fade itself off. Okay, never seen that before, but old switch. I yank that and put a new one in its place.

Disregard above. After extensive testing, I have determined that that old KPL is just wonky. Weird flashing lights after reset. Refuses to respond to key presses now.

This one I turn on and its indicator leds stay in the on position, but the ISY shows it as off instantly after I hit the button on. It shows it go on for a split second, then it shows status as off. (no load connected, just using as a controller). It was also turning off the load that is in the scene with the main button as the controller.

After lots of reset and restore work, playing with the toggle/non toggle settings, and updating the scene control type of the responder, I finally got the load to stay on, but the status of the KPL shows as off in the ISY. Now I begin to wonder if something similar was going on with the one I pulled out.

I grabbed an event viewer of me turning on the switch and there is too much there that I do not understand and I am hoping someone can look at that and offer a suggestion:

This is what happens as a result of me pressing the top on button:

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:17 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 56.CF.CE 00.00.01 CF 11 00    LTONRR (00)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [Std-Group   ] 56.CF.CE-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [56 CF CE 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [  56 CF CE 1]      DON   0

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [D2D-CMP 01C5] CTL [56 CF CE 1] [DON] op=is --> true

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [56 CF CE 1] [ST] [255] uom=100 prec=0

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [  56 CF CE 1]       ST 255 (uom=100 prec=0)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 56.CF.CE 00.01.01 CF 11 01    LTONRR (01)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [Std-Group   ] 56.CF.CE-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 56.CF.CE 51.12.25 40 11 01    LTONRR (01)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [Std-Cleanup ] 56.CF.CE-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=0, Hops Left=0

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [INST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [56 CF CE 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [  56 CF CE 1]      DON   1

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [D2D-CMP 01C5] CTL [56 CF CE 1] [DON] op=is --> true

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:18 AM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [56 CF CE 1] [ST] [1] uom=100 prec=0

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [  56 CF CE 1]       ST   1 (uom=100 prec=0)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 56.CF.CE 11.01.01 CF 06 00           (00)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [Std-Group   ] 56.CF.CE-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [INST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 56.CF.CE 11.01.01 C3 06 00           (00)

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [Std-Group   ] 56.CF.CE-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

Sun 02/13/2022 11:17:19 AM : [INST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.

There appears to be a second command from the switch in the event viewer from a single key press.

Also, while the ISY shows the KPL main button as off, the switch LEDs are showing it is still on, and indeed if I query it the ISY will update the status to on. Another press on will again cause it to show off in the ISY status.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Illusion

[Techman]

Is it possible that you have/had a program that's turning off the switch?.

Run a Link table Diagnostic | Compare links to see if you have and mismatched links.

 

[Illusion]

Oh sorry! I meant to put that in the original post. I stopped all programs from running and it still happens. I did a compare links and all are a match.

[Techman]

Are you sure you did a factory reset - Pull out the set button, then push it in and hold it until the KPL beeps, continue holding it in until the beeping stops. If done correctly the load should then turn on.

Then right click on the device and do a restore device.

[Illusion]

Oh Yes! I have done multiple factory resets. I have been working on this for 6 hours today. Been doing Insteon since the beginning. I have never seen anything like this. I am at a total loss.

[Techman]

Being that it happened to 2 KPLs the only other possibility is that you may have a bad power connection going to the KPL.

Possibly a bad or marginal neutral or hot lead to the KPL

Take a look at the ISY error log and also reboot the ISY if you haven't already done that.

What's the current version and date code of the current KPL?  

Have you recently added any new electronic devices to the same circuit that the KPL is on?

 

[stillwater]

I don't have any specific ideas for you but here is a story that may give you hope:

I noticed that a 2477s that controls a bathroom exhaust fan was acting strange -- a tap of the "on" part of the paddle when the switch was already on would turn it off.   This was true irrespective of program or scene membership,  The communications log showed only a DON message from the switch, as you would expect.  On a factory reset of the switch it would behave normally.  Restoring device from ISY would restore the weird behavior. 

 Deleting the device from ISY, doing a factory reset of the device, and linking to the device all over again fixed the problem (at least for now).

I don't know if there was something strange in the ISY links table or if the act of writing the links table to the switch was making it misbehave.  (Or something else...) 

[lilyoyo1]

20 hours ago, Illusion said:

Oh Yes! I have done multiple factory resets. I have been working on this for 6 hours today. Been doing Insteon since the beginning. I have never seen anything like this. I am at a total loss.

I'd remove the device and connect it to a pigtail and factory reset it. If it stays on then it's a problem with that location

[Illusion]

Techman. Hardware version is 8.1. Not sure about date code. Not an issue with hot or neutral connection. Keypad put on a pig tail (table top enclosure) and moved locations and voltage tested before coming to the forum.

Stillwater. That is interesting. This KPL has 125 links and is in dozens of programs so not super anxious to start over with it, especially now that I have it turning on the scene like it should. But if I cannot let this go, I may experiment with that.

lilyoyo1. Not location specific. KPL in table top enclosure and moved around...

[stillwater]

 

I am not positive but based on limited recent experience programs should still work as long as the added  device has the same name in ISY as the old one.    But yes if the ISY links table is the problem you'd have to manually add the re-added device to the scenes.   

Do you have a recent back-up from before the problem appeared?   Restoring ISY from that backup that and then restoring the KPL device from the ISY inks table could test whether there could be some problem in the ISY links table.   It would not be dispositive if the problem is caused by corrupting something in the KPL's internal program as  as a byproduct of restoring a valid link table to the device 

If you want to try removing and re-adding the device you could do a backup first and then if it doesn't turn out to fix the problem (before adding back all the scenes) you could just restore the system from backup and restore the device and you'd be back to where you are now. 

OH -- before doing anything more with the KPL  -- Did you try doing a factory reset of the PLM and restoring the PLM link table from the ISY?   Perhaps a corrupt PLM link table is the source of your problem.  

[Techman]

@Illusion

If you remove (delete) the KPL from the ISY any programs that are associated with the KPL will also have the KPL deleted from them. The programs will remain intact but it will show a null where the KPL was. You'll have to manually insert the KPL back into the programs.

Before you do anything, take a look at the "Buttons Toggle Mode" and make sure it set to "Toggle"

[stillwater]

@Techman I just checked.   You are  correct, at least mostly.   At least in one instance on 5.3.4. ISY did not delete the device from the program as listed.   The name was still there.  However the program did not run and the lines in the IF and Then sections needed to be updated and the program saved for it to work.  

[Illusion]

@stillwater Interesting idea to reset and restore the PLM. On the list of options now.

@Techman "Buttons Toggle Mode" setting makes no difference. Only setting it to Non Toggle OFF makes a difference in operation. With it set to Non Toggle Off, pressing the on button sets the status as off in the ISY without the weird on status for a flash. Non Toggle On, and Toggle both result in flash of on status, and then off status.

I do not know how I finally got it to stop turning the scene off so I am holding off making any more changes as it actually accomplishes the desired function of turning on the load in the scene. I have ordered another 6 button KPL and when it gets here I plan on additional experimentation where I can add as a new device.

[Techman]

@Illusion

If the new KPL that you have coming reacts the same then it's possible that the ISY link tables for that device somehow became corrupted. Your only option would be to delete it from the ISY and then add it back as a new device.

This assumes that you previously did a "Replace device" 

[Illusion]

All fixed.

New KPL arrived. Pigtailed it and added it as a new device and played around a good bit. Thought the group might be interested to know that it made no difference whether that main button was set as Toggle, Non Toggle On, or Non Toggle Off, it functioned the same in the ISY regardless. On turned it on, off turned it off. Other sub buttons worked as expected with toggle settings change.

Ran an event viewer on it, and it did not have the second command set seen in the problem KPL.

Solution was simply to remove the main button from the scene it was controlling, and add it back. I have never had a scene cause such behavior before. Sorry I did not think of it as a solution earlier. But way way easier than deleting and adding back new (again 125 links and lots of programs). But it does seem from this that the remove and start fresh would have indeed worked.

Thanks all for the feedback.