Help Wiring Insteon 6 Button Keypad to 3-Way Switch

[KHouse]

I apologize if this isn't the right place for this post.  Unfortunately with the Smarthome forum down now, I don't know where else to ask for help! 

I've got 2 normal "dumb" switches connected as 3-way, in a standard 3-way/traveler wire setup.

I wanted to change one of the switches (top of the stairs) to a 6 button Insteon keypad, and change the bottom switch to a regular Insteon switch. 

Looking for help on how to correctly wire the travelers (or not) to make this setup work.  I can presumably remove one of the travelers and just link the switches so it works like a 3-way?

I appreciate any help!

[dstanley]

Hopefully this will help!

 

2486D KeypadLinc Dimmer.pdfFetching info...

[Goose66]

Of course, those diagrams work great when you have a traditional 3-way wiring setup, but if something doesn't seem quite right (e.g., there's no red wires, the wire with power (line) comes into the same j-box as the the wire from the light (load), etc.) then post the details back and get help before proceeding if unsure.

[carealtor]

I find it helpful to think of it like this...  There will be one Insteon switch (regular or keypad, doesn't matter) that controls the load.  All the other switches are "virtual".  They can be anywhere.  They only need power.  The magic is in the linking, not the wiring.  So wire up a switch to the load and then get power to the other "virtual" switch(s), which is done by repurposing the old traveler if necessary.

Edited May 1, 2022 by carealtor

[KHouse]

  On 5/1/2022 at 3:38 PM, dstanley said:

Hopefully this will help!

 

2486D KeypadLinc Dimmer.pdf 1.36 MB · 2 downloads

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Thanks!  I'll take a look.

[KHouse]

  On 5/1/2022 at 4:16 PM, carealtor said:

I find it helpful to think of it like this...  There will be one Insteon switch (regular or keypad, doesn't matter) that controls the load.  All the other switches are "virtual".  They can be anywhere.  They only need power.  The magic is in the linking, not the wiring.  So wire up a switch to the load and then get power to the other "virtual" switch(s), which is done by repurposing the old traveler.

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That's sort of what I was thinking was the logical layout/install.

  On 5/1/2022 at 4:07 PM, Goose66 said:

Of course, those diagrams work great when you have a traditional 3-way wiring setup, but if something doesn't seem quite right (e.g., there's no red wires, the wire with power (line) comes into the same j-box as the the wire from the light (load), etc.) then post the details back and get help before proceeding if unsure.

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Will do, thanks.

[KHouse]

  On 5/1/2022 at 4:07 PM, Goose66 said:

Of course, those diagrams work great when you have a traditional 3-way wiring setup, but if something doesn't seem quite right (e.g., there's no red wires, the wire with power (line) comes into the same j-box as the the wire from the light (load), etc.) then post the details back and get help before proceeding if unsure.

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Here's what I'm looking at.

I'm thinking at the top of stairs:

(RED - top left) wire is the LINE to the 6 Button Insteon switch.

(ORANGE - bottom left) wire is also connected to the LINE? (or probably to NEUTRAL?)

(ORANGE - bottom right) wire goes to the LOAD on the 6 Button Insteon switch? (or capped, not needed?)

 

At the bottom of the stairs:

(ORANGE - bottom right) wire goes to the LINE on the Insteon toggle switch.

(ORANGE - bottom left) capped off and not connected to anything?

(ORANGE - top left) wire goes to the LOAD on the Insteon toggle switch.

 

Again appreciate the help!

Edited May 1, 2022 by KHouse

[KHouse]

I forgot to mention there is NO neutral wire at the top of the stairs box.  Not sure what to do about that connection/traveler to the bottom, or how that would work.

[MrBill]

  On 5/1/2022 at 5:01 PM, KHouse said:

I forgot to mention there is NO neutral wire at the top of the stairs box.  Not sure what to do about that connection/traveler to the bottom, or how that would work.

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You re-purpose the one travelers to send neutral to the top.  If the hot at the top is on a different circuit, you should also re-purpose the other traveler to send hot to the top (because you should not share a neutral between circuits unless it's a MWBC on a double pole or handle tied breaker pair.)

[Goose66]

Orange and red? What country are you in?

Also, do the switches have 4 lugs or 3 lugs for connections (not counting ground).

Also, are there no white (neutral) wires in the boxes not connected to the switches at all?

Edited May 1, 2022 by Goose66

[oberkc]

To get much more specific than the advice given carealtor, you will need to describe the wiring in each box, including the number of cables coming in, the number and color of conductors within each cable, and how each conductor is currently connected to the switch.

Depending upon the wiring, you may also need to access the fixture box. 

You WILL need neutral at both switch locations.

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by oberkc

[KHouse]

  On 5/1/2022 at 5:20 PM, MrBill said:

You re-purpose the one travelers to send neutral to the top.  If the hot at the top is on a different circuit, you should also re-purpose the other traveler to send hot to the top (because you should not share a neutral between circuits unless it's a MWBC on a double pole or handle tied breaker pair.)

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Ok, thanks.

  On 5/1/2022 at 5:27 PM, Goose66 said:

Orange and red? What country are you in?

Also, do the switches have 4 lugs or 3 lugs for connections (not counting ground).

Also, are there no white (neutral) wires in the boxes not connected to the switches at all?

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All the wiring in this house is mis-matched colors.  I feel like the electrician just used whatever left over wires they had when they did the initial install.  Seems all neutrals are white throughout the house, so at least they did that!

Both the top and bottom of the stairs switches are 3 lug.

There is no neutral wire at the top of the stairs.  At the bottom of the stairs there are (2) single/individual neutrals, capped off, not connected to anything or each other.

Pics attached of the bottom of stairs switch/box.

  On 5/1/2022 at 5:30 PM, oberkc said:

To get much more specific than the advice given carealtor, you will need to describe the wiring in each box, including the number of cables coming in, the number and color of conductors within each cable, and how each conductor is currently connected to the switch.

Depending upon the wiring, you may also need to access the fixture box. 

You WILL need neutral at both switch locations.

 

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Thanks.

Top of stairs has 3 wires coming in, all go to the switch as drawn in the image above.

Bottom of stairs has more wires coming in, but that's because this box has 3 total switches (the 3-way in question, plus one normal light switch, plus another normal light switch that is not used/capped off).  Pics attached for reference.

[Goose66]

Yikes! The only "normal" wiring I see there are the (seemingly) 14-2 and 12-2 romex (white and black pairs) coming in from the side and those are capped off. This really requires some electrical sleuthing.

You could disconnect the orange wires from the switches, flip on the breaker and see which of the six orange wires at the two switches remains at 120V vs ground (I am assuming the metal boxes are grounded). That would be the line from the panel. The two other orange wires on the switch containing the line would be the travelers to the other 3-way switch. I would suggest getting a long strand of wire and, with the breaker OFF, using a continuity check between the orange wires in the two switch boxes to verify the travelers. Then, the one wire left over between the two switches (not the travelers and not the line) is likely the power to the fixture (the load).

Then you just need a valid neutral in the box at the bottom of the stairs. You could do a continuity check to ground (again with the breakers OFF) to see if one of those white wires is still a valid neutral, but that may not be 100% accurate. Plus, as somebody else said, using a neutral from a different circuit may work, but its not to code, so you are going to need to pull these before you put your house up for sale.

Of course, all this assumes you have a mutlimeter.

BTW, you see the one orange wire in the picture(s) above that has the piece of black tape around it near its end. That's usually done by an electrician to signify that the wire is being used as hot (either line or load) despite the fact it is not a black wire.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Goose66

[KHouse]

Thanks for all the help folks.  Figured it out.

Basically needed to track down what's what (constant power vs. travelers vs. load to the light fixture).

Ended up using one of the travelers to bring down constant power from the upstairs switch to downrstairs switch, one of the travelers to bring up neutral from the downstairs switch to the upstairs switch, and the rest kind of comes together.

Works great.  Now to program the 6 button.

Thanks again everyone!

Edited May 1, 2022 by KHouse