Interesting problem

[mitch236]

I have a Scene setup to control my porch lights as well as my tree lights and another light. Last night, I turned on my porch lights by their local switch (which is part of a "porch light" Scene to connect 4 Switchlinc's together). The "Outside Lights" Scene is controlled by a KPL button. Once I turned on the porch light, my system became unstable, giving me alot of error messages such as "Can't connect to device "Porch Light". When I turned all the lights off by the KPL and then back on with the KPL, everything returned to normal.

 

So what I have is a Scene within a Scene with the KPL controlling a large Scene (with the Porch Scene included) and the individual porch Switchlinc's controlling a smaller "Porch" Scene (BTW, I had to include all 4 Switchlinc's into the KPL Scene because the Switchlinc's act as a Responder in that Scene whereas they are Controllers in the Porch Scene).

 

Is there a better way to setup the Scenes so I don't have instability?

 

 

I hope this all made sense. I know its confusing and it is early but I want to work this out. I'm sure I made a mistake in creating Scene's.

[IndyMike]

Hello Mitch,

 

From your description, I can't see that you have violated any rules with your "scene within a scene". I have numerous examples of this in my home, including a whole house scene that encompasses most of my devices.

 

I'm hoping that you may be using a dimmable CFL in one of your Switchlincs (porch light perhaps). If so, it's possible that the scene on level or ramp rate is different than your KPL scene.

 

Dimmable CFL's like to be turned on quickly and at full brightness. After they have stabilized (temperature and frequency) you can dim them down (30% in my experience). They will generate more noise in the dimmed condition.

 

Check your ramp and level setting between the two scenes and at the device itself. If you don't find any differences (or aren't using dimmable CFL's) please post back and describe your scene devices and loads.

 

IM

[mitch236]

The only thing I can see is that there are four SwitchLinc's in the Porch Scene and three of them are dimmers and one is a relay. On the dimmers, I have the ramp rate at minimum (0.1 sec).

 

In the Porch Scene, all the SwitchLinc's are set as Controllers where in the larger Outdoor Scene, they are Responders.

 

 

It happened again last night. There must be something wrong with the way I setup my porch scene. Maybe I should link the four SwitchLinc's the way they would be linked if I didn't have the ISY?

[Sub-Routine]

Is sounds like you have the switches configured correctly. Do you see a lot of activity in the Event Viewer when you use the local switch?

 

Rand

 

The only thing I can see is that there are four SwitchLinc's in the Porch Scene and three of them are dimmers and one is a relay. On the dimmers, I have the ramp rate at minimum (0.1 sec).

 

In the Porch Scene, all the SwitchLinc's are set as Controllers where in the larger Outdoor Scene, they are Responders.

 

 

It happened again last night. There must be something wrong with the way I setup my porch scene. Maybe I should link the four SwitchLinc's the way they would be linked if I didn't have the ISY?

[mitch236]

There may be another issue. I didn't mention that the Porch lights are running on a program that turns them on at sunset and off at 9pm. So I wrote the program differently. First I seperated the program into two seperate programs. One to turn the lights on, the other to turn them off. However, in the program to turn them off I wrote the conditions this way:

 

If

Status 'Porch' is On

And(

Status 'KPLB' is Off

And Status 'KPLC' is Off

and Status 'KPL Main' is Off

)

And Time is 9:05:00

 

Then

Set 'Porch' Off

[Sub-Routine]

That program should only be a problem at 9:05 PM. And then it should only run once.

 

If you remove 'Porch' from the scene that it is in as a controller what happens when you switch it On manually?

 

There may be another issue. I didn't mention that the Porch lights are running on a program that turns them on at sunset and off at 9pm. So I wrote the program differently. First I seperated the program into two seperate programs. One to turn the lights on, the other to turn them off. However, in the program to turn them off I wrote the conditions this way:

 

If

Status 'Porch' is On

And(

Status 'KPLB' is Off

And Status 'KPLC' is Off

and Status 'KPL Main' is Off

)

And Time is 9:05:00

 

Then

Set 'Porch' Off

[mitch236]

I haven't tried that since I set it up right from the start to be in a group. I have four porch lights and all have their oun SwitchLinc. I wanted them to operate as a 4-way so I put them all in a Scene and made all four SwitchLinc's Controllers. I can try tonight but I would think that if I removed the Porch Main from the remainder of the Porch Scene, it would operate individually.

 

I may have confused the issue because I was calling my Porch light by one name when in fact, I was referring to the whole Scene. So I guess you are asking if I remove the Porch Scene from the larger Scene, would I still get errors? I can try that too!

 

I wonder if I were to give temporary permission to log on to my ISY, maybe you could look around at my programming and find the problem?

[Sub-Routine]

No, don't remove Porch Main from the larger scene.

 

By removing Porch Main from Porch Scene we can determine if it gets busy trying to contact the other members of the scene (since it is a controller) or if it just gets busy whenever you locally press it.

 

If the first then something is mucked in the scene.

 

If the later then the switch is wacky, either because of it's load or because of the switch itself. I doubt if it is the load because the KPL can control it.

 

I doubt if it is in your programming but if you like I can log in and look. Use the email button on this post to send me the address. Change your login to admin/admin please.

 

Rand

 

I haven't tried that since I set it up right from the start to be in a group. I have four porch lights and all have their oun SwitchLinc. I wanted them to operate as a 4-way so I put them all in a Scene and made all four SwitchLinc's Controllers. I can try tonight but I would think that if I removed the Porch Main from the remainder of the Porch Scene, it would operate individually.

 

I may have confused the issue because I was calling my Porch light by one name when in fact, I was referring to the whole Scene. So I guess you are asking if I remove the Porch Scene from the larger Scene, would I still get errors? I can try that too!

 

I wonder if I were to give temporary permission to log on to my ISY, maybe you could look around at my programming and find the problem?

[mitch236]

Maybe my problem is with the way I built the Porch Scene. I made each of the four SwitchLinc's a Controller in the Scene. Is that correct?

[IndyMike]

Hello Mitch,

 

In a word - NO.

 

You are not violating anything by having four controllers within a scene.

 

Maybe my problem is with the way I built the Porch Scene. I made each of the four SwitchLinc's a Controller in the Scene. Is that correct?

 

Please answer the following:

 

1) What type of load is attached to each of the four switches?

2) Is your relay unit a V.35?

3) Do any of your fixtures have photo-electric cells (light sensors)?

4) Rand's question from above - do you see a lot of Insteon communication when you activate the "Porch Light" You can view Insteon activity addressed to the ISY/PLM in the event viewer (Rand linked to instructions above). Another method to get a feel for total activity is to watch the led on a lamplinc or Accesspoint. For a four unit scene, flashing of the led for over a couple seconds would be excessive.

 

The reason for questions above are we are trying to separate electrical noise from communication/programming problems.

[mitch236]

1. Load is CFL bulb on each

2. The relays are all v2.C

3. No

4. I'll check that now!

 

Thanks!!!

[mitch236]

Ok, I would have to say yes, there is alot of traffic to turn on four lights. But it seems the lights turn on just fine but then it seems that the ISY also goes into the Climate module and has some traffic there. I do have a condition about light value from the Climate module in the program to turn on the Porch lights. Could that be a problem?

 

Here is a copy of the Events-Log:

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:04 PM : [ B BE D3 1] DON 0

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:04 PM : [ B BB 89 1] ST 255

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:04 PM : [ 13 3E 67 1] ST 255

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:04 PM : [ B BE D3 1] ST 255

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:04 PM : [ B BB 7B 1] ST 255

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 5] -7000.000000 Weather - Temperature Rate = -0.7 °F

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 6] 660000.000000 Weather - Humidity = 66 %

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 12] 60000.000000 Weather - Wind Average Speed = 6 mph

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 13] 80000.000000 Weather - Wind Direction = SSE

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 18] 43000.000000 Weather - Light = 4.3

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:12:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 19] -91000.000000 Weather - Light Rate = -9.1

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 1] 642000.000000 Weather - Temperature = 64.2 °F

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 5] -6000.000000 Weather - Temperature Rate = -0.6 °F

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 7] 30000.000000 Weather - Humidity Rate = 3

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 11] 30000.000000 Weather - Wind Speed = 3 mph

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 12] 50000.000000 Weather - Wind Average Speed = 5 mph

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 13] 60000.000000 Weather - Wind Direction = ESE

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 14] 70000.000000 Weather - Wind Average Directi = SE

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 18] 40000.000000 Weather - Light = 4

 

Mon 03/01/2010 06:13:46 PM : [MOD 2 2 1 19] -78000.000000 Weather - Light Rate = -7.8

[mitch236]

BTW, once I removed the statement about Light value in the program, there was alot less traffic. In fact only the four commands were listed. Maybe its the Climate module?

[IndyMike]

Mitch,

 

Thank you for the replies. I am not proficient with the Climate module (I don't have the module) but understood this to be network based. As such, I would not expect it to cause Insteon communication problems as you described previously. I will, however, defer to the ISY masters in this regard.

 

The log that you posted indicates that the ISY is receiving the communication from you SWL when turned on. The remaining ST entries are, I believe, the ISY predicting the status of the scene based on the communication. In other words, there is only one communication and the ISY is showing the status that "should" be attained in the scene.

 

Please try the following tests using the ISY diagnostic "scene test". You can find the scene test under the menu item Tools\diagnostics\scene test. There's a description of the test here: Scene Test

 

1)Try the scene test on your Porch scene with all of the devices off. Hopefully everything will pass.

2)Turn your devices on using your SWL "mini scene" and retry the scene test. If we've both lead clean lives, you'll get some failures here. I'm mostly depending on you here since my life can't be construed as clean.

3)Turn the devices off, then back on via your KPL. Retry the scene test again.

 

Please report by your results. Hopefully we can come up with an explanation to fit the data.

 

IM

[mitch236]

Here are the test results with the Scene Off:

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:53:52 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 19 13 00 06

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:53:53 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0B.BE.D3 11.CB.8E 61 13 19 LTOFFRR(19)

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:53:53 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0B.BE.D3-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:53:53 PM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 15

 

----- Porch Link Test Results -----

[succeeded] Porch Front Door (B BE D3 1)

[Failed] Porch Living Room (B BB 7B 1)

[Failed] Porch Theater (13 3E 67 1)

[Failed] Porch Dining Room (B BB 89 1)

----- Porch Link Test Results -----

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:00 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.19 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

 

Scene On:

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:39 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 19 13 00 06

 

----- Porch Link Test Results -----

[Failed] Porch Front Door (B BE D3 1)

[Failed] Porch Living Room (B BB 7B 1)

[Failed] Porch Theater (13 3E 67 1)

[Failed] Porch Dining Room (B BB 89 1)

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:44 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 13.3E.67 11.CB.8E 61 13 19 LTOFFRR(19)

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:44 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][13.3E.67-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

----- Porch Link Test Results -----

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:44 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.19 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:46 PM : CLI-WBug: Connecting to http://datafeed.weatherbug.com/GetXml.a ... UnitType=0

 

Mon 03/01/2010 07:54:47 PM : CLI-WBug: Successfully Processed WBug Response

[mitch236]

BTW, the lights came on and off just fine!

[mitch236]

One other observation. When I am writing to the devices (including the KPL), it won't write unless I turn everything linked to the KPL off. Weird!!

[IndyMike]

Not exactly the night and day results that I had hoped for. I would have liked to have seen a significant difference between the on and off conditions. We might have been able to attribute the difference to the CFL's generating noise.

 

Are these results typical for other scenes or is this a problem area? Are all of these SWL on one circuit, or spread across multiple?

[IndyMike]

Sorry,

 

Saw the following post after I had replied. This may actually make sense if you are turning on noisy loads with your KPL (CFLs).

 

One other observation. When I am writing to the devices (including the KPL), it won't write unless I turn everything linked to the KPL off. Weird!!

 

Please try the scene test again with all of the KPL scenes off. If you get good results, you might try turning on certain loads and rerunning the scene test to get a feel for the noise environment.

[Sub-Routine]

The Weather module receives data at the interval you have specified. Data is only sent if it has changed. So what you are seeing has nothing to do with your switch and the scene or a program. You can disable the weather module or set the polling interval to a larger value to reduce the data received.

 

So when you pressed the switch and captured it in your Event Viewer everything worked correctly? No 'Cannot Communicate With...'?

 

Rand

[mitch236]

The Weather module receives data at the interval you have specified. Data is only sent if it has changed. So what you are seeing has nothing to do with your switch and the scene or a program. You can disable the weather module or set the polling interval to a larger value to reduce the data received.

 

So when you pressed the switch and captured it in your Event Viewer everything worked correctly? No 'Cannot Communicate With...'?

 

Rand

 

I had no error messages during those tests. It seems the only problem area I have is with the Porch Lights. All of the lamps in my house are CFL (except for the low voltage lighting which I've disabled until I can get the high voltage network stable).

 

I wonder if I linked the four Switchlinc's correctly. I found each device seperately and removed all links. Then I created a Scene where each of the four SwitchLinc's are Controllers. I want the four SwitchLinc's to act like a hardwired 5-way installation. Maybe I should have linked them independently of the ISY? I ask because when I turn one of the devices On with the software interface, it only turns on the one device (instead of all four). If I turn on one switch (at the Device), it turns on all four SwitchLinc's.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi mitch236,

 

Yes, I think you linked them correctly.

 

Controlling one switch in a scene does only control that one switch. Otherwise you could see all four switches being controlled when you only want to control one.

 

I am most curious if when you physically press 'Porch Main' it always goes into a busy state and disrupts your other Insteon communications.

 

Rand

[mitch236]

Rand, I did a little experiment from my office (I'm not at home). I opened the Event Viewer and then turned on each of the porch lights one at a time. The first two turned on fine with only one line of info (I'm guessing that's one hop). On the third light I saw this (this includes the first two lights):

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:14 AM : [ B BE D3 1] ST 255

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:33 AM : [ B BB 7B 1] ST 255

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:39 AM : [ 13 3E 67 1] ST 255

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:40 AM : [MOD 2 2 1 11] 50000.000000 Weather - Wind Speed = 5 mph

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:40 AM : [MOD 2 2 1 13] 90000.000000 Weather - Wind Direction = S

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:40 AM : [MOD 2 2 1 18] 25000.000000 Weather - Light = 2.5

 

Tue 03/02/2010 11:15:40 AM : [MOD 2 2 1 19] 22000.000000 Weather - Light Rate = 2.2

 

 

And recieved an error message about not being able to communicate with the Device.

 

Perhaps the porch lights somehow activiate the Climate module causing too much traffic?

[Brian H]

What interval is the Weather Module set to get data?

Mine by default was every 60 seconds.

I turned mine off when we where having the 1941 date thing along with the NTP Automatic Time Sync. I never turned it back on after updating to 2.7.12.

[mitch236]

What interval is the Weather Module set to get data?

Mine by default was every 60 seconds.

I turned mine off when we where having the 1941 date thing along with the NTP Automatic Time Sync. I never turned it back on after updating to 2.7.12.

 

The default. But after seeing the viewer data, I changed it to 300 sec. Hopefully that will eliminate alot of traffic.

 

I think I am figuring out where my problems are. It seems that ONLY the SwitchLinc Relay v.2C is failing. I have four of them and three are always the problem area. Is that a known issue with that version or should I call Smarthome and see if they will replace them?