Resolution to my PLM/ISY communication errors

[Guest]

Frank,

I have just posted a general query regarding my intended upgrade / transition to ISY from a "full suite" of X-10 components. I have been using a Comstar/EVM driven system for 10 years. As noted in my new on (19 Sept) posting, I plan to upgrade based on the general communications (PLC) protocol (bi-directional error and confirmation of signal delivery), and internet capabilities supplied by ISY.

Thank you for all of your observations relalated to your system and problems/resolutions. Can you provide me with any further X-10 to Insteon comparisons especially related to communications betterment using ISY as opposed to X-10. Most of my problems center on spokes that used to work and are now inoperative.

I have tried to meticulously add filters to new or suspect devices (PC's, TVs, etc.). I have also tried moving the PLM connector (interface) from Comstar to the powerline (it has been 1' from the main breaker panel (basement) for most of its life.

Are the number of X-10 devices typically causing signal degrading issues, and as I said in my initial posting a boosterlinck caused "bizzare" problems (wrong devices responding, bad device issues not improved, sporadic (inconsistent) results, and general disappointment. What about "dual channel" (RF) performance. Does this aid in overall "hard wired" devices (in wall and plug-n) communications? I have not purchased any Insteon devices (except for 6-button KPL now functioning in the kitchen).

You apparantly have extensive experience (as I do) with X-10 /PLC systems and their functions/capabilities.

thanks in advance,

PD New Hampshire

any other postings regarding all of the above are more than welcome.

[evilpete]

I solved my communication problems by installing a extra circuit near the main panel, I ran 220 to a 4 gang box and installed two 110 outlets ( one on each branch/phase ) along with a SignaLinc Phase Coupler.

Then I moved my ISY99i and PLM onto this outlet so to allow the strongest signal from the PLM to enter the panel on both phases.

 

next I placed an INSTEON Access Point in my detached garage along with a 2nd Access Point in the house closest to the garage.

[JMC]

I'm a new user of an ISY/PLM and nor surprising I've encountered many of the communication problems posted by others.

 

My system is also a migration from X-10 that has been installed for over a dozen years. Part of that system included a Challenger C120 X10 bridge/blocker which is supposed to bridge the two phases in the house and also block external X-10 signals and electrical noise.

 

My PLM is a 2413S, which is a dual-band PLM so I've been disregarding recommendations to "stack" an Access Point on it. The 2413 doesn't have a pass-through socket anyway. I'm still experimenting with the best places for the two Access Points I have. My system is all on one floor and spans about 3,000 sq ft.

 

From what I've been able to determine so far the send function of this PLM seems to be working better than the receive side. If I toggle a SwitchLinc or a button on a KeypadLinc the ISY fails to see it about half the time. If I then send a query to the same unit though, proper communication resumes right away. One KeypadLinc is a frequent source of errors though and I'm thinking of swapping it and another KeypadLinc to see if the problem remains with the location or travels with the device.

 

Ironically, the same PLM receives X-10 signals just fine but other X-10 devices don't receive from it well at all.

[aughtago]

Great thread, has given me ideas of things to try. Also generates questions. I am primarily having comm issues with 2 V1.1 keypadLinc relays between them and the other isteon as well as the ISY. My keypadlinc dimmer was replaced last year and is v5.9 and works flawlessly, but is located on a different circuit in a different part of the house.

 

I have a signalinc phase coupler installed right at the panel (from x-10 days), I have installed many filterlincs and tried unplugging things, can't find the source of signal sink. My ISY is on first floor about 40'-50' of wire between it and panel.

 

Would the dual level accesspoints have any benifit over my old signalinc?

 

Do the insteon V1.1 keypadlincs have any issues or is more likely location, location, location?

 

I have also considered moving the ISY closer to the panel, but I have only 2 choices, 1 is right next to my PC that is on the first floor right above the panel- I worry about the PC causing issues even though it is on a filterlinc. The other location is right near the panel, but that is in my woodshop, so dust might become an issue with ISY.

[tedbusen]

I have been having communication problems for the past couple of months. System has been in place for years.

Tried all trouble shooting ideas found in the forum.

Found some little things, but nothing really fixed the communication issues.

Did the filters, checked the connections, etc.

I have about 2500 sq feet, split level (4) ranch. Longest run is about 90 feet from the PLM.

 

Then I read the posts in this topic about putting the Access Points close to the PLM and the Circuit Breaker Panel.

Completed resolved my issue. I have no timeouts now even on the most remote devices.

I think what really happened is that my Access Points had not been synced or lost sync.

I may have had a little helper remove one of them without my knowledge.

Moving them close to the PLM and the Circuit Breaker Panel and resyncing the 2 Access Points seems to have solved the problem.

Sometimes it's the little things that get you.

I recommend as one of your first trouble shooting items is to verify the Access Points are installed correctly and synced. The Status lights need to the correct color based on the device type you have.

 

Thanks for all the ideas and hard work

Happy Camper

[Bert2013]

Thanks for the nice writeup, tedbusen.

 

So I assume the communication errors you are referring to are things like "Cannot Communicate With ... (nn nn nn 1). Please check connections"

I get them also...

 

So why does this need to be fixed with FilterLinc's?

Why does the retry logic and the repeating logic of Insteon take care of it?

 

I have some questions on this repeating logic.

Does Insteon's repeating also include repeating on the electric wires (in addition to the RF repeating)?

Does Insteon's limit of 3 repeats apply to "how many times each device will repeat" or to "how many devices will repeat the signal"? I hope it is the former.

 

As an additional issue, I get comm errors mostly while trying to connect to a RemoteLinc 2 which obviously is not affected by noice on the electical wires.

 

Thanks.

[f_richey]

The communication trouble shooting guide above talks about stacking or piggy-backing an additional AccessPoint on top of the PLM to improve network communications.  How can you stack these devices since neither of them have a receptical to power another device?

[LeeG]

That was written back in the days when the PLM had a passthru outlet on its face and WAS NOT Dual Band.  Now that 2413S PLMs are Dual Band (which is why no passthru outlet) there is no need to stack a PLM with what is now called a Range Extender.

[terrylund]

I have a pair of 2475SDB In-LineLink Relay (Dual-Band) devices installed in a plastic electrical box which is within 3-5' of the breaker panel in my basement. Each device is on the opposite side of my 220 legs. Are these devices effectively operating like a pair of Access Points, in terms of helping improve reliability of communication, as discussed in some of the information in this thread?

 

I have a motion sensor installed within ~3' of these In-LineLink devices but it often has the flashing LED which (I believe) indicates a missing ACK. 

 

I configure the motion sensors in my office, where it is easier/faster to access the ISY admin console (i.e.add them as new devices then set the Options for the mode of operation I prefer and the timeout setting etc), and then I install them in the basement for normal operation.

 

Does that mean the motion sensor will get a set of links when it's first setup, and then when it's in the basement, it has trouble communicating with one of those links? I'm trying to understand why I would get the flashing LED when it's so close to the two dual band devices.

 

I am also trying to understand if I should expect any improvement in overall communications around the 1500 ft sq ranch home with two access points installed near the power panel compared to my current arrangement with the dual band devices. I get some more or less random ISY communication errors, but a couple of weeks ago something was wrong because the ISY had trouble querying any hardwired devices, but the issues totally went away in a day or two, so I haven't pinned down what was wrong then.

[Xathros]

In theory the 2 DB devices should be bridging your legs.  Check the manual for one of them and see if it describes a beacon (or 4 tap) test.  If so, run the test and verify that the other is receiving and on the opposite leg. 

 

Some dual band devices appear to have vary directional RF broadcast patterns.  While you motion sensor may be close, it may just be in the wrong direction relative to the dual band devices.  Access Points (range extenders) may be better for omni-directional coverage.

 

-Xathros

[stusviews]

All of my Motion Sensors (4) blink more than once, but the responder turns on immediately (scene, not program). I believe that the MS repeats its On signal. BTW, as with your experience, when i set them up in my work area, they flash once.

 

In addition to dual-band devices, I always use and recommend a hard-wired coupler when possible. Although the SignaLinc does not repeat signals and is not RF capable, there is no doubt about the signal bridging the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply.

[terrylund]

In theory the 2 DB devices should be bridging your legs.  Check the manual for one of them and see if it describes a beacon (or 4 tap) test.  If so, run the test and verify that the other is receiving and on the opposite leg. 

TL>The manual does describe a 4-tap test, but the devices don't seem to respond as described (there is no beeping noise), so I'll contact Insteon about this. The two devices are within a few feet of the breaker panel and I know they are wired on adjacent breakers so they are on opposite sides of the 220v supply.

 

Some dual band devices appear to have vary directional RF broadcast patterns.  While you motion sensor may be close, it may just be in the wrong direction relative to the dual band devices.  Access Points (range extenders) may be better for omni-directional coverage.

TL>I have contacted Insteon to see if they will provide any information about RF broadcast patterns

 

-Xathros

[hlaiii]

My ISY-994i system had been running flawlessly, and then started having multiple errors, with lights not lighting as per schedule.  The wife noted around the same time that one of the ToggleLincs had begun acting odd (the light would flicker when the switch/light was turned on).   Low and behold, replacing that switch and everything went back to normal (functioning).

 

Now months later, a bunch of errors again when bringing up the Administrative Console.  I probably have 40 modules of various uses around the house.  I guess I need to go on a hunt to see if there is another module which has begun malfunctioning, and inspect all the access points for proper connectivity.  Fun. 

[stusviews]

That's a possible PLM problem. PLMs have been failing at about 2 or more years. The date code is 4 digits on the white label on the back of the PLM, for example, 1531. What is your PLM date code?

[hlaiii]

I have two ISY-994i installations (my home and my mother's home).  Hers was installed in 2014, and the PLM went dead last year (2015), and was replaced by Smarthome at no charge.  

 

My installation went dead in 2013, and the PLM was replaced at my cost, at that time.  I am sure that you are going to get a chuckle, but in order to get the PLM close to the electrical panel in the basement, it is located and plugged in behind a large multi-leaf desk, from which it is going to be a pain to extract the PLM.  Sad to say, I just ordered another 2413S with 2-day delivery.  If I am going to pull this one out, I guess I am going to replace it with the new one.  

 

I will let you know what I extract from behind the desk, when the new one gets installed.  I previously ordered the replacement capacitor components from the parts list provided in another thread.  My plan was to get the older (dead one) updated with new components, and keep that at the ready.  So much for that plan.  I guess I can order another set of capacitors and have TWO devices ready and waiting for failures.  I just have to PULL out the soldering iron.

[Teken]

I have two ISY-994i installations (my home and my mother's home).  Hers was installed in 2014, and the PLM went dead last year (2015), and was replaced by Smarthome at no charge.  

 

My installation went dead in 2013, and the PLM was replaced at my cost, at that time.  I am sure that you are going to get a chuckle, but in order to get the PLM close to the electrical panel in the basement, it is located and plugged in behind a large multi-leaf desk, from which it is going to be a pain to extract the PLM.  Sad to say, I just ordered another 2413S with 2-day delivery.  If I am going to pull this one out, I guess I am going to replace it with the new one.  

 

I will let you know what I extract from behind the desk, when the new one gets installed.  I previously ordered the replacement capacitor components from the parts list provided in another thread.  My plan was to get the older (dead one) updated with new components, and keep that at the ready.  So much for that plan.  I guess I can order another set of capacitors and have TWO devices ready and waiting for failures.  I just have to PULL out the soldering iron.

 

For the benefit of the forum members when you receive the new 2413S PLM. Would you please let us know what the hardware revision and production date is listed on the rear sticker. Also indicate what the ISY Series Controller notes as the firmware in use is when asked via the help tab.

[hlaiii]

Well, I received the new 2413S PLM on Thursday via 2-day shipping by UPS.

 

The old one is V2.1, with a date code 1543.  If that is a manufacture date near the end of 2015, I guess that was not that long ago - just a little over a year.

 

The new one is V2.2, with a date code 1635.

 

Spent about an hour and a half - lots of battery devices (water sensors, TriggerLincs).  Everything now back to working order.

[Teken]

Could you please list the 2413S PLM firmware as noted under the help tab.

 

 

=========================

 

The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular.

[hlaiii]

Sorry about that.  Under the PLM Info Status, it is v9E.

 

Of course I am using Firmware v.4.5.4 in my ISY as described under the Help tab.  

[Teken]

Sorry about that. Under the PLM Info Status, it is v9E.

 

Of course I am using Firmware v.4.5.4 in my ISY as described under the Help tab.

Much Thanks for that piece of information. I am however sadden to read your v2.1 PLM failed under the two year mark. ☹️️

 

Yours and four others with similar hardware revision and production date also failed under the two year mark!

 

I have to gather the *upgraded* capacitors in these units still require a component selection review.

 

One would hope one day UDI could start to offer their own PLM. Which has been absent further progress or release date info. ☹️️

[hlaiii]

Uh, yes.  I just looked at the defunct PLM.  I put a sticker on it indicating that I originally installed it on February 24, 2016.  It lasted just under 10 months.  Given the hassle of having to replace these due to unanticipated failures, I would gladly pay double the price for a reliable, long-functioning PLM.  

[G W]

Uh, yes. I just looked at the defunct PLM. I put a sticker on it indicating that I originally installed it on February 24, 2016. It lasted just under 10 months. Given the hassle of having to replace these due to unanticipated failures, I would gladly pay double the price for a reliable, long-functioning PLM.

Is it still under warranty?

 

Gary Funk (Joke removed at the request of one user)

[hlaiii]

Smarthome Support is closed today (Sunday), so I will call tomorrow.  

 

Seems like since I paid out of pocket (my pocket) for the last two devices, this one should be replaced under warranty.  The warranty is 2 years for this particular device.  Ten months of proper functioning, only to fail suddenly is a bit suboptimal.

[Teken]

Smarthome Support is closed today (Sunday), so I will call tomorrow.  

 

Seems like since I paid out of pocket (my pocket) for the last two devices, this one should be replaced under warranty.  The warranty is 2 years for this particular device.  Ten months of proper functioning, only to fail suddenly is a bit suboptimal.

 

I would agree but the device is still under the 2 year warranty so get that squared away and have another on hand for back up. If you could please follow up with the forum members and let us know what you receive that would be greatly appreciated. I don't expect you to connect the new (replacement) unit to determine the firmware as the other is now in place.

 

Plus, more than likely it will show a v9E firmware anyways as seen on more than twenty I have read about in the last year or so.

 

NOTE: What I am seeing in my tracking sheet is hardware revision 2.1 continues to have hardware failures. As of this writing I haven't seen or read of hardware 2.2 having the same issues. But then again most of them are under 12 months of deployment use.

 

I supposed in the next 24 months we shall see what the longevity is for this rev 2.2!

[hlaiii]

The warranty replacement PLM just arrived.  It is also v2.2, with a date code of 1635.

 

The only "downside" with having an extra PLM on hand, is that you are stuck with the current technology (and firmware version), while it sits in a box.  And for whatever warranty I have left on the one in the box, the warranty clock continues to tick.  Oh well.