Device Not Sending Signal?

[sfhutchi]

I have a simple program

If
       Control 'Family Room Fan' is switched Off

Then
       Set 'Breakfast Area Light' Off
       Set 'Family Room Light' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

I tried this with an 'off' and a 'fast off'. Neither would work. In fact the program was never initiated.

 

I looked further and the ISY could easily query the device (Switchlinc Relay), and could reliably control it. I then tried to see if the ISY would see when I changed states (on to off). It doesn't.

 

Is it possible that this device isn't reporting the local controls? Has anyone seen this?

[Mark Sanctuary]

Believe it or not that is an Insteon communication issue. I had one doing this and by moving my Accesspoints closer to my circuit panel it started working again.

[Michel Kohanim]

sfhutchi,

 

What kind of device is this? If it's a switch type (SWL, CL, RL, KPL), please try "Restore Device" on it and let me know if that solves the problem.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I have a simple program

If
       Control 'Family Room Fan' is switched Off

Then
       Set 'Breakfast Area Light' Off
       Set 'Family Room Light' Off

Else
  - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

I tried this with an 'off' and a 'fast off'. Neither would work. In fact the program was never initiated.

 

I looked further and the ISY could easily query the device (Switchlinc Relay), and could reliably control it. I then tried to see if the ISY would see when I changed states (on to off). It doesn't.

 

Is it possible that this device isn't reporting the local controls? Has anyone seen this?

[MikeB]

I have a KPL that the ISY-26 wasn't getting realtime status updates for. I tried a 'restore devices', but it did not fix it.

 

However, I deleted the KPL, then re-added it, and it started working fine.

[sfhutchi]

What kind of device is this? If it's a switch type (SWL, CL, RL, KPL), please try "Restore Device" on it and let me know if that solves the problem.

 

The device is a SWL. It is in a box with a KPL (tied to same neutral and hot). The KPL commands are seen very reliably by the ISY.

 

I just tried a device restore (twice actually), but no difference.

[Michel Kohanim]

sfhutchi,

 

For ISY to sense button presses, there has to be a link for that device in the PLM. If your SWL can control everything else it's linked to but ISY does not hear it being activated/deactivated, then here are the possible causes:

1. You have a very old SWL (below v.24)

2. You have a defective PLM (not likely if everything else works)

3. You have reached the maximum number of links allowed in your PLM (have you used our calculator?)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

What kind of device is this? If it's a switch type (SWL, CL, RL, KPL), please try "Restore Device" on it and let me know if that solves the problem.

 

The device is a SWL. It is in a box with a KPL (tied to same neutral and hot). The KPL commands are seen very reliably by the ISY.

 

I just tried a device restore (twice actually), but no difference.

[MikeB]

I just tried a device restore (twice actually), but no difference.

 

If it's not too much of a pain, try removing the device from the ISY, then re-adding it in. Then test.

[sfhutchi]

The SWLR is v.2B

I had previously used the link calculator and it didn't look like I was at the limit yet. I'll try to find the link and do it again.

 

I also haven't tried linking that switch to anything else... so I'll try that too.

 

If all else fails, I'll try removing it and relinking it to the ISY.

[sfhutchi]

Okay... Just tried linking this fan with another device (virtual 3-way) and it works well. ISY created the links and they both can control each other.

 

I will now try to completely remove the device and re-link.

[Michel Kohanim]

sfhutchi,

 

Thanks for the update. What version of ISY are you running?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Okay... Just tried linking this fan with another device (virtual 3-way) and it works well. ISY created the links and they both can control each other.

 

I will now try to completely remove the device and re-link.

[sfhutchi]

I'm running 2.4.15... but I can't say if it has always been this way because I didn't previously have a program that was triggered from this device.

 

I removed the device completely and have now re-linked it. The same program seems to work well. Not sure what happened, but everything is working fine now.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi sfhutchi,

 

Thanks so very much for the update. It may have been "yardman 49's" bug where we did not completely wipe out the device database for the device linked.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I'm running 2.4.15... but I can't say if it has always been this way because I didn't previously have a program that was triggered from this device.

 

I removed the device completely and have now re-linked it. The same program seems to work well. Not sure what happened, but everything is working fine now.

[yardman 49]

Hi sfhutchi,

 

Thanks so very much for the update. It may have been "yardman 49's" bug where we did not completely wipe out the device database for the device linked.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I'm running 2.4.15... but I can't say if it has always been this way because I didn't previously have a program that was triggered from this device.

 

I removed the device completely and have now re-linked it. The same program seems to work well. Not sure what happened, but everything is working fine now.

 

Hello all:

 

Yes, that is exactly the problem that I had with one of my KPLs: you could control Insteon devices with it, you could query it, but the secondaries were not reporting their actual status to the ISY. You could press a button off and on until the cows came home and never see a change in the ISY GUI.

 

"Restore Device" on verison 2.4.15 seemed to temporarily fix one button, but not all the buttons.

 

The only thing that fixed it was to Remove the KPL from the ISY database, and then add it back in. Even and entire network "Restore Devices" did not help

 

I think that this imay be a bug when "Restore Device" cannot fix a problem like this.

 

Best wishes,

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi All,

 

In all likelihood, this is related to scenes that were origianlly created using PLM 52 and with versions below 2.4.6. We are investigating the possible causes of the issue that you have to completely remove a device from ISY to have all the links removed. Will keep you posted with the results.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[yardman 49]

Hello Michel:

 

FYI: I started with the PLM 52 and ISY version 2.4.12

 

 

Best wishes,

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello Frank,

 

Thanks so very much ... still looking!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hello Michel:

 

FYI: I started with the PLM 52 and ISY version 2.4.12

 

 

Best wishes,

[BobMiller]

Michel,

 

I have a couple questions regarding communications issues with the ISY. My situation is exactly like sfhutchi's - I can control the SWL device from the ISY but I can't get "state" response back.

 

My PLM seems good and I think I have about 366 links (I counted the scene entrants manually and used the calculator for all else). If I use the calculator (directly entering 28 scenes) then I get 412 links. SO I may be over the 417 threshold...

 

But my take is signal strength - I've been moving around my signal linc to improve things and have gotten erratic results. Per the forum recommendations I have one SignalLinc at the PLM and I move around the other one.

 

I've also tried your recommendations of restoring and deleting/adding devices - neither of which work. In fact my last delete gave me an "request failed" error

 

1) In a prior reply you made the note about old SWL's below v.24 being a problem. This particular device is a v.22 device.

 

I have 36 SWL devices in my house and 14 of them are at v.22. Will I need to replace these to use trigger function with those devices? What is the issue with these older v.22 devices? Is their anyway to get them upgraded? I was an early adopter of Insteon - I hope that doesn't give me grief.

 

2) Based on what I have seen from the various posts the fundamental problem seems to be signal fidelity back to the PLM. I use signallinc devices at present. I realize the following are Smart Home/Insteon questions, but I hope you have some feedback based on your usage of the ISY device.

 

a) Do you recommend replacing them with ACCESS Points for better signal quality/strength in the network?

Can I operate both SignalLincs and Access Points simultaneously in a network? Will that give better performance than just one or the other?

c) Has anyone seen any significant improvement with 4 access points versus 2? I have a 2600 SqFt house/2 stories/one main power panel and 1 subpanel.

 

I am using ISY SW vers: 2.4.15

 

Thanks for your help and I commend you on your great support,

 

Bob

 

sfhutchi,

 

For ISY to sense button presses, there has to be a link for that device in the PLM. If your SWL can control everything else it's linked to but ISY does not hear it being activated/deactivated, then here are the possible causes:

1. You have a very old SWL (below v.24)

2. You have a defective PLM (not likely if everything else works)

3. You have reached the maximum number of links allowed in your PLM (have you used our calculator?)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

What kind of device is this? If it's a switch type (SWL, CL, RL, KPL), please try "Restore Device" on it and let me know if that solves the problem.

 

The device is a SWL. It is in a box with a KPL (tied to same neutral and hot). The KPL commands are seen very reliably by the ISY.

 

I just tried a device restore (twice actually), but no difference.

[yardman 49]

Hello Bob:

 

I too had quite a bit of signal strength issues with the PLM that is used by the ISY.

 

I was already running two Access Points when I started with the ISY. I've tried three and that did not make any improvement.

 

I believe that the problem lies with the PLM being somewhat "deaf" compared with other Insteon Devices. Maybe it has an AGC circuit in it that turns down the signal amplification in the presence of line noise. Or it could just not have enough gain on its receiver circuit, if it's hardwired.

 

At any rate, these things may help you:

 

- Try to put one Signalinc on each leg of your mains, on outlets that are as near as possible to your mains. If you need more RF coverage for your house (such as for use with the Remotelincs) you can add additional AccessPoints at other locations. I run the two near the mains, and one on the second floor in the master bedroom.

- Put Filterlincs or other compatible filters on all television, AV equipment, and computers. This is as much to limit "signal sucking" by those devices as it is to prevent noise from coming back on the line.

- if some of your devices are X10, put a Boosterlinc on the same circuit that your PLM is on.

- Some GFCIs can cause signal problems. Try to not put the PLM on a circuit that is GFCI protected.

- low voltage halogen light transformers (such as come undercounter and cabinet lights) can throw off a lot of noise into your powerline. Leviton makes a nice, compact unit that can fit inside of some of those types of fixtures. You can get this from Smarthome (SH part number 4835; Leviton part number 6287).

 

Sorry to hear about your problems! I sympathize, as I have experienced the same. But if you can clean up your powerline enough to allow the PLM to "hear" properly, I think that you will be very pleased with the performance of the ISY-26. It's a really good product, and continuing to improve as Michel and Chris get the bugs worked out of the beta release code for 2.5.

 

Best wishes,

[Michel Kohanim]

Frank, thanks so very much!

 

Hello Bob,

 

Apologies for a tardy reply!

 

I think Frank has already answered most of your questions so, herein under, please find my comments. I do hope that we can get all the issues resolved.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

Michel,

 

I have a couple questions regarding communications issues with the ISY. My situation is exactly like sfhutchi's - I can control the SWL device from the ISY but I can't get "state" response back.

 

My PLM seems good and I think I have about 366 links (I counted the scene entrants manually and used the calculator for all else). If I use the calculator (directly entering 28 scenes) then I get 412 links. SO I may be over the 417 threshold...

 

But my take is signal strength - I've been moving around my signal linc to improve things and have gotten erratic results. Per the forum recommendations I have one SignalLinc at the PLM and I move around the other one.

 

I've also tried your recommendations of restoring and deleting/adding devices - neither of which work. In fact my last delete gave me an "request failed" error

Above and beyond what Frank has suggested, I think you may want to try and doing a factory reset on your SWL.

 

1) In a prior reply you made the note about old SWL's below v.24 being a problem. This particular device is a v.22 device.

 

I have 36 SWL devices in my house and 14 of them are at v.22. Will I need to replace these to use trigger function with those devices? What is the issue with these older v.22 devices? Is their anyway to get them upgraded? I was an early adopter of Insteon - I hope that doesn't give me grief.

Yes indeed SWLs v.22 are known not to send their status back to ISY. Do you have the same problem with all your v.22 SWLs? Do you also experience the same with your v.24 devices?

As far as I know, the only way to upgrade them is to go through SmartHome. Have you tried their tech support? How old are these devices?

 

2) Based on what I have seen from the various posts the fundamental problem seems to be signal fidelity back to the PLM. I use signallinc devices at present. I realize the following are Smart Home/Insteon questions, but I hope you have some feedback based on your usage of the ISY device.

 

a) Do you recommend replacing them with ACCESS Points for better signal quality/strength in the network?

Yes! Based on my experiences, in larger installations, AccessPoints work much better than SignaLincs. But, before doing anything else, I would try finding the source of the noise, if any, and try the FilterLincs as Frank suggested. This way, you are not going to spend money on APs when the problem might actually be noise.

 

Can I operate both SignalLincs and Access Points simultaneously in a network? Will that give better performance than just one or the other?

c) Has anyone seen any significant improvement with 4 access points versus 2? I have a 2600 SqFt house/2 stories/one main power panel and 1 subpanel.

I am not sure. Would you be kind enough to post this question to our Everything INSTEON forum (http://forum.universal-devices.com/index.php?c=9) which is monitored by Mr. Lee, from SmartHomePro, and who will surely respond to your questions.

 

 

 

I am using ISY SW vers: 2.4.15

 

Thanks for your help and I commend you on your great support,

 

Bob

[BobMiller]

Michel & Frank,

 

Thanks to both of you for the quick and thorough responses. And Michel, no apologies needed for a "tardy" reply! I was expecting a reply on Monday - I didn't expect that you were working a 7 day week!

 

By the way I think the ISY product is a great one - a perfect hit in the market. I'm really enjoying digging into it and using it. Now I just need to squeeze out all the performance.

 

Frank, to clarify a few of your suggestions:

 

1) "Try to put one Signalinc on each leg of your mains, on outlets that are as near as possible to your mains." I assume with "each leg of your mains" you mean on the two 120V power line phases coming into my house. When you say "as near as possible to your mains", do you mean as close as possible to the main breaker panel? My assumption based on Smarthomes docs were that SignalLincs didn't respond properly unless they were on different phases - I've been relying on that to determine if I have both phases covered.

 

2) I'll order a bunch of FilterLincs and see what I can do to clean up the power lines.

 

3) Since I don't have any RemoteLincs and my house isn't too large, based on both of your feedback it sounds like I can pass on the Access Points at this point in time.

 

 

Michel,

 

I'll try the factory reset on this device. Over the next day or so I'll run experiments on all my v.22 devices to see how they respond and get back to you. I've had many of those devices at least 2 years (past warranty).

 

Is it your impression that the v.22 don't send any signal or it is just a poor quality signal that gives intermittent results? I'll also followup with Smarthome on this.

 

Thanks again to both of you for your feedback!

 

Bob

[yardman 49]

Hello Bob:

 

You wrote:

 

Frank, to clarify a few of your suggestions:

 

1) "Try to put one Signalinc on each leg of your mains, on outlets that are as near as possible to your mains." I assume with "each leg of your mains" you mean on the two 120V power line phases coming into my house. When you say "as near as possible to your mains", do you mean as close as possible to the main breaker panel? My assumption based on Smarthomes docs were that SignalLincs didn't respond properly unless they were on different phases - I've been relying on that to determine if I have both phases covered.

 

You are correct. What I meant by "legs" is what you are calling phases. From what I have learned from others on the forums, home power in the U.S. does not really have two "phases" in the real sense, but simply is a single phase output of two equal but opposite "legs" on a center tapped 240v transformer. Hence my statement about the "legs" rather than "phases". But most people use those terms interchangeably in regards to home power in the U.S., so we are both saying the same thing.

 

And when I said to put two Signalincs or AccessPoints "as near as possible to your mains", you are correct again, I was refering to your breaker panel. I got this idea from some literature that SmartHome put out on how to best use their Boosterlinc product (for X10 signals). It also seemed to help my Insteon signals with the AccessPoints.

 

I haven't used the Signalincs in a while (I sent mine back as part of the AccessPoint trade in program). But one thing that I noticed when I first used Signalincs is that their literature is not correct. What was shipping in the box was not the same as the PDF manual on the SH webpage for the product.

 

I have to say that using the AccessPoints is very easy in terms of how well they "recognize" whether they are on truly opposite "phases" of your power lines. Also, Michel seems to prefer them over the Signalincs in large installations as providing better repeater performance.

 

I now have two Remotelincs, and am happy with the performance. I finally got my "free" Remotelinc as part of the trade in program. I recommend the trade in program to you. Basically, you pay for two reduced proce "refurbished" AccessPoints (which looked new to me). You send your two Signalincs back to SmartHome in the AccessPoint boxes, and they then send you a new Remotelinc. It's a pretty good value, although it did take about 6 weeks for my free Remotelinc to show up. I guess that they were backordered, but they are shipping now, so you should get yours faster if you decide to go this route.

 

 

Best wishes,

[MikeB]

Can I operate both SignalLincs and Access Points simultaneously in a network? Will that give better performance than just one or the other?

 

You can operate both on the same network, but they will not repeat signals between eachother. So, assuming you have 2 SignalLincs and 2 AccessPoints, the 2 SignalLincs will only repeat signals back and forth to one another, and the 2 AccessPoints will only repeat signals back and forth to one another.

 

If you swapped the SignalLincs out with AccessPoints, for a total of 4, a signal received by any one will repeat to the other 3 on the network (as long as they are in range).

 

c) Has anyone seen any significant improvement with 4 access points versus 2? I have a 2600 SqFt house/2 stories/one main power panel and 1 subpanel.

 

I have 4 installed in my home. I personally would recommend at least 3 AccessPoints - 2 on opposite phases in the house, and one on top of the PLM wherever it may be. A fourth would be nice if you find any 'weak' areas.

 

The primary purpose would be to repeat signals between the 2 phases in your home. After that, you're simply repeating signals into different spots on your powerline.

 

Good luck!

[BobMiller]

Mike and Frank,

 

Thanks for your help.

 

I tried a few experiments to see if v.22's act different than later revs, and have realized I must have a serious noise/signal connection problem(s) in my system. None of the SWL revs seem to reliably transmit their state. I did put a post to "SteveL" on "Everything Insteon" to better understand the v.22 issue.

 

So based on your suggestions I've ordered some FilterLincs and have decided to upgrade to Access Points (4 units for full coverage).

 

We'll see how things progress when they arrive.

 

Thanks again,

Bob

[Michel Kohanim]

Bob,

 

Thanks for the update. Please do keep me posted as it's very important for me to make sure you have a workable solution.

 

Thanks for your patience,

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Mike and Frank,

 

Thanks for your help.

 

I tried a few experiments to see if v.22's act different than later revs, and have realized I must have a serious noise/signal connection problem(s) in my system. None of the SWL revs seem to reliably transmit their state. I did put a post to "SteveL" on "Everything Insteon" to better understand the v.22 issue.

 

So based on your suggestions I've ordered some FilterLincs and have decided to upgrade to Access Points (4 units for full coverage).

 

We'll see how things progress when they arrive.

 

Thanks again,

Bob

[linuxguy]

Hello all,

 

I've been searching the forum for the proper thread to post this. If it should be somewhere else, perhaps some one will move it.

 

I have been studying the minimum signal sensivity in the SmartHome docs. Here is what I found:

 

Device..............SH #..........Min Sensivity (mvPP)

PLM..............2412S...................20

LampLinc.......2456D3/S3..........10

SwitchLinc.....2476D/S/ST...........1

Access Pts.....2443.....................1

SignaLinc.......2442......................1

 

From this I would draw the following conclusions:

....It is not surprising the PLM has comm problems.

....It is not surprising that Access points/SignaLincs make a good "repeater" when piggybacked with the PLM.

....It is surprising why SH would create products with such a wide range of sensitvities, and put the poorest on on the PLM

 

I have put a spare LampLinc on my PLM, and located the Access Points where they will give better RF coverage throughout the house. It seems to be doing fine that way.

 

Perhaps this info may help you plan which devices will work better/worse in which locations.

 

PS: my "signature" is out of date. I have about 40 Insteon devices linked to ISY 2.4.13.

Linuxguy