I have my mister pump plugged into a dual on/off outlet 2663-222 which was working fine, but now fails to supply power to the pump.  The label on the pump says 11.9 amps, but the spec sheet says 13.5.  The outlet says it's rated for 15amps so should be fine unless peak startup current is to much.  The LED still turns red/green and I can hear the internal click when it turns on/off but now power.  This was in the bottom plug, now I switched it to the top plug and it works fine, but I assume it will eventually blow as well.  Is there anything I can do to alleviate this or must I switch to a higher rated plug?

 

I've never used the 2663-222, but the specs say it supports load sensing.  If there's an option in the admin console to turn on or off load sensing you might try tweaking that feature.

It's also possible that the relay for the bottom plug failed.

Being that the outlet is rated for 15 amps it should be compatible with your pump unless the pump is bogged down and drawning more that 15 amps.

Thanks, load sensing was off, so I tried turning it on, still no power when toggling with the button, turned it back off and still nothing. I also confirmed my plugin sensor worked on another plug of the same model.

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I would suspect a start up surge current or a voltage spike when switching off.

My experience with several on/off outlets is that line noise from the load can damage them if the length of cable is to short. Possibly putting a filterlinc or a filter cap in the device will help

Edited June 20, 20241 yr by paulbates

Thanks, I was suspecting a startup surge as well and was hoping there was something simple to help alleviate that..

The cable is 6, is that short?' I tried a filterlinc but they are only rated for 10amps so it blew quickly.

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Typically, in industrial electronics, contact devices have  two current ratings, one for resistive loads and one for inductive loads. Since you are controlling a motor, you have an inductive load and the rating of the contacts should have been stated as much lower.

This is due to, as @Brian H posted above, when you break the current flow to an inductor/motor, it has an 'electrical inertia' that doesn't want the present current to change and results in an inductive voltage spike coming from the load. When the contact opens the current will tend to keep flowing and will arc across the contact until it extinguishes or the contact either melts together or melts itself clear.

When replacing the device I would install some heavy duty MOVs across the motor windings, to absorb some of this counterEMF that the motor may produce.

The common ones I have dealt with mostly were rated at 20,000 joules @ 220V. You must remember it has to withstand the peak of the 120v waveform. 130v x 1.414 = 183v

The Insteon Spec. sheet is insufficient.   Simply stating "600W Incandescent 15A All Other Loads" does not address a motor load properly.    The reason it is only rated for 600W incandescent is because of inrush current.    600W/120V = only 5Amps.      They should be including a HP rating (horsepower rating for motor loads).

     I would not expect the Insteon device to last driving such a large motor load.  I would suggest finding a larger capacity controller.  Or drive a contactor from the outlet that then powers the motor.

Thanks @larrylix but I've no idea how to install MOVs across the motor windings.

I've ordered a Zooz Z-Wave Plus Power Switch ZEN15 for 110V AC Units, Sump Pumps, Humidifiers, and More https://a.co/d/0eS572it
Hopefully that will handle the load. Others on reddit have said it works well for this purpose.


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6 minutes ago, Jimbo.Automates said:

Thanks @larrylix but I've no idea how to install MOVs across the motor windings.

I've ordered a Zooz Z-Wave Plus Power Switch ZEN15 for 110V AC Units, Sump Pumps, Humidifiers, and More https://a.co/d/0eS572it
Hopefully that will handle the load. Others on reddit have said it works well for this purpose.


Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk
 

It says it is for motors so it should work.

For the MOV, it is a small flat lollipop shaped item that would require a space inside the motor or even a large size plug. I assume there are no terminal blocks involved in the wiring somewhere?

For contacts it's the current that is critical for turning things on and running. It is the voltage that is critical not to arc across the contacts for turn things off. Motors are a biotch for both aspects.

We dealt with a lot of DC devices so a 240 vac contact would suddenly be rated at 24vdc max. I watched a few contacts melt before my eyes while new engineers discovered this the hard way. High voltage DC contacts (yeah 120vdc was 'high') involved magnets to attract the arc into quenching cages and other magic.

As @ELAposted above the Insteon specs have always been missing the full spec., hiding the motor/inductive capacity of their devices.

I can not say about production modules but the FCC Database Internal photos. Show two TRVF-24VDC-SD-AL relays Specification sheet not 100% clear either.

Note the 2663-222 is not on the present Insteon sales pages. Looks like it was replaced by an dual switched outlet I3 module. Says 600 Watts Incandescent and 15Amps all other loads.

TRV_TRVF.pdf

10 hours ago, Jimbo.Automates said:

I've ordered a Zooz Z-Wave Plus Power Switch ZEN15 for 110V AC Units, Sump Pumps, Humidifiers, and More https://a.co/d/0eS572it
Hopefully that will handle the load. Others on reddit have said it works well for this purpose.
 

That unit says 0.5hp.     How many horsepower is your pump motor?   At 12-14 amps likely more than 0.5hp.

Rough approximation = 12A*120V = 1440watts / 750W/hp = near 2 hp.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ELA said:

That unit says 0.5hp.     How many horsepower is your pump motor?   At 12-14 amps likely more than 0.5hp.

Rough approximation = 12A*120V = 1440watts / 750W/hp = near 2 hp.

It says 1.5HP https://www.advancedmistingsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Manual-PullyDriven.pdf

I emailed Insteon support and Steve Lee said:

Quote

 

Incandescent and even more so LED loads can have a multiple X inrush and for that reason they derate the contacts on On Off devices.

 

Maybe consider the On Off Module.

On/Off Module – Insteon 

 

Solid relay at 15 amps

 

So maybe I'll try that if the Zooz doesn't work out, I may have one here at the lake or at home to bring next trip.

Thanks for everyone's great info as usual, much appreciated.

- Jim

 

 

On 6/20/2024 at 8:48 AM, Jimbo.Automates said:

Thanks, I was suspecting a startup surge as well and was hoping there was something simple to help alleviate that..

The cable is 6, is that short?' I tried a filterlinc but they are only rated for 10amps so it blew quickly.

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk
 

If you are handy. The FilterLinc has a soldered in 10 Amp fuse and it can be replaced after you find the correct fuse. I believe I got a few from Mouser.

I looked at the instruction booklet you linked too.

That motor is 1&1/2 HP and looks like it has both a starting and running capacitor. Would definitely have a starting surge and probably a repetitive or in rush current surge. That will effect a device used to control it.

ELA had a good idea. A contractor designed to handle the motor and a 120VAC coil  you could turn On and Off with a Insteon wall switch or On Off module with a 120VAC output

Edited June 21, 20241 yr by Brian H
correct HP

@Jimbo.Automates This might be a ready made solution.

120-277v Insteon Load Controller