Signal coupling X10 vs Insteon

[gschoffstall]

Hi Guys, I'm sure this has been covered before somewhere, but I couldn't find an answer. Are X10 and Insteon powerline signals handled by hardware the same way? Do X10 bridges work for Insteon signals and vice versa? If using an X10 phase bridge, would it pass Insteon signals or block them, especially assuming the unit in question is advertised as a "booster" as well? If using LampLinc's for bridging, would they bridge X10 RF signals? I know that's a lot. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[IndyMike]

2 minutes ago, gschoffstall said:

Hi Guys, I'm sure this has been covered before somewhere, but I couldn't find an answer. Are X10 and Insteon powerline signals handled by hardware the same way? Do X10 bridges work for Insteon signals and vice versa? If using an X10 phase bridge, would it pass Insteon signals or block them, especially assuming the unit in question is advertised as a "booster" as well? If using LampLinc's for bridging, would they bridge X10 RF signals? I know that's a lot. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

@gschoffstall, a passive X10 coupler is close enough to Insteon frequency that it can be used.

A X10 BOOSTER may couple Insteon signals (depends on the model).  X10 boosters will NOT boost Insteon signals.  Some will actively interfere with Insteon.

LampLincs will NOT bridge X10 RF.

 

[Brian H]

I have a JV Digital XTB-IIR X10 coupler/repeater. It will not couple Insteon power line command.

It is smart enough to ignore Insteon commands on the power line. Other models may see the tail end of an Insteon command as an X10 command and corrupt the Insteon command.

X10 phase couplers should work OK most times. The now discontinued XPCP had tuned line inputs. In that case I can't say if an Insteon signal would be passed between phases.

Most these days. Use dual band modules and don't need a coupler between the phases. I am almost 100% power line only Insteon. So in my case I still have a pair of Access Points and a dual band LampLinc in the pass through outlet on one of my ApplianceLinc modules.

Edited September 21 by Brian H

[gschoffstall]

OK, so there were a few responses suggesting the 4 tap test to verify coupling and signal integrity. I do not have a range extender, but I do have several virgin LampLinc's. I understand they could work for the test, but I have seen no documentation for how it is implemented. Does the testing device(s) have to be linked, or just plugged in? Or do they need to be link-free? If you are just using the Lamplinc for an RF bridge, does it have to be linked? Thanks.

[Brian H]

Are the LampLinc modules 2457D2 dual band or the old 2456D3 power line only models?

No they do not have to be linked to any other devices.  Any dual band module can do the four tap or later called the Beacon test. The Lamplinc can  be used alone or be used in the system to control a device. I have a 2457D2 LampLinc just as a signal bridge. The Range Extender is just a 2457D2 Lamplinc with the dimmer components not installed. Even your 2413S PLM can run the four tap test as it is Dual Band.

The Range Extender manual gives some information on the Four Tap Tests.  https://www.insteon.com/support-knowledgebase/2014/9/26/range-extender-owners-manual

Edited September 23 by Brian H

[gschoffstall]

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

Are the LampLinc modules 2457D2 dual band

They are the dual band D2 modules. Thanks

[Brian H]

OK then the dual band four tap tests should work.

Now not all dual band modules in the home. Will show an LED flash from every other module in the house and is normal many times. Just every module will communicate to at least one other one.

I checked my manuals for the 2457D2. The earlier manuals called it an RF Beacon test. Found on a flow chart of set button presses and LED flashing patterns. Later revision manuals didn't mention it at all. The four tap test probably will still function. Along with the flow chart method.

Edited September 24 by Brian H
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[gschoffstall]

My 4 tap test results are inconclusive. I have an intermittent issue with signal transmission- especially X-10. I don't seen to be able so far to isolate what must surely be noise or attenuation on the lines. For signal coupllng, I have a JV Digital XTB-IIR. It always seemed to work fine and I don't know how to make sure it is still 100%. The issue is intermittent, as I said. I use X-10 HR12a controllers to trigger programs and some X-10 devices. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I'm still trying to isolate, but so far, it's not the A/V equipment, the convection oven, or my grow lights - and it's random. Today's question - is there a difference between the Powerline Noise Filter from Insteon and the Filterlinc Noise Filter 5AMP from SmartHome, besides the obvious price difference? Thanks.

[Brian H]

Which Smart Home Products filter are you looking at? The AF100 looks the same as an X10 XPPF. The AF120 is a 15 amp filter and has a replaceable fuse if you pop it. Both are tuned to the X10 frequency but probably are fine with the Insteon  frequency. They also have other products that may assist if you have any numbers to ask about.

The FilterLinc as you know is 10 amp and the fuse is soldered in to it internally.

I am definitely surprised a XTB-IIR has problems. Unless the X10 commands are not getting to it so it can be processed. I have a WGL V572 all address receiver. Feeding the TW523 emulation port on mine.

 

[gschoffstall]

I am not blaming the XTB-IIR, I just have no way of knowing it's solid. I was looking at the plug in Filterlinc, but they are scarce even on Ebay- and who knows what condition. There are a lot of filters in a can, and I have no problem housing them and dressing them up nice. But then just what frequency(s) are they tuned for? I haven't found any AF120's even on Ebay. Since I don't know exactly what is causing the works to go sideways yet, I don't know what current rating I need, or how many. I found an XPF and XPPF new. Guess I'll throw some money at it and see what flies. So many questions. Makes me want to rip it all out and go low voltage. 

Edited September 26 by gschoffstall
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[Brian H]

Insteon has new FilterLinc modules showing in stock. I would also be cautious with EBay units. We have see some reports of them having blown fuses or bad solder joints. In units listed as used.

I did see the AF120 on the SmartHome Products site. But I didn't see them as maybe not available. Sorry for the misinformation.

I would be very careful with other filters. Many would absorb the X10 (120KHz) and Insteon (131.65KHz) power line signals as noise.

If you have someone that can look at the XTB-IIR LED. While sending X10 commands. It should flash to indicate it is processing the commands.

XPPF is 5 amps and I do not know if it has been improved since I got mine. Mine over heat if pushed to 5 amps. The XPF is a very large 20 amp filter and install sheet said a 3 gang electrical box maybe need.

Edited September 27 by Brian H
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[IndyMike]

@gschoffstall, I've lost track of what you are trying to accomplish.  Are you attempting to fix Insteon problems, X10 problems, or both? 

It looks like you are trying to track down a signal absorber.  You've mentioned a number of plug in devices that you've eliminated.  Don't forget about hardwired devices (heat pump, etc) that activate on their own.  Something as simple as a failing photocell on a post lamp can wreak havoc on powerline communication.

You mentioned that your 4-tap test was inconclusive.  What did it show you about your insteon components?  Did they all flash either red or green?

The information provided by @Brian H is spot on.  In addition to the plug in filters, Jeff Volp has developed a XTB-ANR active noise reducer.  I have not tried the ANR and can't say for certain that it's compatible with Insteon.  In the past, Jeff did develop his products making sure that they were compatible with Insteon.  I would recommend contacting him directly if you're interested.  Jeff does sell these in pairs so you can place one on each phase near the electrical panel.

https://jvde.us/xtb/xtb-anr.pdf

[gschoffstall]

Thanks IndyMike. I would like to maintain my system of mixed Insteon and X-10 devices. I just don't see that either one alone handles the needs. I believe that I may have found two issues. One is an Insteon outdoor on/off module. It's just killing the X-10 when it fires up, and sometimes when it's off. Also, my upright freezer has some effect. I don't know if it's a compressor or the defrost circuit at this point. Either way, I ordered some filters to try. Thanks to all for all the suggestions. I'll post again when I have more information.

[Ross]

@gschoffstall I don't want to hijack the thread, but I'm just curious.  You mentioned "I just don't see that either one alone handles the needs".  What can X-10 do that Insteon cannot?  I have a bunch of old X-10 modules in a box, but I haven't used them in years.  Maybe they have some life in them yet!  Thank you, Ross

 

[gschoffstall]

@Ross, I like the remotes M U C H better than the Insteon offerings. And it's not a big deal, but the X-10 modules are smaller. Since I started with X-10 back in the AppleII era (dating myself), I have a bunch of modules for spares if they crash. And the Insteon/ Smarthome parts are pricey. The advantage of UD/Insteon is the obvious redundancy of dual channel and power line - when it works.

[Brian H]

I also like the X10 HR12A. 16 button remotes. Over any of the Insteon ones.

The older modules can also have a Primary X10 address added to them and some also an X10 Scene Address. That I still use daily. One draw back is modules changed by X10 are not reflected in the ISY Controllers information.

I also still have a Powerflash, Socket Rocket (with a small Red LED bulb) and Large PowerHorn Siren modules. Triggered if my alarm output on the boiler. It it has a problem. Since I had them in storage why not use them at no added cost for new Insteon hardware. Like the Insteon Siren Module is now discontinued.

Edited September 28 by Brian H
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[gschoffstall]

Guys, Here's an update on my communication issues. I finally received the AF100  ordered (by way of Zimbabwe and pack mule, I  guess). Anyway, It fixed the X10 transmission issues caused by my grow light set. Now my lettuce and tomatoes have half a chance without messing anything else up. I still have to receive the big brother 20a version in case the freezer gets belligerent. I'm still slowly rebuilding my programs, but it's looking up. Thanks for being patient with me through my crisis.

George