Keypad link buttons inconsistent with program action

[RBC]

I am new to using the ISY with Insteon. To practice with the system I am trying a simple application. I have a switch link controlling one light, a keypad (using the A button) set up in a scene. The scene is controlled with a program set to turn the light on at sunset and off one hour later.

 

The scene uses the Keypad (button A) as a controller and the switchlink as a responder. The program: at sunset the light comes on and button A lights. One hour later, the light goes off and the button A light goes off.

 

At least this is what should happen. For the last week on different evenings, I have found the following:

 

"at sunset, lights on"

 

light is on, button A is on (correct according to program)

light is on, button A is off (inconsistent with program)

 

"one hour after sunset, lights off"

 

light is off. button A is off (correct according to program)

light is on, button A is off (inconsistent with program)

light is off, button A is on (inconsistent with program)

 

Looking over this forum, I find problems requiring filters, moving the PLM, switching phases, looking for other appliances (TVs, computers, battery chargers) on the line, access points, etc.

 

Is my problems related? or could it be something else like the software program, a bad/inconsistent ISY, bad Keypad or Switch link, other??

 

Looking for suggestions to try before going further in setting up my complete network. Thanks

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello RBC,

 

The first thing to do would be to use the Scene Test (Tools | Diagnostics | Scene Test) to make sure that your KPL does actually respond to scene commands from the PLM.

 

The next things to check:

1. Is this specific KPL button a responder in other scenes?

2. Is this specific KPL controlled by other programs (Right mouse click on My Programs and do a Find)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RBC]

Michel,

 

 

Thanks for the quick response. Just for reference, you helped me a couple of weeks back update the ISY 26 firmware using a "brute force method." The results were successful but you warned me of possible reliability problems with my ISY. Maybe they have arrived???

 

1. Scene test reports back "succeeded"

2. The KPL is not in other scenes

3. This is the only program I have (other than the Query All) When I go to "program details, My Programs and right click, find/replace---set the filter to "programs" I only see this one program and the Query All

 

 

Just to be clear---I originally had two other KPLs in this same scene (total of 3 KPLs) I was using Button A on each KPL as controllers in the scene. I ended up with similar issues with inconsistent results. I decided to simplify things to get to the bottom of the problem and thus removed 2 of the KPLs. My Lighting icons all show clear with no unwritten commands or issues that I can see.

 

One other side note---when I logged into the ISY Admin, I noticed a completely unrelated Switch Link in a bedroom showing "ON" as a "current state" checking the light in the room, I found it OFF, I manually cycled the SL On and then Off---returning to the computer, the current condition remained ON with the light physically Off. Also noticed condition of other KPLs on the system with blanks under "current state"

RBC

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello RBC,

 

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

There are only three cases such that a KPL button is not going to be in synch with the scene for which it's a controller:

1. It does not receive the signal from the PLM

2. It does turn on/off accordingly but something else is changing its state be it another program or another device

3. The device is defective

 

Apart from the above 3, I cannot think of anything else. If the scene test works ALL the time, then I would rule out 1. We are only left with 2 and 3 ...

 

But, here's the clue: you used to have other devices in the same scene and now they are no longer there. And the issue of an unrelated device being on when it should be off. As such, I would think that you still have some residual links in all your devices (for whatever reason). What I recommend is:

1. Factory reset your ISY

2. Add your devices back in one at a time but this time please do make sure to factory reset each device and then use the first option (remove existing links) to add them back to ISY

 

Do NOT crawl your network.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RBC]

I will follow your suggestion this weekend. When you say to "add your devices back in one at a time--" am I clear that after doing the factory reset, I should walk to each device (one at a time) make the link on the ISY and then continue with the next device OR can I link more than one device at a time?

 

I understand to not "crawl the network" but I can save myself a lot of trips up and down the stairs if linking several devices at a time is acceptable.

 

RBC

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello RBC,

 

You can add them all at the same time ... but, I recommend doing two or three at a time just to make sure things are working properly. We do not want to create more work if the switches are defective.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RBC]

Michel,

 

Long delay on my part, finally back to my problem. I want to follow your earlier suggestion to do the "factory reset" on my ISY 26. I have looked high and low and cannot find anything that looks like a reset button needing a sharp object to depress.

 

My ISY has a paper label on the bottom showing:

 

ISY-26/0000575

 

How do I complete the factory reset?

 

RBC

[LeeG]

Look for a small hole in the case where a paper clip or similar can be inserted. It is to the right of the status lights on the 99i. Don't know where the hole is on the old 26.

 

EDIT: A Wiki link to an ISY-26 document says type FR (upper case) into the telnet shell to do a factory reset.

[RBC]

LeeG,

 

No hole to be found on the ISY 26 but I will try the Telnet FR method. I looked on the ISY 26 Wiki but was unable to find the method you suggest. Thank you for digging it up.

RBC

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello RBC,

 

There's only one way to do a factory reset on ISY26 and that's through telnet or Hyperterminal and issuing FR.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RBC]

OK, I have completed resetting the ISY, the PLM and all of the switch and keypad links. I am still seeing inconsistencies with the keypad button lights staying on when they should be off and vice-versa.

 

I am now beginning to suspect my scene/program choice as being part of the problem. What would you suggest as the best way to accomplish this lighting task?

 

Lighting setup

1. A switch link to control power to a transformer connected to landscape Path lights

2. A switch link to control power to a transformer connected to landscape Spot lights

3. A keypad (6 button) switch

 

Goal---

Manual control using the Keypad A button for the Path lights and the B button for the Spot lights ----and the ISY to have both the Path and Spot lights turn on at Sunset +20 minutes and both the Path and Spot lights to turn off at 10PM. The A and B button lights should follow the landscape lights---when the Path lights are On the A button should be On, when the Spot lights are On the B button should be On---same with the off condition. During the Sunset+20 through 10PM when the ISY has turned both lights on, I want to be able to manually turn them off and again on if desired.

 

I have found and tried several examples of scenes and programs to do this but don't feel comfortable with my programming skills to separate out whether my problem is a programming or communication issue. Having a good, reliable software solution would narrow things down. Thanks.

[LeeG]

I would do this in stages since you do not know if you have good powerline communication.

 

Define Scene1; add KPL button A as Controller; add Path Lights SwitchLinc as Controller

 

Define Scene 2; add KPL button B as Controller; add Spot Lights SwitchLinc as Controller

 

When these Scenes have been defined you should be able to ….

 

Press KPL button A On/Off and have Path Lights SwitchLinc turn On/Off in response. Pressing Path Lights SwitchLinc paddle On/Off should turn KPL button A On/Off in response.

 

Press KPL button B On/Off and have Spot Lights SwitchLinc turn On/Off in response. Pressing Spot Lights SwitchLinc paddle On/Off should turn KPL button B On/Off in response.

 

If you have reliable control between the above KPL buttons and SwitchLincs then we need one more Scene which ISY Programs will drive but first let’s make sure you have good device to device communication first.

 

Regardless of whether the above works do you have a pair of Access Points or the equivalent coupling the two 120V legs?

[RBC]

OK, so far so good. Both scenes work as you describe they should. Manual control of the keys/buttons and the associated lights turn on and off correctly.

 

I have a total of 4 access points installed. Since I have two subpanels in this home, I put 2 access points on each subpanel feed with one access point on each leg of the sub feed.

 

Don't know if it matters but the ISY and one switch link is installed on one subpanel feed, the keypad and the other switch link on the other subpanel feed.

[LeeG]

Define Scene3; add KPL button A as responder; add KPL button B as responder; add Path Lights SwitchLinc as responder; add Spot Lights SwitchLinc as responder.

 

Define a Program that runs at a specific time, a few minutes in the future. Define the Then as setting Scene3 On. At the defined time KPL button A and B along with both SwitchLincs should turn On. You should be able to press KPL button A or Path Lights SwitchLinc to turn Off Path Lights. Both KPL button A and Path Lights SwitchLinc should turn Off. Pressing KPL button B or Spot Lights SwitchLinc should turn Off the Spot Lights SwitchLinc and both KPL button B and the Spot Lights SwitchLinc should turn Off. The process of manually turning the devices Off with a KPL button press or SwitchLinc paddle press is under control of Scene 1 and Scene 2. Scene 3 is used during this test only to turn On the devices.

 

Assuming the above is reliable then you can define whatever ISY Programs you want to turn On Scene3 at Sunset +20 which will turn On Path Lights and Spot Lights and both KPL buttons. A second Program that runs at 10 PM and turns Scene 3 Off will turn Off both Path Lights and Spot Lights along with turning both KPL buttons Off.

 

Being on different subpanels should not matter if the Access Points are correctly installed. There are things that can interfere with Insteon signals coming from the ISY PLM such as an unfiltered UPS on the same circuit.

[RBC]

I have Scene 3 working and wrote the two programs (one to turn on scene 3 and one to turn off scene 3). The sunset setting just activated everything correctly. I will check later tonight to see if everything shuts off properly.

 

Will keep an eye out over the weekend to monitor the system and get back to you early next week.

 

Thanks for your input---I've got my fingers crossed that all will work well.

[LeeG]

RBC,

 

That is a good result. The fact that the ISY was able to create the links for the three Scenes suggest reasonable communication between the ISY and the four devices. There could be intermittent problems. Things like some Cell Phone chargers can mess up Insteon communication. Some Lap Top power supplies have the same affect. Should you encounter a problem turn on the Event Log using Tools/Diagnostics/Event Viewer and Change Level to level 3.

 

Good Luck.

 

Lee

[RBC]

Took me awhile but here is what I found.

With the three scenes defined and two programs in place (program 1 turns on scene 3 at sunset+20min and program 2 turns off scene 3 at 10PM).

1. First night worked perfectly but the following nights seemed to almost always work correctly except that the keypad lighted buttons did not turn off. In other words, over the next five nights the keypad buttons would always light along with the controlled load lights on schedule, the controlled load lights would turn off at 10PM BUT the keypad button lights would remain on.

2. The scene test would result in successful reports every time I ran the test.

3. I decided to try moving access points around to different locations to see if I got better results. When doing this (I have 4 access points on the circuits) I became suspicious of two of the access points not responding to the set button/light flashing routine in the operation instructions. After a bit of arm twisting, I got Smarthome to send me two replacements. At this point I went back to trying different plug locations for the 4 access points.

4. The results were unchanged---almost always the keypad link button lights remained on. I say almost because occasionally one button would go off as programmed leaving the other button on

5. Last attempt---I started over and chose a different keypad link in a different room. This keypad is installed on a different circuit. The newly programmed keypad has worked perfectly for 5 nights in a row.

 

I am really curious to know whether you think this is the sign of a bad keypad link or that the circuit/location of switch and access points could be to blame. I could do more testing by swapping the location of the keypads and checking results but really do have other projects more pressing.

 

Once you helped me with the scene/programming I feel the ISY worked well and that my problems have been with either a bad Keypad link, questionable access points (or both) and circuit gremlins. Can I assume the first keypad link is flaky and replace it or is there more to it?

 

Thanks again for your support.

[LeeG]

RBC,

 

It is always possible that the KPL is defective but I would put that on the bottom of the possibility list.

 

When a device will reliably turn On but does not turn Off reliably the load it is controlling is always suspect. In this case the KPL buttons are Secondary buttons that cannot directly control a load. However, I would strong suspect either the load that KPL Main or ON button is controlling or something on that circuit is affecting the Off operation. Is the Program that is turning the Scene Off doing other things. Running multiple Scenes without a delay between the Scenes can create a problem. Insteon hardware will abort the currently running Scene if/when it detects another Scene has been initiated.

 

I realize this procedure is a pain but if you remove a KPL that is not responding and connect it to a 3-wire Appliance cord available from any home improvement store. These cords come with a plug on one end and bare wires on the other. This allows the KPL (or any Insteon wired device) power point to be moved to different circuits. In this case you would plug the KPL into the same circuit as the ISY PLM. If the KPL responds reliably then you are looking for interference on the original KPL circuit. If it is not reliable being powered from the same circuit as the ISY PLM then the device is suspect unless the Program is trying to run multiple Scenes.

 

Lee

[RBC]

Lee,

I only have the 3 scenes and the two programs on the ISY. The Off program simply turns off scene 3 at 10PM, nothing else.

As far as the suspect keypad goes, I did run the factory reset on the KPL before starting any ISY work. The C and D buttons showed up under "My Lighting" after I did the original linking process but are not programmed or used to control anything. They show Off under "current state" The load or ON button controls three incandescent porch light bulbs. The ON button is not included in any scenes or programs, just used manually to activate the porch lights.

 

The circuit that feeds the Keypad switch is a lighting circuit (no duplex plugs).

 

1. On load button---3 incandescent bulbs

2. Standard switch---4' fluorescent fixture

3. Standard switch---short rope light

4. Standard switch---incandescent bulb

5. Standard 3 way switch---4' fluorescent fixture

6. Insteon switch---3 incandescent bulbs

7. Insteon switch---1 incandescent bulb

8. Non Insteon photocell with motion sensor controlling incandescent bulb

 

Anything look suspicious here?

 

I plan on removing the suspect keypad and will follow your advice adding a pigtail plug. If I power the keypad from the same circuit as the ISY, I assume that not having the ON/load wire connected to anything should be OK. I will put this switch back in service linked with the ISY and see how the buttons respond. This may take me awhile but I will post my results.

 

RBC

[LeeG]

RBC

 

With an ISY26 I assume you have been using Insteon for some time with probably a pair of Access Points providing the coupling between the 2 120V legs.

 

The 2 florescent lights and the LED rope lights are possible sources of interference. Simple enough to have them Off when the KPL is not responsive to see if things improve.

 

Just cap the red load wire on the KPL for safety. It is normal for Insteon devices in a 3/4/5 way virtual circuit to not physically control any load.

 

Moving the KPL power point does not require any changes to the KPL or the ISY. All the links will remain and will be functional regardless of where the KPL is receiving power.

 

Lee

[RBC]

Hello again. It has been awhile but I thought this update should be included with this post.

 

After getting my program and scenes straightened out, I was seeing irregular control of my scenes and KPL button lights. The loads on the house circuit were questioned.

 

I thought I had the problem solved by switching to a different KPL that is physically located on another house circuit. For several months the system has worked perfectly or so I thought. Just recently I caught the system in error when I noticed the lights remaining on---after the programmed "off" time. I have only caught the error about three times, however since these lights are outside landscape lights there may have been additional times when they were left on as the lights are difficult to notice during daylight hours and the controlling Switchlinks are located in out of sight locations.

 

This still sounds like circuit load interference problems to me. The first KPL tried was really bad with errors occurring several times each week. The current KPL (located on a cleaner circuit--no flourescents) is much better with errors only happening like once a month on average.

 

Question---is this the best I should expect or can improvement be made either with hardware (filters,?) or moving locations for things like the ISY, the PLM, Access Points (I do have 4 Access points, 2 on each circuit leg) OR what do you think about adding additional lines to the program that would repeat the "OFF" command.

 

My "off" program says: if time is 10PM then turn off scene

 

could I use some redundancy by adding something like

 

if time is 10:01PM then turn off scene

if time is 10:02PM then turn off scene

 

This might give me better odds on getting the system to catch the ISY command?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated as I really want this system to be as close to 100% reliable as possible. Thanks.

[oberkc]

Question---is this the best I should expect or can improvement be made either with hardware (filters,?) or moving locations for things like the ISY, the PLM, Access Points (I do have 4 Access points, 2 on each circuit leg) OR what do you think about adding additional lines to the program that would repeat the "OFF" command.

 

Filters are your friend. The difficult part is finding the offending devices.

 

Moving location for the ISY can help, but that should be last resort. First....is your ISY near your computer system? Do you have power conditioners, UPS, surge suppressors, power supplies, etc..... Make sure your whole computer system is filtered. You PLM should not be on the filter. This one step may be enough to solve your problem.

 

If you want to experiment around, get an extension cord and plut the PLM into an outlet far removed from your computer system, home theater stuff, etc. See if this solves your problem. If so, then you have high confidence that a filter on your PC system will solve the problem.

 

You should expect near 100% reliability with insteon. I don't like the idea of adding additional lines. Solve the interference problem. You will be much happier.

[Sub-Routine]

I use a Repeat on my Outside Lights in the morning. I have one light that doesn't always react. It's on the end of a long wire run with no other Insteon devices on the circuit.

 

        Repeat 3 times
          Set Scene 'OL Morning' Off
          Wait  5 seconds

 

Cheaper and easier than adding another AccessPoint or other Insteon device.

 

Rand