atmit Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 I'm trying to set-up a home theater with 6 recessed lights (3 front lights and 3 back lights), each with its own In-line Linc dimmer, and 2 KPL switches in a 3-way circuit. I want to create 4 scenes: 1. 3 back lights 100% on level 2. All 6 lights on at 100% on level 3. All 6 lights on at 50% on level 4. All 6 lights on at 20% on level I got the KPLs, dimmers, and lights installed by an electrician, but I can't get the scenes to work. I am having two main problems: 1. When the lights are turned on, they blink repeatedly (I'd say between 100% and 80% on levels) 2. When the lights are turned on, they cannot be queried by the isy-99i. Any advice on how to set up the network in the ISY and how to prevent the blinking would be greatly appreciated.
LeeG Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Sounds like the devices are not wired correctly. Was the original configuration a 3-way circuit controlling the 6 lights? All the InLineLincs must be powered by unswitched 120V AC connected to the White (neutral) and Black (line) InLineLinc wires. The Red Load wire goes to the respective fixture. The KPLs must be powered by unswitched 120V AC with the same White (neutral) Black (line) connections. If the KPLs replaced standard 3-way switches the KPL Red load wire is capped (not connected to anything). You did not mention Access Points. Do you have two RF based devices such as Access Points for Dual Band LampLincs etc coupling the two 120V legs.
Brian H Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 What type of lights being controlled by the In-Line Linc Dimmer Switches? Like CFL, Low Voltage with a transformer, LED, standard incandescent bulb. Dimmers types many times do not get along with low voltage lights, CFLs, LED lights. The pulsing and no control when On also indicate you have a load not suitable for the dimmers. When on they are probably making all kinds of power line noise and causing communications problems with the query from your ISY99i. More information on the type of light will help in finding a solution to the problem.
atmit Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 Right now the configuration is a 3-way circuit controlling the 6 lights. So from what you say, it seems like the devices are not wired correctly. I read about problems with CFLs and LEDs before, so I am using regular incandescent bulbs right now. Eventually, I'd like to try some high-end LEDs, but I wanted to have the system working correctly before introducing other variables.
atmit Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 I don't seem to understand the phase coupling issue. I have a single PLM, which the SmartHome rep assures me is sufficient for my particular setup, but it seems that is not correct?
LeeG Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Generally houses are supplied with 240V AC which is comprised of 2 120V Legs which I will call leg A and leg B for this discussion. If the ISY PLM is plugged into 120V leg A and the KPLs and InlineLincs are connected to 120V leg B, the Insteon signals between the PLM and the KPL and InlineLincs will likely be unreliable. The Insteon signals have to travel out to the power company transformer on one leg, through the transformer back on the other leg. This is an unreliable path. A pair of Access Points are plugged into leg A and leg B such that the RF capability of the Access Points move the Insteon signals (couple) between the two 120V legs. Independent of the solution to the flashing lights, most Insteon installations require the two 120V legs to be coupled together. However, that would not explain the pulsing incandescent lights. I assume at this point that the devices (KPL and InLineLincs) are not being supplied from an unswitched 120V AC source that all wired Insteon devices require. Unless the electrician was familiar with Insteon devices in a Virtual 3-way circuit it is likely that either or both KPLs are not wired correctly for a Virtual 3-way circuit with the additional possibility that the InLineLincs controlling the lights are being supplied from the KPL Load connection rather than unswitched 120V AC. Without actually checking the wiring and measuring the 120V supply to each device I cannot be absolutely sure but that is where I would start looking. Do you have the capability to measure the AC voltage going to each KPL and InLineLinc? If the KPLs are not physically controlling some other load a simple check would be to look at the Red wires on each KPL. They should not be connected to anything unless the KPLs are also physically controlling some other load not mentioned in your previous post.
IndyMike Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Hello atmit, Phase coupling, or communicating across the legs of your utility transformer, has been around as long as powerline communication (X10 powerline from the 70's). Most homes are supplied with "split single phase" power from a utility transformer. The are three connections to the transformer - 120V-Leg1, neutral, and 120V -Leg2. Many people refer to the "Legs" coming off the transformer as "phases" because they are 180 degrees out of phase. Measuring from either 120V Leg to neutral will show 120V. Measuring from 120V-Leg1 to 120V-Leg2 will show 240V. Your breaker panel distributes both Leg1 and Leg2 voltages throughout your home. Devices communicating from Leg1 to Leg1 will be able to communicate directly (same for Leg2 to Leg2). Devices that are trying to communicate from Leg1 to Leg2 must do so through the utility transformer. Because the transformer can be some distance from your home (and has internal impedance or "resistance"), signals crossing from Leg1 to Leg2 will be attenuated (reduced). Smarthome has developed accesspoints which communicate between the Leg1 and Leg2 devices via RF. This eliminates the signal attenuation the normally occurs through your utility transformer. There are other "hardwired" devices that can couple the communication across the Legs of the transformer. Jeff Volp put together a nice tutorial on the subject here: http://jvde.us/x10/x10_couplers.htm. While Jeff put this together for X10 applications, it applies to Insteon as well. Terminology - Where Jeff refers to "Phase A and B" I am using "Leg1 and Leg2) above. I don't seem to understand the phase coupling issue. I have a single PLM, which the SmartHome rep assures me is sufficient for my particular setup, but it seems that is not correct?.
oberkc Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Right now the configuration is a 3-way circuit controlling the 6 lights. So from what you say, it seems like the devices are not wired correctly. I am not so sure that this is an issue. Can you control each light locally (by at least one switch directly)? If you are able to turn all your lights on by means of at least one switch, and all other switches have power (little LED is lit), then they are probably wired correctly. For now, I would focus on the phase coupling issue brought up by others.
LeeG Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 The lights are controlled by 6 individual InLineLincs so there is not the usual manual control by a paddle press without accessing the InLineLincs which are likely not in an easily accessed place. However, trying manual control is a good diagnostic approach if that is an option. If they manually turn On with the KPLs Off turn the KPLs On and see if that changes the symptom. How do you attribute the following incandescent light symptom to a coupling problem. 1. When the lights are turned on, they blink repeatedly (I'd say between 100% and 80% on levels)
oberkc Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 The lights are controlled by 6 individual InLineLincs so there is not the usual manual control by a paddle press without accessing the InLineLincs which are likely not in an easily accessed place. I guess this is true, but I saw "3-way" and "KPL", so I thought there may be a possibility that some were hooked up to the switches. Still, if there are indications of power to the various devices, then I continue to suspect they are wired correctly. The fact that the lights come (flash or otherwise) on makes me think they are wired properly. When the lights are turned on, they blink repeatedly (I'd say between 100% and 80% on levels) The lights blink, or the insteon devices blink? I assume he refers to the lights, themselves. I have experienced the actual device load (lights in most cases) flash when I have communication issues. (At least I think I have.) This all strikes me as communication issues.
atmit Posted June 27, 2010 Author Posted June 27, 2010 Ok, so I took the lights down to get access to the individual InLine Lincs. Here are my results: 1. With both KPLs ON, the green status light on the InLine Lincs is on, and I can also turn each light ON individually by pressing the InLine Linc "on" button. 2. With the 'master' KPL ON and the 'slave' KPL OFF, I see the same behavior. 3. With the 'master' KPL OFF and the 'slave' KPL ON, all green status lights are off, and I cannot turn each light ON individually by pressing the 'on' button. Is this indicative of a bad installation? About the phase coupling issue, I get from the previous replies that if all my devices are on the same leg (phase), I would only need a single PLM and no further access points. Is there a way to test that all devices are on the same leg?
atmit Posted June 27, 2010 Author Posted June 27, 2010 The lights blink, or the insteon devices blink? Yes, it is the lights themselves that are blinking. In some cases, I have observed that the lights remain steady, albeit dimmed at 50% or less. I have tried to reproduce this, but haven't been able to find the steps to make this happen.
IndyMike Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 3. With the 'master' KPL OFF and the 'slave' KPL ON, all green status lights are off, and I cannot turn each light ON individually by pressing the 'on' button. Is this indicative of a bad installation? This sounds as if the "master" KPL is providing power to the other devices (very possible if the original switches were 3-way). The KPL and Inlinelincs need continuous (unswitched) power to operate correctly. About the phase coupling issue, I get from the previous replies that if all my devices are on the same leg (phase), I would only need a single PLM and no further access points. Is there a way to test that all devices are on the same leg? This is normally done by inspection of the breaker panel. On most panels, the breakers alternate phase from top to bottom. Have a look at the Jeff Volp link that I provided above. He has an example layout for a typical panel. Not sure whether you want to try to correct this yourself or have your electrician back to correct. If you have the electrician back, explain that the switches require continuous power. Also ask whether the devices are on the same phase. Note that the devices "can" operate across the phases. Depending on the coupling through your transformer, operation will vary.
LeeG Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 The electrician wired the KPLs as though there were physically controlling the power to the InLineLincs. The InLineLincs, as with all wired Insteon devices, require unswitched 120V AC. It is also likely that the KPLs are wired as those they are conventional 3-way switches, which they are not. You can verify that by checking the Red wires on the KPLs. They should not be connected to anything unless the KPLs are physically controlling some other load. If the KPLs and the InLineLincs are on the same 120V leg you do not need coupling for these devices to control each other. Turn the circuit breaker(s) Off supplying the KPL and the Inlinelincs. If there are two breakers and they are on the same leg than coupling is not required. The ISY PLM has the same requirement. It must be on the same 120V leg as the KPLs and the InLineLincs for coupling not to be required. The same technique of turning off the circuit breakers supplying the PLM, KPLs and InLineLincs and determining if they are all on the same 120V leg. It is likely that having invested in an ISY you plan on a much larger Insteon usage where coupling is required. It is true that some houses using Insteon run without coupling but they are so rare as to make the need for Access Points (or equivalent) an assumed requirement. Electric appliances such as electric hot water heaters and electric clothes dryers that operate on 240V AC can provide coupling on an intermittent basis. Things work for a time and then become unreliable. Plan on needing Access Point function. They do make a hardwired coupler that is attached near the power panel. This approach does not allow the use of RF based Insteon devices which themselves require an Access Point (or equivalent) so starting with Access Points is a more logical approach.
atmit Posted June 27, 2010 Author Posted June 27, 2010 It seems the all Insteon devices are on the same leg as the PLM, so I'd assume that for now there are no coupling issues. Would the incorrect wiring explain the blinking and communication issues then? Is there anything I can do before the electrician comes back and corrects this problem?
LeeG Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 If they are all on the same 120V leg coupling is not required. There is nothing that can be done until the devices are wired correctly. Assuming the KPLs were not installed to physically control some other load (other lights) all the KPLs and all the InLineLincs must be wired to unswitched 120V neutral/line connections. They are basically electronic devices which require power at all times to function. All Insteon device control, that is, the KPLs controlling the InLineLinc are done with links (Scenes) between the devices established by the ISY device. This includes the KPLs LEDs being in sync with each other. KPLs are NOT 3-way switches despite having white/black/red wires which likely confused the electrician. Insteon devices in a Virtual 3/4 way configuration operate that way with links between the devices, not with traveler wires used by standard non-Insteon 3/4 way switches.
IndyMike Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 Would the incorrect wiring explain the blinking and communication issues then? Is there anything I can do before the electrician comes back and corrects this problem? Hello atmit, To be honest, I'd pull the airgap on the "master" kpl to kill the circuit. Since your KPL is a dimmer it's feeding a rather ugly output voltage to your other devices. At best, they will behave erratically (as you've noticed). Until the wiring is corrected, I'd suggest disabling to prevent someone from inadvertently activating the KPL. IM
LeeG Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 When determining whether multiple circuit breakers are on the same 120V leg keep in mind that breaker panels are NOT laid out with leg A on the left side and leg B on the right side. Leg A and Leg B circuits alternate vertically, Leg A, Leg B, Leg A, Leg B, Leg A etc vertically. Also do not depend on circuit breakers at the same level but on different sides (left and right) to be on the same 120V leg. Panels often start with a different leg at the very top position. The top left side breaker will be leg A while the top right side breaker can be leg B. The electrician should be able to tell you which leg each breaker is on. Be sure the electrician has access to the Quick Start guides for the KPLs and InLineLincs. They are written for the DIYer so an electrician should have no problem determining the wiring requirements.
atmit Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 So I finally got the electrician to come by the house and fix the wiring so that the In-LineLinc Dimmers had an unswitched power supply. With the correct wiring, it was easy to get the virtual 3-way by adding a button of each of the KPLs as a controller and the 6 In-LineLinc Dimmers as responders. Now, as specified in my first post, I want to create 4 mutually-exclusive scenes: A. 3 back lights 100% on level B. All 6 lights on at 100% on level C. All 6 lights on at 50% on level D. All 6 lights on at 20% on level To do this, I've added ALL buttons (for both KPLs) and ALL 6 InLineLinc Dimmers to each of the four scenes. For each of the scenes, all of the buttons and dimmers are responders, except for the button controlling each scene. For example, for scene A I have the following configuration: CONTROLLERS: KPL1-A KPL2-A RESPONDERS: KPL1-B - 0% on level KPL2-B - 0% on level KPL1-C - 0% on level KPL2-C - 0% on level KPL1-D - 0% on level KPL2-D - 0% on level InLine-back-1 - 100% on level InLine-back-2 - 100% on level InLine-back-3 - 100% on level InLine-front-1 - 0% on level InLine-front-2 - 0% on level InLine-front-3 - 0% on level and a similar configuration for the rest of the scenes, but with different on levels for the InLineLinc dimmers. Everything works fine, except that when I switch from scene A to scene B by pressing button 'B' for the first KPL, buttons 'A','B','C','D' for the second KPL turn ON. The first KPL correctly turns off button 'A' and turns on button 'B'. Any idea why the second KPL seems to be misbehaving? Please let me know if I should start a new thread instead, since this is a slightly off topic.
Sub-Routine Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Hi atmit, Turning On a scene will always turn on the KPL buttons in the scene. You will need to create a scene with only the three buttons and use a program to turn that scene Off when it sees the 4th button send an On. Rand
LeeG Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 atmit: most of my KPLs are older revisions. With that in mind none of the KPLs I just tested will turn Off a Secondary KPL button with an On command to 0% Bright level. That technique works with the Primary KPL button (ON in 6 button mode, Main in 8 button mode) and various single output unit devices such as a SwitchLinc and ICON switch. KPL Secondary buttons do not respond in the same way, at least on several KPLs I tested here. The solution is what Sub-Routine suggested, using a Program to issue an Off command to the Secondary buttons you want to turn Off.
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