I have a Polisy firmware 5.9.1  with a serial PLM, many dimmers, I/O lincs, plugs, door sensors, motion sensors and water sensors.  (probably left out some).

I have have had the same PLM for maybe 13 or 14 years without issue.  The past week I have noticed some programs not running and some lag with turning lights on and off.  I submitted a ticket and Michel was very helpful (as always), he first asked if I had any 10011 icons on any of my devices which I did have.  I cleared those and still had the issue.  He advised to move the PLM to a different plug that was not shared with anything else, which I did but still have the issue.  Doing some tests I noticed that sometimes I can turn on and off the lights with UDmobile a few times in a row with no issue then it stops and takes a bit of time to react or in a few seconds I try again and it works.  Usually when this happens, I go into admin console and a popup it says it cant communicate with a particular device but its never the light I was messing with (seems random of which device it shows).  Has an exclamation mark beside it which clears when I manually turn on that light.

Another thing I noticed is UDmobile or admin console always shows the correct status of a device that I have manually turned on or off no matter how many times or how fast I do it.  From the way it seems to me is the PLM has no issue receiving but has issues sending the commands to the devices (or I just dont understand how the PLM works). 

I read somewhere on this forum that i should click on "Show PLM link table" and if I see zero or no count then the PLM is bad.  Ive done this test 4 times, first test showed 170 second was 293, third was 292 and when I did the fourth just now it ended then popped up showing "Cannot communicate with computer room light" and now has an exclamation mark beside it (which is a dimmer and was off at the time).  My count on the forth is 292

I did order a new USB PLM just incase but from what I have told you, do you guys think that my PLM is finally failing?

 

Thanks in advance! 

The newer PLMs have updated firmware and hardware. The life of the PLM will vary depending on its enviroment, power surges in your home, etc. Being that your PLM is quite old it wouldn't hurt to replace it with a USB PLM. The USB PLMs are currently back ordered and expected in November

When you do a PLM link count the counts will always vary depending on the activity of your Polisy

The communication problem your having could be due to noise on the powerline, or a failing Insteon device. Electronice devices , such as a UPS, TV, or power supplies, can also cause powerline noise 

On a device that you're having a problem with, right click on it, then click in Diagnostics |  Show device link tables. After the table populates click on Compare. If you have any mismatched links then do a restore device 

1 hour ago, Techman said:

The newer PLMs have updated firmware and hardware. The life of the PLM will vary depending on its enviroment, power surges in your home, etc. Being that your PLM is quite old it wouldn't hurt to replace it with a USB PLM. The USB PLMs are currently back ordered and expected in November

When you do a PLM link count the counts will always vary depending on the activity of your Polisy

The communication problem your having could be due to noise on the powerline, or a failing Insteon device. Electronice devices , such as a UPS, TV, or power supplies, can also cause powerline noise 

On a device that you're having a problem with, right click on it, then click in Diagnostics |  Show device link tables. After the table populates click on Compare. If you have any mismatched links then do a restore device 

The devices are random and I would assume the same for all my devices as ive seen this issue with quite a few so far.

Thanks

The show PLM links and count needS to be done with no Insteon traffic occurring.

2 hours ago, hart2hart said:

The show PLM links and count needS to be done with no Insteon traffic occurring.

Aside from not turning lights on and of while doing it (which I didnt) how can you be sure there is no traffic?

Thanks

Aside from not turning lights on and of while doing it (which I didnt) how can you be sure there is no traffic?
Thanks

I usually get away by making sure everyone knows I’m doing a test and get a good count. If no one is doing it, it’s likely coming from programs so disable top most folder(s). If motion detectors or leak sensors are part of your setup, it’s more difficult to control. Also, you can look at log during the time frame to see what device had activity and then determine how to stop it for test.

10 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

I usually get away by making sure everyone knows I’m doing a test and get a good count. If no one is doing it, it’s likely coming from programs so disable top most folder(s). If motion detectors or leak sensors are part of your setup, it’s more difficult to control. Also, you can look at log during the time frame to see what device had activity and then determine how to stop it for test.

Ok ill try that thanks.  Does this seem like a signal noise issue or plm failing?

Edited September 6Sep 6 by Blackbird

Ok ill try that thanks.  Does this seem like a signal noise issue or plm failing?

It could be either.

There are the old noise trouble shooting steps of turning off breakers one at a time to see if the problem goes away. Typical question is was anything new added to house in the timeframe. However, it’s often a device that’s starts generating noise.

The only way to know for sure on PLM is getting a replacement or repairing it by doing capacitor replacements. I’ve been using serial PLM with serial to usb cable since Polisy came out FWIW so getting a new serial may be only way to be sure and I don’t think they have that big a downside.

How many devices do you have? Your link count appears to be about 292.

27 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

It could be either.

There are the old noise trouble shooting steps of turning off breakers one at a time to see if the problem goes away. Typical question is was anything new added to house in the timeframe. However, it’s often a device that’s starts generating noise.

The only way to know for sure on PLM is getting a replacement or repairing it by doing capacitor replacements. I’ve been using serial PLM with serial to usb cable since Polisy came out FWIW so getting a new serial may be only way to be sure and I don’t think they have that big a downside.

How many devices do you have? Your link count appears to be about 292.

The only thing I recently added was 3 switchbot temp sensors and 3 thirdreality shock zigbee sensors to Home assistant.  Is it just wired devices I would worry about causing noise?

I have 45 to 50 insteon devices in use.

Thanks

33 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

It could be either.

There are the old noise trouble shooting steps of turning off breakers one at a time to see if the problem goes away. Typical question is was anything new added to house in the timeframe. However, it’s often a device that’s starts generating noise.

The only way to know for sure on PLM is getting a replacement or repairing it by doing capacitor replacements. I’ve been using serial PLM with serial to usb cable since Polisy came out FWIW so getting a new serial may be only way to be sure and I don’t think they have that big a downside.

How many devices do you have? Your link count appears to be about 292.

Is it a difficult painful process to switch out the plm?  I do have a spare serial plm which I bought off a friend and am waiting for the US plm I bought.

40 minutes ago, Blackbird said:

Is it a difficult painful process to switch out the plm?  I do have a spare serial plm which I bought off a friend and am waiting for the US plm I bought.

For AC operated devices it is very easy with ISY tools. 

With battery operated devices it is a PITA. Each one needs to be put into linking mode and done individually. Until they are converted they will stall the process until each one's process gives up repeatedly. With 12 x MS-1s and 5 leak detectors, on batteries it usually took me the whole 8-10 hour day.

52 minutes ago, larryllix said:

For AC operated devices it is very easy with ISY tools. 

With battery operated devices it is a PITA. Each one needs to be put into linking mode and done individually. Until they are converted they will stall the process until each one's process gives up repeatedly. With 12 x MS-1s and 5 leak detectors, on batteries it usually took me the whole 8-10 hour day.

Yikes.  That does sound painful.

Is it a difficult painful process to switch out the plm?  I do have a spare serial plm which I bought off a friend and am waiting for the US plm I bought.

As Larry pointed out, it can be a time consuming process but it is actually an eISY strength. On tool bar put battery operated devices into delayed write mode. By doing this you can pick each battery operated device on at a time to put in linking mode and then write updates to them. I had 8 motion sensors and many leak sensors and it never took me more than an hour or two.

With that number of devices, 292 links sounds reasonable depending on how may scenes you created.

Did Michel have you to Restore PLM to ensure it’s got correct information. Even if it’s going bad, it might tell you it’s PLM as they are typically going bad over time not all at once. You just notice it when gets really bad. I do a restore once a 6 months to a year as a little insurance.

All that said, it could be line noise which more likely coming from an electronic devices so when I asked about adding devices, I meant things like chargers, TVs, etc as their power circuits are notoriously bad at either filtering/ suppressing the Insteon signal thinking it’s noise or injecting noise. Sure wished many times that I had a meter to see noise on the AC line. Long ago I added FilterLincs on every thing possible to minimize noise and have a list of devices without them (larger amperage) so if these issues crop up I can unplug them to test.

Did you try turning off breakers one at a time to see if issue stopped? Did Michel think it was noise or PLM?

3 hours ago, hart2hart said:

As Larry pointed out, it can be a time consuming process but it is actually an eISY strength. On tool bar put battery operated devices into delayed write mode. By doing this you can pick each battery operated device on at a time to put in linking mode and then write updates to them. I had 8 motion sensors and many leak sensors and it never took me more than an hour or two.

With that number of devices, 292 links sounds reasonable depending on how may scenes you created.

Did Michel have you to Restore PLM to ensure it’s got correct information. Even if it’s going bad, it might tell you it’s PLM as they are typically going bad over time not all at once. You just notice it when gets really bad. I do a restore once a 6 months to a year as a little insurance.

All that said, it could be line noise which more likely coming from an electronic devices so when I asked about adding devices, I meant things like chargers, TVs, etc as their power circuits are notoriously bad at either filtering/ suppressing the Insteon signal thinking it’s noise or injecting noise. Sure wished many times that I had a meter to see noise on the AC line. Long ago I added FilterLincs on every thing possible to minimize noise and have a list of devices without them (larger amperage) so if these issues crop up I can unplug them to test.

Did you try turning off breakers one at a time to see if issue stopped? Did Michel think it was noise or PLM?

No he didnt suggest to restore the PLM just gave me instructions on how to do it when I get a replacement.  Is the process different if you are restoring an existing PLM?

I didnt try the breakers yet but I think I will.

I think Michel was leaning more to line noise as he advised about moving the plm.  At the end he suggested speaking to Insteon but I thought I would give all of you a chance as you guys have helped me so much in the past years!

What does it mean that admin console and UDmobile are always accurate about the status of the devices when they are manually turned on but sometimes fail when turning them on with AC or UDmobile?  Does that mean the the PLM receives fine but has problems sending?  The reason I ask is if it was line noise, wouldnt that also effect how the PLM receives?

 

Thanks

 

 

No he didnt suggest to restore the PLM just gave me instructions on how to do it when I get a replacement.  Is the process different if you are restoring an existing PLM?
I didnt try the breakers yet but I think I will.
I think Michel was leaning more to line noise as he advised about moving the plm.  At the end he suggested speaking to Insteon but I thought I would give all of you a chance as you guys have helped me so much in the past years!
What does it mean that admin console and UDmobile are always accurate about the status of the devices when they are manually turned on but sometimes fail when turning them on with AC or UDmobile?  Does that mean the the PLM receives fine but has problems sending?  The reason I ask is if it was line noise, wouldnt that also effect how the PLM receives?
 
Thanks
 
 

Restoring existing PLM just rewrites the links inside PLM without the labor intensive need to update every other Insteon device. It’s quick and simple or has always been for me. Regardless, make sure you have great backups.

I get your logic about receiving vs sending but line noise has always been tricky to diagnose for me. Michel is the king.

It could be that the PLM receives signals fine but its signal strength for sending signals has reduced inside PLM or noise or signal suppression very near PLM plug is distorting or attenuating it. I once used a long extension cord to “move” PLM to another plug that I confirmed was on opposite 120 v leg and away from original location in breaker box as a test.

Is your PLM dual band because others reported plugging it into a FilterLinc to in effect force it to go RF to closest dual band device(s) which would eliminate a level of line noise.

2 hours ago, hart2hart said:

Restoring existing PLM just rewrites the links inside PLM without the labor intensive need to update every other Insteon device. It’s quick and simple or has always been for me. Regardless, make sure you have great backups.

I get your logic about receiving vs sending but line noise has always been tricky to diagnose for me. Michel is the king.

It could be that the PLM receives signals fine but its signal strength for sending signals has reduced inside PLM or noise or signal suppression very near PLM plug is distorting or attenuating it. I once used a long extension cord to “move” PLM to another plug that I confirmed was on opposite 120 v leg and away from original location in breaker box as a test.

Is your PLM dual band because others reported plugging it into a FilterLinc to in effect force it to go RF to closest dual band device(s) which would eliminate a level of line noise.

Thanks for the response.  Yes mine is dual band.  I dont have a filterlinc.  Maybe I should get one.

15 hours ago, Blackbird said:

Yikes.  That does sound painful.

It isn't that bad but when you do this once in a decade and there is not a lot of docs on a recently updated feature (as CPU based tech is these days, especially UDI products). Once you figure out the process on the first one and go with it, it accelerates.

IOW: My experience may be biased because I am a sucker for "bleeding edge". UDI has so much more techie labour assistance, these days.

3 hours ago, hart2hart said:

Restoring existing PLM just rewrites the links inside PLM without the labor intensive need to update every other Insteon device. It’s quick and simple or has always been for me. Regardless, make sure you have great backups.
<irrelevant issues snipped>

I don't believe this to be completely correct. Every Insteon device contains a link or many links that only address the current PLM IP address. When you chage that PLM IP address, every device needs to be reprogrammed to the new PLM to be able to communicate back and forth.

The comms between any Insteon devices an another Insteon device (including the PLM) is/are scene link(s) for each logical portion of the device. ie: statuses, commands from other and every ISY and device scene it is involved in.

I don't believe this to be completely correct. Every Insteon device contains a link or many links that only address the current PLM IP address. When you chage that PLM IP address, every device needs to be reprogrammed to the new PLM to be able to communicate back and forth.

The comms between any Insteon devices an another Insteon device (including the PLM) is/are scene link(s) for each logical portion of the device. ie: statuses, commands from other and every ISY and device scene it is involved in.

You are describing Restore PLM where the PLM is being replaced. (I think having a Replace PLM would make it clearer but command does double duty) I commented on when you restore PLM and it’s same PLM so nothing changes in devices. It’s in effect just a refresh PLM.

3 hours ago, hart2hart said:

You are describing Restore PLM where the PLM is being replaced. (I think having a Replace PLM would make it clearer but command does double duty) I commented on when you restore PLM and it’s same PLM so nothing changes in devices. It’s in effect just a refresh PLM.

Will I have to re add all of the wireless devices after I do a restore on my current plm?

Will any programs get messed up?

Thanks

Will I have to re add all of the wireless devices after I do a restore on my current plm?
Will any programs get messed up?
Thanks

Restore PLM with same PLM does not impact devices or programming. I did it about a month ago. It just rewrites all links inside PLM.

Again, make sure you have good backup in case something goes wrong.

1 hour ago, hart2hart said:

Restore PLM with same PLM does not impact devices or programming. I did it about a month ago. It just rewrites all links inside PLM.

Again, make sure you have good backup in case something goes wrong.

Well I said that UDmobile always showed the correct status but now its delayed as well.  I did turn off each breaker one at a time and no difference.  I will try to restore my existing plm.

thanks

Just tried to restore the PLM and got an error after 1% "Failed writing PLM master link (Kitchen Light) [-200000/-3]. Driver not found [[Unknown ] 0240 ] "  Tried it twice and same issue.  I disabled the Kitchen light then it made it to 3% and came up with the same error but this time for the "Computer room light"

Edited September 8Sep 8 by Blackbird

Just tried to restore the PLM and got an error after 1% "Failed writing PLM master link (Kitchen Light) [-200000/-3]. Driver not found [[unknown ] 0240 ] "  Tried it twice and same issue.  I disabled the Kitchen light then it made it to 3% and came up with the same error but this time for the "Computer room light"

This is a major error and I read it that the PLM is refusing to be written to. What do you get when you check PLM status?

It feels the best advice I can give at this point is to enter a critical UD ticket. Firstly, the PLM does sound bad but a factory reset and then another restore may fix it. However, when doing a Restore PLM, it queues up all the PLM links and then executes them one at a time. Taking additional steps would be best under UD direction to ensure you don’t compound a simple problem that they know how to fix quickly.

37 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

This is a major error and I read it that the PLM is refusing to be written to. What do you get when you check PLM status?

It feels the best advice I can give at this point is to enter a critical UD ticket. Firstly, the PLM does sound bad but a factory reset and then another restore may fix it. However, when doing a Restore PLM, it queues up all the PLM links and then executes them one at a time. Taking additional steps would be best under UD direction to ensure you don’t compound a simple problem that they know how to fix quickly.

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