Random KPL programming issues

[Guest]

One opption I have is a 50 foot ethernet cable to drag teh ISY around teh house. and plug it in next to the device. It would be a PIA but it would work.

 

That might help to create your initial links, but how will that help in the long term? Eventually you're going to need to park the ISY/PLM somewhere, and leave it there.

 

If you want to use the ISY and PLM, you'll need to find a good spot for it and make sure you have good communication from there.

 

WHY? I am only using it to create links right now as it is UNRELIABLE with the PLM to do scedules etc. If and when SH fixes the PLM fine I will use the ISY for more of its intended purposes.

 

I am sorry I spent the money at this point. THe ISY seems GREAT "but" if the PLM is to weak to communicate reliably then it is the weak link killing the system. There should be NO communication failures with a PLM if the PLC works fine from the same outlet. What did they screw up with the PLM and are they willing to fix it.

 

It looks like I have no choice but to go back to Houselinc and the PLC to do my linking and HOPE that the PLM is fixed someday. I just got a bunch of new Insteon devices in and I am trying to install them. So far no problems with paddles with the new versions (yesssssssssss). But if I do have problems I am out of luck as I did not buy them from SH. SH prices are WAY to high to shop there unless is 20% off.

 

Or..... there is always Ebay everything and stick with X-10.

[Michel Kohanim]

Digger,

 

Please note that in most (if not all) cases, the reason behind believing PLC/HL has no communications problem is due to the fact that PLC/HL combination do not report errors as ISY does. Just to be precise, there are MANY cases where the PLC/HL combination do not write the 2nd half of any link and you are left with 1/2 or missing links which, then, ISY has to contend with especially if you do a crawl.

 

If your system has noise (even if intermittently) then rest assured that your PLC/HL combination have to deal with the same exact issues as ISY/PLM. This I guarantee you!

 

All this said, I am absolutely not inferring that you should stick with ISY/PLM combination simply because you've been through a lot and I don't want our product to be yet another source for dissatisfaction with INSTEON.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

One opption I have is a 50 foot ethernet cable to drag teh ISY around teh house. and plug it in next to the device. It would be a PIA but it would work.

 

That might help to create your initial links, but how will that help in the long term? Eventually you're going to need to park the ISY/PLM somewhere, and leave it there.

 

If you want to use the ISY and PLM, you'll need to find a good spot for it and make sure you have good communication from there.

 

WHY? I am only using it to create links right now as it is UNRELIABLE with the PLM to do scedules etc. If and when SH fixes the PLM fine I will use the ISY for more of its intended purposes.

 

I am sorry I spent the money at this point. THe ISY seems GREAT "but" if the PLM is to weak to communicate reliably then it is the weak link killing the system. There should be NO communication failures with a PLM if the PLC works fine from the same outlet. What did they screw up with the PLM and are they willing to fix it.

 

It looks like I have no choice but to go back to Houselinc and the PLC to do my linking and HOPE that the PLM is fixed someday. I just got a bunch of new Insteon devices in and I am trying to install them. So far no problems with paddles with the new versions (yesssssssssss). But if I do have problems I am out of luck as I did not buy them from SH. SH prices are WAY to high to shop there unless is 20% off.

 

Or..... there is always Ebay everything and stick with X-10.

[MikeB]

WHY? I am only using it to create links right now as it is UNRELIABLE with the PLM to do scedules etc. If and when SH fixes the PLM fine I will use the ISY for more of its intended purposes.

 

OK, I wasn't aware you were looking to JUST create device to device links right now.

 

I am sorry I spent the money at this point. THe ISY seems GREAT "but" if the PLM is to weak to communicate reliably then it is the weak link killing the system. There should be NO communication failures with a PLM if the PLC works fine from the same outlet. What did they screw up with the PLM and are they willing to fix it.

 

I can't say. In my home, I didn't really have any major PLC or PLM communication issues. Maybe because they're plugged into a small circuit in my basement pretty close to my main panel. But, even if the PLM is not as strong as the PLC, you can get it to communicate reliably - as others here have. That's what I'd be working on if you want a good, working system.

 

I'm not saying SmartHome shouldn't improve the strength of the PLM, I'm simply trying to offer YOU advice.

[Guest]

I add a new device and the PLM locks up and I have to uplug it wait and plug it back in. I try and add that new device to a scene and I get a request failed. I then try and turn on or off a device (any) and no response. I unplug the PLM, wait, plug it back in and I can control the devices again.

 

THE PLM IS HORRIBLE!!!!!

[buzz]

1. Activation by pressing a button.

2. Yup.

 

Hope this helps. As i said in my other reply, i got most of the issues fixed manually by adding the misbehaving buttons to the scenes and removing them, so everything is working well at this point. All except 1 of my KPLs is 1.5, the last one is 1.4, but all of them are experiencing the same issue. But what i experience is definitely fixable thru ISY since my linking/delinking to a scene in ISY's interface fixes it. It has something to do with the restore devices preserving original links, though, on 2nd thought that cant be possible, since these were brand new, where hardly any of the buttons have ever been linked....hmmm.

 

Hello buzz,

 

I am so sorry to hear you've been having these issues. We do understand the value of diagnostics/debugging tools and we are working on some as we speak.

 

Question:

1. By "turning on a scene" do you mean activation through ISY or activation by pressing a button?

2. Just to understand it correctly so that we can pinpoint the problem: you added some KPLs without importing existing links and some others with importing existing links?

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback/workaround suggestion,

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I just started using ISY yesterday and have been wondering whats going on. I have a few scenes setup and everytime i turn one of them on, the correct KPL button turns on but random other buttons on other KPLs turn on too. No idea why and it's really frustrating. I'm using RC1 and tried airgap, etc and nothing worked. I think it's happening because when i added the KPLs I added some of them with "keep existing links" thinking it'll spider my network easier. Restore devices does nothing cuz i think it remembered the existing links. What i need is a tool similar to what i used to use in Homeseer where i can just view the link table and kill off anything that i dont recognize.

[Guest]

Well redownloaded everything from Houselinc and so far so good. The ISY will have to go back in the box until the new PLM's are out. Its a shame but it just didnt work.

[yardman 49]

I have lots of request failed messages and failures to communicate with random devices. I did not have anywhere near as many problems with the PLC and I think its the PLM and nothing to do with the ISY itself.

 

Over on Techmall someone mentioned that the new PLM's have problems and we should wait for the even newer ones in the works (Version 62 or higher??). Not sure of the detials or accuracy of that.

 

I am thinking going back to houselinc, reprogram everything, and then use the crawl method with the ISY. I guess that will make more of a mess though when the PLM cant talk to all of the devices.

 

Seems like no easy way out of this at the moment. The ball is in SH court once again.

 

Hello Digger:

 

I can empathize. I had the same problems with my system. PLC seemed to work, PLM did not.

 

It took quite a while to get the bugs worked out. But reliability is good now.

 

It would be great if SH could get the PLM to the point of reliability that the switches are at. It seems that you almost never hear of Insteon inter-switch communication issues unless there is really a HUGE amount of interference on a home network. But the PLM seems much less tolerant of these problems.

 

But then again, I never knew if there was a problem with the PLC since Houselinc would not pop up any "communication error" messages as the ISY does. Part of the issue may be the way that Houselinc communicated with the devices. Any programming changes would not take effect until you "downloaded" them to the network, unlike the ISY where changes are instantaneous. If there were problems with the Houselinc/PLC/device communications, Houselinc most probably just kept trying, whereas the ISY tries four times and then stops trying.

 

So the end result is that the ISY/PLM may actually be exposing network weaknesses that were there all along, but that could not be seen through Houselinc, since the errors weren't "in your face" as it were.

 

That being said, the PLM is certainly the "deafest" Insteon device that I've encountered.

 

Best wishes,

[Guest]

I have lots of request failed messages and failures to communicate with random devices. I did not have anywhere near as many problems with the PLC and I think its the PLM and nothing to do with the ISY itself.

 

Over on Techmall someone mentioned that the new PLM's have problems and we should wait for the even newer ones in the works (Version 62 or higher??). Not sure of the detials or accuracy of that.

 

I am thinking going back to houselinc, reprogram everything, and then use the crawl method with the ISY. I guess that will make more of a mess though when the PLM cant talk to all of the devices.

 

Seems like no easy way out of this at the moment. The ball is in SH court once again.

 

Hello Digger:

 

I can empathize. I had the same problems with my system. PLC seemed to work, PLM did not.

 

It took quite a while to get the bugs worked out. But reliability is good now.

 

It would be great if SH could get the PLM to the point of reliability that the switches are at. It seems that you almost never hear of Insteon inter-switch communication issues unless there is really a HUGE amount of interference on a home network. But the PLM seems much less tolerant of these problems.

 

But then again, I never knew if there was a problem with the PLC since Houselinc would not pop up any "communication error" messages as the ISY does. Part of the issue may be the way that Houselinc communicated with the devices. Any programming changes would not take effect until you "downloaded" them to the network, unlike the ISY where changes are instantaneous. If there were problems with the Houselinc/PLC/device communications, Houselinc most probably just kept trying, whereas the ISY tries four times and then stops trying.

 

So the end result is that the ISY/PLM may actually be exposing network weaknesses that were there all along, but that could not be seen through Houselinc, since the errors weren't "in your face" as it were.

 

That being said, the PLM is certainly the "deafest" Insteon device that I've encountered.

 

Best wishes,

 

Yep I agree with everything you said. Hopefully they will work it all out.

 

Thanks!

[MikeB]

I'm experiencing some very odd KPL programming issues here that I wanted to share, and see if anyone else was experiencing.

 

I haven't spent time to troubleshoot the way I should yet, but maybe if someone else is seeing something similar it will help me track it down.

 

The scenario usually plays out like this:

 

- I decide to make dramatic programming changes on a KPL or 2 for some reason (I replace it, I change the buttons around, etc.)

- I sometimes completely remove the device, add it, and reprogram the links.

- Everything works great, but hours later I will notice that a DIFFERENT KPL is all of a sudden having issues. Either some of the buttons are no longer controlling the devices they should be controlling, or they are no longer sending their status to the ISY, or they are lighting up at times when they should not be.

- Running a restore device on the KPL does not seem to fix it.

- Removing the KPL from the ISY, re-adding it, and reprogramming the links fixes it.

- Everything works great until the next time I need to make changes or reprogram a KPL

 

Standard links between SwitchLincs never seem to get disrupted.

 

Anyone seeing anything similar?

 

I'd like to bring this thread back on track. I experienced this issue again the other day. After removing and re-adding a KPL I had to troubleshoot an unrelated issue, the ISY stopped seeing status changes on a completely different and unrelated KPL. I tried a Restore Device on the KPL, which did not help.

 

A Restore PLM DID, however, bring my KPL back to life. I'm curious if anyone else has the same results.

[Brignolo]

I recently restored my 6 button KPL (2486D Version 2A) to the 8 button version. When the 6 button was up and running I could push one of the 4 single buttons "ON" and it would show "ON" in the ISY-26 Device Window as "ON" (or off as the case would be).

 

Since the conversion, I cannot get the B-H buttons to show up in the Device Window at all. There is virtually (no pun intended) no response in the ISY-26 Device window when buttons B-H are pushed. There is for button A (the local load controller.)

 

I have "Queryed" and "Restored" but no joy.

 

Any ideas?

 

Joe

[yardman 49]

I recently restored my 6 button KPL (2486D Version 2A) to the 8 button version. When the 6 button was up and running I could push one of the 4 single buttons "ON" and it would show "ON" in the ISY-26 Device Window as "ON" (or off as the case would be).

 

Since the conversion, I cannot get the B-H buttons to show up in the Device Window at all. There is virtually (no pun intended) no response in the ISY-26 Device window when buttons B-H are pushed. There is for button A (the local load controller.)

 

I have "Queryed" and "Restored" but no joy.

 

Any ideas?

 

Joe

 

 

You might try removing the KPL from the ISY, and then readding it. If that fixes the problem, you might let Michel know.

 

Are you using firmware 2.6?

 

Best wishes,

[Brignolo]

Frank:

 

Yes, I am using 2.6. I tried the removal/adding again process once, but I'll try it again.

 

Thank you.

 

I need those "ON's" and "OFF's" to show up to trigger my programmed scenes...

 

I'm expecting the ISY-99i any day now and when I do my migration I want everything to be clean.

 

Joe

[Michel Kohanim]

Brignolo,

 

KPL sub-buttons do NOT show up (and never have) in the summary table simply because their status is implied and not explicit. This said, however, rest assured that if each tree node representing the button shows the correct status when you use the buttons, then your programs shall function correctly.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Frank:

 

Yes, I am using 2.6. I tried the removal/adding again process once, but I'll try it again.

 

Thank you.

 

I need those "ON's" and "OFF's" to show up to trigger my programmed scenes...

 

I'm expecting the ISY-99i any day now and when I do my migration I want everything to be clean.

 

Joe

[yardman 49]

Hello Michel:

 

I guess I missed something. I didn't think that Brignolo was speaking about the summary table, but about the Device window for each of his secondaries.

 

If that is the case, then I would expect the secondary status for that button to update if the button is pressed on th KPL.

 

I know that a network or device query won't show the secondary status, and also that if a network query is done that the previous infered status will not display the next time that the GUI is launced.

 

But the only time that my ISY secondary KPL status displays would not work at all was quite a while ago (2.4.13, I think), when I had to remove and re-add a KPL from the ISY to fix a similar problem.

 

Since then, whenever I've pressed a KPL secondary, the ISY GUI will update the secondary's Device window with the correct current status.

 

Best wishes,

[yardman 49]

Frank:

 

Yes, I am using 2.6. I tried the removal/adding again process once, but I'll try it again.

 

Thank you.

 

I need those "ON's" and "OFF's" to show up to trigger my programmed scenes...

 

I'm expecting the ISY-99i any day now and when I do my migration I want everything to be clean.

 

Joe

 

Hello Joe:

 

Have you tried this approach: remove the KPL from the ISY (which should remove all associated links), then do a "Factory Reset" on the KPL, then add it back to the ISY using "Add Insteon Device"?

 

I'm also assuming that your KPL is version 1.4.

 

In addition, you may want to try MkeB's approach. He reported that doing a "Restore PLM" fixed his related problem. Be aware that doing a "Restore PLM", can take quite a bit of time if you have lots of Insteon devices, so be patient.

 

Best wishes,

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Frank / Joe,

 

I am so very sorry for not reading the post more thoroughly. Frank, you are correct ... at this point, the best thing to do is to remove and add it back.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hello Michel:

 

I guess I missed something. I didn't think that Brignolo was speaking about the summary table, but about the Device window for each of his secondaries.

 

If that is the case, then I would expect the secondary status for that button to update if the button is pressed on th KPL.

 

I know that a network or device query won't show the secondary status, and also that if a network query is done that the previous infered status will not display the next time that the GUI is launced.

 

But the only time that my ISY secondary KPL status displays would not work at all was quite a while ago (2.4.13, I think), when I had to remove and re-add a KPL from the ISY to fix a similar problem.

 

Since then, whenever I've pressed a KPL secondary, the ISY GUI will update the secondary's Device window with the correct current status.

 

Best wishes,

[Brignolo]

Everyone:

 

I'm running version 2A on the KPL. I will try removing the KPL and adding it again.

 

It is the Device Window to which I'm referring.

 

I will try everything posted here and get back to you.

 

Joe

 

...and Thanks!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Joe,

 

2A!

 

Does the device show up as LampLincs? If so, please do be kind enough to bear with us till our next release (next week sometime) within which we have put a lot of workaround for KPL issues.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Everyone:

 

I'm running version 2A on the KPL. I will try removing the KPL and adding it again.

 

It is the Device Window to which I'm referring.

 

I will try everything posted here and get back to you.

 

Joe

 

...and Thanks!

[Brignolo]

No, they don't show up as LampLincs.

 

I removed the KPL and then added by the "Linking" command.

 

Everything is working as anticipated. Thanks to everyone.

 

One interesting thing did occur: When the linking process was finished, it had created 5 new scenes. 2 "Scene 80's" 2 "Scene 1's" and one "Scene 39." The 80's had the same devices in them and the 1's had a different set of devices in them. The 39 yet another.

 

I'll delete them of course and proceed, but has this happened to anyone else?

 

Joe

[Sub-Routine]

KeypadLincs are mysterious creatures.

 

My KPL 1.5 is a version 2A, I have to believe the 1.6 would be different. My 1.5 works with the ISY as well as my 1.4 (v28) does.

 

BTW, tap linking, due to Insteon protocol, seems to be more accurate than software linking.

 

Rand

[Brignolo]

Yes, they are.

 

I ALWAYS use tap linking instead of software linking...Life's too short!

[TJF1960]

I'm experiencing some very odd KPL programming issues here that I wanted to share, and see if anyone else was experiencing.

 

I haven't spent time to troubleshoot the way I should yet, but maybe if someone else is seeing something similar it will help me track it down.

 

The scenario usually plays out like this:

 

- I decide to make dramatic programming changes on a KPL or 2 for some reason (I replace it, I change the buttons around, etc.)

- I sometimes completely remove the device, add it, and reprogram the links.

- Everything works great, but hours later I will notice that a DIFFERENT KPL is all of a sudden having issues. Either some of the buttons are no longer controlling the devices they should be controlling, or they are no longer sending their status to the ISY, or they are lighting up at times when they should not be.

- Running a restore device on the KPL does not seem to fix it.

- Removing the KPL from the ISY, re-adding it, and reprogramming the links fixes it.

- Everything works great until the next time I need to make changes or reprogram a KPL

 

Standard links between SwitchLincs never seem to get disrupted.

 

Anyone seeing anything similar?

 

I have resurrected this thread because I am now experiencing similar problems and I really didn’t see a resolution to the problem, or what is causing the problem.

 

It seems to have started when I removed a KPL for some tests I was running. I reset the KPL before linking it back into the ISY. I put all the buttons back into the original scenes and corrected all of the programs tied to the KPL.

 

Later that day I noticed 1 or 2 buttons on another KPL which were no longer operating scenes they are involved in. I removed the buttons from the scenes then put them back in. Sometimes that would work, other times I had to delete the scene and then re-create it.

 

After getting those scenes/KPLs working I would find buttons on other KPLs not working scenes. I get those fixed and others quit working. Chasing my tail around here trying to figure out what is going on.

 

What am I doing wrong? How is the best way to proceed?

 

Restoring the plm was discussed earlier in this thread, but it seem that requires setting all the motion sensors and remotelincs into setup mode. Is that really necessary? Isnt the setup timeout period of the wireless devices shorter than is required to restore the plm?

 

Thanks,

Tim

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Tim,

 

The main question is this:

How did you first start linking your devices into ISY? If you imported everything, in all likelihood there we missing links (orphaned) in other devices and now they are just showing up. Please note that responders DO still respond even if the controller no longer has a link to it. As such, even if you factory reset the KPL, if the responders had half links, then you would see all sorts of "unexplainable" behavior.

 

That's why I always recommend starting fresh and implementing small sections at a time.

 

Or, you could use the diagnostics tools to go through each and every device that responds incorrectly (NOT your KPL) and see if there are any mismatches between what ISY thinks they should have and what they have.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[bclarke01]

Michel, is there a thread on the Wiki someplace that goes into details about using the Diagnostic info to troubleshoot?

 

I can do a factory reset on a KPL and then "restore" it from ISY but a subsequent Compare shows many inconsistencies reported. But I have not been able to find the recommended methods for correcting the inconsistencies.

 

Is there a thread somewhere that goes into what is reported and how to address it?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello bclark01,

 

Unfortunately, there's not one thread that discusses all of these issues.

 

From what I gather, it seems that ISY is not able to write into your KPL OR that your KPL is not being factory reset correctly. Can you try the following please:

1. Factory reset your KPL

2. Go to Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Link Table and choose your KPL

3. Click on Start

 

This should return no records whatsoever. If it does, then your KPL is not being factory reset and might be faulty.

 

If this returns nothing, then please do a Restore on your KPL again. At this point, compare should bring back identical records in ISY and your KPL. If it does not, please do ensure that you are not getting any device comm errors. If you are getting any device comm. errors, then we have to figure out why ISY cannot communicate with your KPL.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Michel, is there a thread on the Wiki someplace that goes into details about using the Diagnostic info to troubleshoot?

 

I can do a factory reset on a KPL and then "restore" it from ISY but a subsequent Compare shows many inconsistencies reported. But I have not been able to find the recommended methods for correcting the inconsistencies.

 

Is there a thread somewhere that goes into what is reported and how to address it?