All Lights Off

[PBusby]

What's the best way to turn off all the lights in the house? I currently use a scene activated by a KPL button press. There a several dozen responders in the scene however and they don't all always turn off when the button is pressed.

[fitzpatri8]

You'll want to figure out why the signal isn't reaching all your devices. Which dual-band units are you using to couple the two legs of your electric system? Have you confirmed that they are talking to each other and installed on opposite legs?

[PBusby]

The legs are coupled properly. I should add the devices that occasionally don't turn off are almost always KPL buttons used control scenes not loads.

[oberkc]

Have you tried temporarily moving your PLM to a different location and circuit (use extension cord if necessar) to see if that clears up any communication issues?

[PBusby]

Yes. The PLM is now on a circuit in a receptacle that I believe is as close to the electrical panels as possible. I have 2 panels, 1 main one that primarily has the breakers for my electric heat and the secondary which has most of the rooms' breakers. I don't know if 2 panels makes a difference.

[Vipola]

Scene is a best way then program in my opinion

 

for more discussion about that topic:

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=6293

 

in your case maybe you need to add a few rf access point

[oberkc]

Yes. The PLM is now on a circuit in a receptacle that I believe is as close to the electrical panels as possible. I have 2 panels, 1 main one that primarily has the breakers for my electric heat and the secondary which has most of the rooms' breakers. I don't know if 2 panels makes a difference.

 

I would not expect two panels to be a big issue (many hear report having more than one), but theory and reality are often at odds with one another. So long as you are confident you have both legs coupled, I would think two, properly located access points would be enough. Still, my recollection is that some report using four access points in 2-panel systems. Even if you are confident that yours are located properly, it is pretty easy to try different locations to see if this solves (or has any affect at all on) your problems.

 

It is always possible that you have a faulty device (none of yours show up on the ISY device list as v35, do they?). If one assumes they are all good, any you have proper coupling of electrical legs, there is not much left but communication problems. The source of these are not always easy to identify, but if moving PLMs, access points, and plug-in modules to different locations tends to cause things to work better or differently, this tends to point to comm problems, in my mind.

[fitzpatri8]

I didn't see any mention of an active coupler.

 

A split single phase electric system supplies about half the house on one 120 leg, half on the other, then uses both together to power 220 appliances like electric stoves and dryers and heaters. Unless you have installed some device designed specifically to couple the two legs, a power line signal will either have to travel all the way past your neighbors, across the power company transformer, then back, or else through a 220 volt device not designed for the purpose (a 220 volt electric space heater, an electric hot water heater, an electric clothes dryer or an electric oven or the like, and only when the heating element is energized). Lack of active coupling would certainly explain why signals aren't reliably reaching some devices.

[oberkc]

I didn't see any mention of an active coupler.

The legs are coupled properly.

 

I took this second quote (from the third post) as indication the PBusby has a certain level of confidence in the communication across electrical legs of his/her electrical system. Perhaps I read too much into this.

[PBusby]

I have already replaced all of my .v35 dimmers and relays but not KPLs because it is my understanding they aren't causing problems. The access points are correctly coupling the two legs. Two dual-band devices also couple across the legs. My wireless devices work fine. I don't believe my 900 Mhz phone is interfering with them. I have a passive coupler installed at the dryer left over from my x10 days. I have an electric dryer and water heater on 220v. All of my Comfort Cove heaters for the house are 220v. There are eleven zones of these each on their own breaker. I have numerous filters (again left over from x10 on electronic power supplies, TVs, stereo equipment, etc. So, I suppose there can still be noise issues but another question I have is how many devices will fire out of a scene reliably--unlimited, 100, 25, 10, what? The two scenes in question turn off all downstairs devices and buttons, and the other turns off all devices and buttons. The first has 95 devices and buttons the other 158. Is this too many to handle?

[LeeG]

PBusby

 

There is no limit to the number of devices that can react to a Scene command. The ISY issues a Group Broadcast message containing the particular Scene (Group) number. All Insteon devices capable of receiving Insteon messages look at the Group Broadcast message and scan their respective link database for a match to the Controller (PLM) Insteon address and Scene (Group) number. If a match is found the device reacts, essentially having all the devices react near simultaneously. If the Group Broadcast message fails to reach a particular device of course it will not respond. That is why powerline reliability is so important.

 

There have been cases where a device will turn On but have difficulty turning Off if the load it controls is generating noise. Some CFLs can cause this.

 

Lee

[PBusby]

Okay, thanks for the clarification Lee. It appears I have some noise issues then.

[Zellarman]

The legs are coupled properly. I should add the devices that occasionally don't turn off are almost always KPL buttons used control scenes not loads.

I think most here may have missed the obvious when you said this.

 

So let me ask, do all the loads go off with your all off scene?

 

A KPL button (other than the load controlling ones, either the top button on a 6 button KPL, or top left on an 8 button KPL) will not go off with the devices it controls. They need to be added to the all off scene individually. If you're expecting them to go off as a response to synching programs (some people here create scenes and programs specifically so KPL buttons track the status of devices or scenes) it's possible that there's simply too much PLC traffic taking place when you press the all off button. I've had similar problems with KPL buttons properly tracking statices, adding a delay in these synching programs by a second or two, some at 0, some at 1 second, and others at 2 second delays took care of this issue for me, granted, it takes two seconds before ALL KPL buttons turn off, but the lights still all go off with the button press.

[PBusby]

Zellarman,

I've created scenes and programs like that which work most of the time.but I was hoping that I was missing something that made this work more elegantly. I still think I have some noise issues but I also think (as you do) that there can be too much PLC traffic sometimes which could be caused or exacerbated by short delayed programs cleaning up status on several devices to keep them in sync. However, maybe I'm still stuck in the old X10 world way of looking at this and don't fully understand Insteon group messaging...?

[oberkc]

However, maybe I'm still stuck in the old X10 world way of looking at this and don't fully understand Insteon group messaging

 

I have no clue what is Insteon Group Messaging. So far, this lack of understanding has not hindered my use of insteon.

 

I suspect the phrase used in the insteon standard is "scene". In my mind, a scene is analogous to a set of devices all having the same X-10 address, with the ability to define some as transmitters of, others as responders to, or some as both transmitters AND responders to that address.

 

To me, introducing "group" terminology adds an unecessary complication into the picture.

[apostolakisl]

However, maybe I'm still stuck in the old X10 world way of looking at this and don't fully understand Insteon group messaging

 

I have no clue what is Insteon Group Messaging. So far, this lack of understanding has not hindered my use of insteon.

 

I suspect the phrase used in the insteon standard is "scene". In my mind, a scene is analogous to a set of devices all having the same X-10 address, with the ability to define some as transmitters of, others as responders to, or some as both transmitters AND responders to that address.

 

To me, introducing "group" terminology adds an unecessary complication into the picture.

 

I wouldn't think of a scene like sharing an x10 address, it will unfairly constrict your expectations on what you can accomplish with Insteon. With Insteon, the same device can be in multiple scenes each with a completely different assortment of devices. You can even have multiple scenes with the exact same devices, just having them behave differently. It is only like sharing an x10 address if your device was able to simultaneously have a dozens (or more) x10 addresses.

[LeeG]

The term Scene and Group are synonymous.

 

If a person’s background is the Insteon hardware, the term Group is what is understood. The term Scene does not appear in the Insteon Command document or the PLM development guide. From the hardware side everything is a Group. When a button/paddle is pressed a Group protocol message sequence is initiated with a Group number in the message identifying the button/paddle pressed.

 

If a person’s background is from an external view point only then Scene is what is understood. All the sales related documents and the Smarthome web pages discuss Scenes.

 

Bottom line, a Group is a Scene is a Group.

[oberkc]

With Insteon, the same device can be in multiple scenes each with a completely different assortment of devices. You can even have multiple scenes with the exact same devices, just having them behave differently. It is only like sharing an x10 address if your device was able to simultaneously have a dozens (or more) x10 addresses.

 

You are, of course, correct. Thanks for the amplification.

 

Bottom line, a Group is a Scene is a Group.

 

My opinion is that the term "scene" is the one that we external users see in the literature and ISY admin panel. The intoduction of a "group" term helps such users not (at best) and adds confusion to some, based on my observation of the forums here. I percieved PBusby as an external user, such as myself.

[LeeG]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an external only user. Many users are very happy staying with the externals, never crossing over to the dark side. For those who want to expand into understanding "how" things work, “why†they work the way they do, analyzing the Event Trace Insteon commands and associated responses, it is necessary to move into hardware publications where the terminology is different. Even the insteondetails.pdf document on the insteon.net site does not mention the term Scene, everything is in the context of a Group. One might wish the left and right hand used the same words but that is not the Insteon reality. Engineers look at the world one way, peddlers look at the world differently. Nature of the beast.

[oberkc]

analyzing the Event Trace Insteon commands and associated responses

 

I must admit that the ability to read those events would, in times of trouble, be nice. Still, I have too many hobbies already and, as much as I enjoy my playing with my lighting system, I enjoy it even more when I don't have to play with it.

[PBusby]

I must admit that the ability to read those events would, in times of trouble, be nice. Still, I have too many hobbies already and, as much as I enjoy my playing with my lighting system, I enjoy it even more when I don't have to play with it.

 

 

I can relate to that. I am an external user who now understands groups are scenes and scenes are groups.

Paul