apostolakisl Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 If Status 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' is Off And ( Control 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' is switched Off Or Control 'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad' is switched Off ) Then Set 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' 25% Set 'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad' 25% Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') The above program on several occasions has run when I turn button B off. The keypad listed in the program above sits next to the bed and is a 6 button kpl. I have set button "b" to initiate a program that shuts most of the lights in the house off. What has happened on several occasions is that the above program runs, despite the fact that I did not push the main "off" on the kpl. Only the main "off" on the kpl should initiate this program. Why is it running (only rarely) when I shut "b" off?
oberkc Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 I am a little unclear the difference between: 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L', (from program) 'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad', (from program) and "main" (from post text) I wonder if your b-button-initiated program actions are triggering this program and, perhaps, the reason that this program does not always evaluate as true is because sometimes the 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' is not initially off. Only the main "off" on the kpl should initiate this program. Assuming that your master-cans is a device other than the keypad, it seems to me that this could be triggered by actions beyond "only" the main button. For example, if your cans were initially off, and then turned off, this would trigger your program AND evaluate as true, even though no keypad main button were pushed.
apostolakisl Posted December 2, 2011 Author Posted December 2, 2011 There are two switches. 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' is a 2476D, it is the load 'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad' is a 6 button KPL with this address being the main on/off The program works correctly almost all the time. Meaning that, if I phyically turn the master KPL off, or the 2476D off while the light is already off, it turns on to 25%. If the light is anything but off, it does nothing (evaluates false). But every once in a while, if I turn button b off while the 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' is off, it runs the program. Last night for example, my wife had already gone to bed. The lights were off and she was asleep. Both switches correctly indicated that the cans were off by their LED's. Button B was lit as it should be since there were still lights on in the house. I pushed button b, the led shut off and the house lights shut off (as they should). HOWEVER, the overhead cans turned on to 25%, it woke my wife and she was annoyed. This is a BAD thing!!! I can only assume that button b's address is being mistaken for the master address by ISY. Either that or button b is sending the master address. Except, if that were the case, then the proper program for button b wouldn't have triggered (but it did trigger). You will notice in the log that button b turned on/off in their after the initial event. This is becuase I have button b track the status of a whole bunch of lights. All of those scenes take a few seconds to actually turn all the lights off so button b's back light will end up turning back on then off again depending on which lights were on and how long it takes for them to all get shut off by the program. Here is the log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad / Mstr Bed Key B all off Status 0% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:29 PM System Log Scene:Family Rm Ceil S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Kitchen Puck S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Kithchen Island S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Upstairs Hall S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Patio Lts S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Frt Foyer Chandalier S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Exterior Lights S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Dining Rm Chand S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Barrell Hall S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Scene:Back Hall S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Kitchen / Butlers Pantry-Puck L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Garage / Garage-Floures L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Breakfast Room / Breakfast Rm-Chand L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM Program Log Kitchen / Kitchen Intercom-Puck L Status 0% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM System Log Kitchen / Kitchen Micro-Puck Status 0% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM System Log Kitchen / Kitchen Corner-Puck Status 0% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:31 PM System Log Family Room / Family Rm-Over MantleLt L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:32 PM Program Log Kitchen / Kitchen-Over Sink L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:32 PM Program Log Scene:Night Routine S Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:32 PM Program Log Living Room / Living Rm-Couch Lamps L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:32 PM Program Log Living Room / Living Rm-Wine Rm L Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:33 PM Program Log Scene:Master Keypad B On 255 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:33 PM Program Log Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L On 63 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:34 PM Program Log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad On 63 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:34 PM Program Log Scene:Master keypad A Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:34 PM Program Log Scene:Master Keypad B Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:34 PM Program Log Scene:Master keypad A Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:39 PM Program Log Scene:Master Keypad B Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:39 PM Program Log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad / Mstr Bed Key B all off Status 100% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:40 PM System Log Scene:Master Keypad B Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:40 PM Program Log Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L Status 25% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:40 PM System Log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad Status 25% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:41 PM System Log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad / Mstr Bed Key A Kitchen S Status 0% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:41 PM System Log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad / Mstr Bed Key B all off Status 0% Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:42 PM System Log Scene:Master Keypad B Off 0 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:42 PM Program Log
gviliunas Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Hi apostolakisl, I thought I was the only one seeing this type of problem. I have an 8-button KPL that is used exclusively used to trigger 8 ISY programs. My KPL "A" button controls a program that switches on/off all of my 1st floor lights. The "G" and "H" buttons trigger programs that enable "alarm clock-like" morning lights-on for my children's bedrooms located on the second floor. Intermittently, I have found that pressing either "G" or "H" (I haven't tried this with B, C, D, E, or F) will BOTH trigger the correct program AND ALSO trigger the program that is controlled by button "A." I have learned not to press buttons "G" or "H" when my wife is cooking in fear of all 1st floor lights switching on or off. When the problem occurs, I noticed that it is always the load control button, "A," that is incorrectly activated/deactivated when another button is pressed. To troubleshoot this I have: 1. Verified the KPL device links match ISY's - They do 2. Restored the device (multiple times) - No issue observed but it doesn't resolve the intermittent problem. 3. Checked and re-checked my programs - The morning alarm programs are not tied to the All 1st Floor programs 4. Replaced the KPL with a new Dual Band KPL Relay from SH - Intermittent problem remains. 5. Verifed that no mutually exclusive button or non-toggle mode settings are configured in the KPL - At installation, I performed a factory reset and then added the KPL to ISY with the clear all device links selection. Since I hadn't seen any other reports of this problem, I have been assuming that in my site and at that particular location, there must be a signal load or noise source that intermittently corrupts the signal to ISY from the KPL. I am a litttle more confused having observed the problem with a Dual Band KPL but I don't know if power line or RF signaling takes presedence. Is it possible that KPL's intermittently don't form their commands properly or that ISY intermittently doesn't properly interpret KPL commands? Greg
oberkc Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 There are two switches. 'Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L' is a 2476D, it is the load 'Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad' is a 6 button KPL with this address being the main on/off Thanks for the clarification. This is as I suspected. I still wonder why you originally stated that: "Only the main "off" on the kpl should initiate this program."? In my mind, the "off" of the other switch would also initiate this program. I continue to consider the possibility that some of the keypad-b program is triggering this program, but can only suggest experimentation with different starting conditions (mostly associated with the can light switch) to discover any cause-effect relationship. Of course, it could be some type of anomoly as suggested by gviliunas.
apostolakisl Posted December 2, 2011 Author Posted December 2, 2011 Sorry oberck, my mind was focused on the kpl when I said "only the off button should initiate the program", I was trying to convey that exclusive of other kpl buttons. As I look at the log, it appears that these two lines. Master Bedroom / Master-Cans over Bed L On 63 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:34 PM Program Log Master Bedroom / Master Bedroom Keypad On 63 Thu 2011/12/01 11:11:34 PM Program Log are indicating that a program has turned on the lights to 63 (to 25%), and then later you can see a status 25% reporting. The log at this detail level doesn't include actions taken on switches, so i can't tell if ISY received an off press or if it otherwise erroneously triggered the program. I am not sure if I feel better or worse that gviliunas also has the problem. I do appreciate the info and the fact that replacing the kpl did not fix the problem. This will save me that trial and error.
oberkc Posted December 2, 2011 Posted December 2, 2011 Those two lines were the ones that caught my eye as candidates for triggers for your other program. My first inclination would be to try a couple of experiments. I would try running the button-b program with the can lights in various starting configurations (off, 25%, and on). This is an attempt to identify if there is some predictability regading when the first program reacts ton the "b" program, or whether it is truly random. If some pattern or relationship emerges between the two programs, or you can find a way to reliably trigger the first program from the second, I would be tempted to remove, one at a time, the can lights and the KPL main button from the program to see if they, indeed, act as triggers. Given both of our understanding that insteon signals do not "cascade", I would be a little surprised if this is the problem, but it is the only thing that jumps out at me.
apostolakisl Posted December 2, 2011 Author Posted December 2, 2011 I have tried to reproduce the problem and I can't. It just happens every once in a while. Perhaps if I stood there and tried 100 times I might get it to do it. Or maybe not. This tells me that there is not a problem in any of my programming logic but rather some intermittant error in either sending of the correct insteon address when I hit button b, or the interpretation of the address at the level of ISY. I kind of doubt it has anything to do with power line issues. I would expect noise or poor signal throughput to just fail, not get mis-interpreted.
oberkc Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Well...I suspected you had considered everything that I could think of. You know more about most of this than do I. But it was worth a shot. I know that, theoretically, insteon is not subject to those dreaded signal collisions, but it is easy enough to try out the insertion of some wait statements in key places. Unfortunately, that makes your program subject to some self-induced stoppages, should the right conditions arise. Still, perhaps it is worth a try. But there is nothing jumping out at me that is obviously wrong here. Will continue to ponder and keep watching this thread.
ergodic Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 In the category of "it's usually something stupid..." (with me anyway) I'm wondering if this could be something as simple as a mechanical or alignment issue with the switch or 6-button keys or bale. The 6 and 8-button devices are of course are designed to be convertible to each other with change kits, and these are very short throw switches. Possibly pressing the B button is really, physically causing the "Off" switch to make intermittent contact on rare, random occasions? I know not likely, but maybe. You could pull the KPL plate and keys and have a look. That won't necessarily help if the problem is a switch contact itself, so you could also try putting in a brief (2-second) disable on the program when the B button is pressed to see if it prevents the problem from triggering execution. Might be a workaround. Also be interesting to know if it also happens if you assign one of the other three aux. buttons instead of B. (If it is just B it kind of blows this out.) gviliunas replaced his switch and apparently still had the issue, but it still might be worth checking into since there's no better theory on the table at the moment.
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