What is that buzzing from a 2487S dual bank KPL?

[Teken]

So this week I received my 2487S dual band KPL relay. To my surprise this device has a very noticeable buzzing coming from within the unit??

 

So to confirm if any of the others KPL's buzz I went around the house and removed the decora style covers and couldn't hear a thing.

 

I went back to the new KPL, factory reset it, and even tried to switch the line to neutral to see if it made any difference, nope.

 

From there I used a test cord and wired in the KPL and sure enough the incessant buzzing continues!

 

Has anyone experienced such a thing with any of their Insteon products??

 

Teken . . .

[Brian H]

Buzz is there all the time or just when the internal relay is On?

I have had a few ApplinaceLincs buzz when On and it was the relay buzzing.

I don't believe the 2487S has a incorrect wiring sensor that would beep if the load was not connected correctly.

 

I believe it has one of the newer designed switching regulator power supply circuit in it. I wounder if one of the coils isn't wound snug enough and is buzzing.

[Teken]

Buzz is there all the time or just when the internal relay is On?

I have had a few ApplinaceLincs buzz when On and it was the relay buzzing.

I don't believe the 2487S has a incorrect wiring sensor that would beep if the load was not connected correctly.

 

I believe it has one of the newer designed switching regulator power supply circuit in it. I wounder if one of the coils isn't wound snug enough and is buzzing.

 

After listening to it on and off for about an hour. The actual sound appears to be a hissing noise??

 

It doesn't appear to be affecting anything right now that I can tell. All of the portable phones, and wireless Internet all seem to be fine.

 

I am going to do some RF tests and see what comes from this unit.

 

Teken . . .

[Brian H]

Maybe a high frequency noise from the switching supply.

Hope your tests show something conclusive.

[IndyMike]

Hello Tekken,

 

I recently received a 2487S as well. After reading your post, I wired it to an appliance cord - ever so slight buzzing with the relay on. No noise with the relay off.

 

In order to hear the relay, I had to basically put my ear next to the switch. No way would I be able to hear it in when mounted in a box (but then I'm old).

 

These do make a rather loud click when the relay switches. They are also rather DEEP. I didn't know that when I purchased them (rushed to get the 20% off). Smarthome does have a nice comparison of the standard depth vs these newer deep switches on their webpage. I just didn't read it. I may have to re-think where I'm putting these. A double or triple J-box will be tight.

[Teken]

Hello Tekken,

 

I recently received a 2487S as well. After reading your post, I wired it to an appliance cord - ever so slight buzzing with the relay on. No noise with the relay off.

 

In order to hear the relay, I had to basically put my ear next to the switch. No way would I be able to hear it in when mounted in a box (but then I'm old).

 

These do make a rather loud click when the relay switches. They are also rather DEEP. I didn't know that when I purchased them (rushed to get the 20% off). Smarthome does have a nice comparison of the standard depth vs these newer deep switches on their webpage. I just didn't read it. I may have to re-think where I'm putting these. A double or triple J-box will be tight.

 

Hello IndyMike,

 

The noise is apparent in both on / off modes. I was aware that the device was deeper but didn't think it would be so difficult to install!

 

It literally took me 45 minutes just to get the single gang wiring bundle in the proper place just to get the switch in place! The on / off is the loudest I have ever heard from any Insteon device I have on site.

 

On a related note I would appreciate it if you could do a few tests and relay your personal experience with respect to the LED output doing it manually, and via the ISY.

 

Here is the thread discussing the findings: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7561

 

Teken . . .

[Brian H]

That model rated at 20 amps.

My guess is heavier duty, noisy relay.

 

I did see the size comparison diagram for the 2487S with older one, but didn't realize it was that much larger.

Also the Line, Load and Ground leads are #12 wire. The Neutral is #18. #12 his harder to bend into the electrical box.

 

I know it would not fit for me. Old house, small electrical boxes. A standard Insteon Switch is a challenge for me.

[Teken]

That model rated at 20 amps.

My guess is heavier duty, noisy relay.

 

I did see the size comparison diagram for the 2487S with older one, but didn't realize it was that much larger.

Also the Line, Load and Ground leads are #12 wire. The Neutral is #18. #12 his harder to bend into the electrical box.

 

I know it would not fit for me. Old house, small electrical boxes. A standard Insteon Switch is a challenge for me.

 

Yes, your not kidding! Trying to maneuver all those #12 in a tiny shallow J box was incredibly time consuming and finger breaking!

 

But, alas it was done even if it took 45 minutes . . . On a related note I placed one of those foam weather coverings on top of the decora cover. It seems to have dampened the noise quite a bit.

 

You can still hear the *hiss* if you put your ear to it, but it is less noticeable now. The only reason I mention this noise in the first place is that it literally sounds like something is about to catch fire!

 

Teken . . .

[ELA]

Has anyone run the 4 tap phase bridging test on these yet?

I have installed two of these and found the same space issues:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8630&SearchTerms=2487S

 

Last night I ran the 4 tap phase bridging test. I had never tried this before on dual band - box mounted switches. I found it quite challenging to press that little set(air gap) button 4 times rapidly enough to satisfy the darn thing.

 

I also got very confused at first when looking at one 2487S , while an access point in a remote part of the house was the initiator.

The four middle keys intermittently flashed on/off. As it turned out the RF signal level was near the minimum required and as I positioned myself in front of the switch the RF reception was affected. The bridging test was intermittently passing/failing.

 

I then did a test between the two 2487S's and found it very easy to produce intermittent results when standing near the switch (producing RF reflections/attenuation). (switches about 30 ft part, as the crow flies through walls)

 

From this testing (and using my new RF signal strength tester) it made plain (one again) that the access point was the stronger RF sender.

[Teken]

Has anyone run the 4 tap phase bridging test on these yet?

I have installed two of these and found the same space issues:

 

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8630&SearchTerms=2487S

 

Last night I ran the 4 tap phase bridging test. I had never tried this before on dual band - box mounted switches. I found it quite challenging to press that little set(air gap) button 4 times rapidly enough to satisfy the darn thing.

 

I also got very confused at first when looking at one 2487S , while an access point in a remote part of the house was the initiator.

The four middle keys intermittently flashed on/off. As it turned out the RF signal level was near the minimum required and as I positioned myself in front of the switch the RF reception was affected. The bridging test was intermittently passing/failing.

 

I then did a test between the two 2487S's and found it very easy to produce intermittent results when standing near the switch (producing RF reflections/attenuation). (switches about 30 ft part, as the crow flies through walls)

 

From this testing (and using my new RF signal strength tester) it made plain (one again) that the access point was the stronger RF sender.

 

 

ELA,

 

I will even do you one better. I have one 2487S installed, to the right of this switch is a dual band 2457D2 this module is seven feet away.

 

Exactly another seven feet to the left is a 2443 Access Point.

 

When I perform a 4 tap bridge test from the 2457D2 its LED is green, and the 2487S will flash the four center keys. In my mind this indicates that the two are bridged and on opposite phases.

 

While these two modules are blinking away to the left of them is the 2443 AP module which also shows its green and blinking.

 

Again, in my mind the expectation is that they (all 3 modules) are bridged and on opposite legs of the electrical system.

 

Here is the problem: I have another 2457D2 in the kitchen. This module is literally 17 feet from all three modules. When I perform the exact same phase bridge test this device shows it too is communicating, and also on the opposite leg of the electrical system.

 

Now here is where this whole dual band thing makes me wonder: IF, I attempt to perform the exact same bridge phase test from only the 2487S switch.

 

Guess what happens?

 

The 2457D2 on the right will blink RED?? WTF with that?? All the while the 2443 AP on the left shows its green, and bridged??

 

Walking into the kitchen, I observe that the other 2457D2 is doing absolutely nothing!

 

So, I am at this time extremely confused and ask the general UDI collective for their thoughts. Because there are some things that simply do not track and make sense to me.

 

EDIT: I also observe the same problem of standing in the path of the 2457D2, and this device will show flashing green (Kitchen unit) to red. It clearly shows me that my body is deflecting the RF signal.

 

So, this is the part I am trying to grasp here: Is the coupling for these dual band devices RF only?? Because it appears this way to me, and *IF* it is, then why does the insertion of the mp3 charger, and other related transformer interfere with the RF aspect??

 

Teken . . .

[ELA]

Hi Teken,

 

Will this Insteon fun never end

 

In my earlier testing I was focused on evaluating the RF portion of my ELAM. I had to download and read the manual for the 2487S to figure out how to initiate the 4 tap test, because first attempts failed due to the difficulty I was having doing the 4 taps fast enough. I did not pay enough attention to the 2487S light sequencing.

 

After re-reading the manual I see I missed the footnotes the first time. Now I am totally unsure of what I am seeing.

 

Please help me understand how you interpret the manual?

 

I thought is was saying this:

"4 middle leds blinking = in RF range and opposite phase"

" LEDs going solid BRIGHT = in range and same phase"

" no LEDs = out of range"???

 

When I test using an access pt "for sure" on the same phase as the 2487S I get the 4 LEDS blinking.

 

Am I understanding the manual incorrectly (error in manual), or am I just too old

 

Then when you throw in: the Bright LED vs....out of range and no LED vs... your body interrupting the RF signal, it all seems very, very confusing.?

[Teken]

Hi Teken,

 

Will this Insteon fun never end

 

In my earlier testing I was focused on evaluating the RF portion of my ELAM. I had to download and read the manual for the 2487S to figure out how to initiate the 4 tap test, because first attempts failed due to the difficulty I was having doing the 4 taps fast enough. I did not pay enough attention to the 2487S light sequencing.

 

After re-reading the manual I see I missed the footnotes the first time. Now I am totally unsure of what I am seeing.

 

Please help me understand how you interpret the manual?

 

I thought is was saying this:

"4 middle leds blinking = in RF range and opposite phase"

" LEDs going solid BRIGHT = in range and same phase"

" no LEDs = out of range"???

 

When I test using an access pt "for sure" on the same phase as the 2487S I get the 4 LEDS blinking.

 

Am I understanding the manual incorrectly (error in manual), or am I just too old

 

Then when you throw in: the Bright LED vs....out of range and no LED vs... your body interrupting the RF signal, it all seems very, very confusing.?

 

Everything you have indicated above is correct. What I don't understand is how can the right hand side dual band 2457D2 unit I have show a same phase / leg. When the same test is performed using the 2487S? Yet, when you perform the exact same test in the reverse the bridging test shows a opposite leg, with incorrect bridging??

[ELA]

Teken,

 

Seems we are in agreement on what the manual says, perhaps it is a miss print?

From what you have said about the changing behavior, based on who is the initiator, makes me wonder if there could be a firmware error?

 

I have never taken a close look at the 4tap test before this and the DB keypadlinc sure is not very user friendly in that regard. I do not have a spare 2487S to test with on the bench so my testing is limited to the house and my access to that may be limited. My bad for not ordering a spare of every device, just for testing purposes

 

Hopefully a third person will be kind enough to offer their results or a clarification.

 

My current understanding of the RF (radio wave) vs PLC (power line comm) is that the RF can be accomplished without regard to the zero cross for some messages, (e.g.) from RF only devices to a DB unit.

 

To perform the 4 tap test, the messages used are "RF only", yet the units require a good clean zero cross signal in order to determine phase of the power line (for a correct LED blink result). So I can see where a noisy environment might cause issues in what on the surface sounds like RF only.

 

I would not expect a signal sucker to affect the 4 tap test but I could envision noise affecting it in certain scenarios?

 

If I can get access I will try to duplicate your results of the change in LED blink behavior based on who is the initiator.

[Teken]

Teken,

 

Seems we are in agreement on what the manual says, perhaps it is a miss print?

From what you have said about the changing behavior, based on who is the initiator, makes me wonder if there could be a firmware error?

 

I have never taken a close look at the 4tap test before this and the DB keypadlinc sure is not very user friendly in that regard. I do not have a spare 2487S to test with on the bench so my testing is limited to the house and my access to that may be limited. My bad for not ordering a spare of every device, just for testing purposes

 

Hopefully a third person will be kind enough to offer their results or a clarification.

 

My current understanding of the RF (radio wave) vs PLC (power line comm) is that the RF can be accomplished without regard to the zero cross for some messages, (e.g.) from RF only devices to a DB unit.

 

To perform the 4 tap test, the messages used are "RF only", yet the units require a good clean zero cross signal in order to determine phase of the power line (for a correct LED blink result). So I can see where a noisy environment might cause issues in what on the surface sounds like RF only.

 

I would not expect a signal sucker to affect the 4 tap test but I could envision noise affecting it in certain scenarios?

 

If I can get access I will try to duplicate your results of the change in LED blink behavior based on who is the initiator.

 

For everyone's future reference the 2443 AP's are v2.0 with a production date of 0933. The other set of 2443 AP's are v2.0 with a production date of 0945.

 

I have a spare 2487S hopefully arriving next week. So, I will perform some open air tests and some simulated J box installs on the work bench to see what happens.

 

What I am trying to gauge is how much of the RF output is being dispersed and also being smothered in the J Box.

 

ELA, it would be greatly appreciated if you could perform some RF tests with the ELAM so we could have some sort of base line.

 

I just want something to compare to for future reference.

 

Teken . . .

[ELA]

Hi Teken,

As it turns out I was just running some RF attenuation tests to gauge the ability of the new ELAM function to measure attenuation. I put a Triggerlinc inside of a aluminum box about 10" x 2.5" x 5" with a hole drilled so the only thing exiting the box was a plunger of a switch I had connected the ext. input of the triggerlinc.

 

I then had the ELAM monitor the RF and also provide the DB translation to a IOLINC that I linked to the switchlinc. This worked great to be able to measure when the RF signal strength was too low to turn on the IOLINC.

 

The aluminum box has a lid that I used to vary the opening to free air of the RF from/to the Triggerlinc.

It was very cool to see the RF theory prove out. From within about 4 ft of the ELAM I was able to completely close the lid ( complete the Faraday cage) and see you no RF on the ELAM background level of ~400 -500 millivolts and the IOLinc would not activate.

 

All it took was about a very slim (1/8" slot) in the box opening and the IOLinc would receive. ELAM showed only a very marginal increase to ~550 millivolts.

 

 

I found that as long as the box was open at least 1/2" (slot) it did not matter all that greatly the direction of the opening in the box to the receiver (in an ideal bench test).

 

All these tests were 4ft from sender to receiver:

Open air between = 1070 millivolts

box closed on 5 sides = 800-900 when opening was facing toward the receiver.

box closed on 5 sides = 700-800 when opening was facing away the receiver

approx same results with a varied opening of 5" down to 1/2 inch.

 

What I am afraid will make a large difference in the real world install is reflections that will be more greatly affected by the box opening restrictions.

 

As one other point of reference I was measuring about 500-600 mv level at one KPL in my home when the other keypadlinc was the 4 tap initiator and they are about 30 ft apart (as the crow flies).

[ELA]

Teken,

 

I had a chance to run some quick tests using a DB lamplinc (LL), DB keypadlinc(KPL), and and ApplianceLinc(APL) for the 4 tap bridge test.

 

It appears to me that things work but that the manual is incorrect.

It should read:

4 middle keys BLINK when on SAME Phase

LEDs that are already ON, go SOLID ON BRIGHT when on OPPOSITE phase.

 

I got consistent results with the above criteria. Tested 10 different combinations between the 3 devices and the other two devices were as per our normal expectations.

 

One very important point is that some (of the 4 middle) keys on the KPL have to be ON ALREADY for the opposite phase test to give an indication. Which is really screwy cause if you do not have any keys on, then you get no indication at all that they are talking and on the same phase!!! It happens that my KPL on (LED) level is not full brightness, so I am unsure what happens if your ON level for the LEDs if full bright.

 

Hoping someone else will explain to us how this design actually does make sense somehow?