OK, what about this (dual-mode vs non-dual-mode devices)

[ergodic]

I've been installing some outdoor wiring for a new waterfall and landscape lighting.

 

Initially, I installed a new dual-mode on/off outletlinc for the pump and a new dual-mode switchlinc dimmer tied to an outlet for the lighting.

 

In that configuration, the outletlinc communicated just fine, but communication with the dimmer was poor. Understand these two devices are in the same physical j-box, tied to the same wiring, and all of 1" from each other.

 

On a whim, I put in an old (non-dual-mode) 6-button keypadlinc dimmer, replacing the switchlinc dimmer. It communicates just fine.

 

Has anyone experienced this? My initial guess is that two dual-mode devices in close proximity to each other can be a problem.

[Xathros]

I believe ELA ran into an appliancelinc that had very poor powerline comm characteristics after a very short time and ended up sending it back for replacement. It's possible you have a bad module.

 

-Xathros

[ergodic]

FWIW, I replaced the dual-mode dimmer with a non-dual-mode dimmer and communication is now fine.

 

I would have liked to know if it was the two dual-mode devices causing the issue, or just a bad module. But not badly enough to want to trundle over to the factory store a second time if I guessed wrong. Shame on me, but I get tired of this kind of thing.

 

I did test the dual-mode dimmer that I RMA-ed in my little Insteon test bed and it did seem to communicate OK. So my guess would be there is a possible issue with more than one RF-enabled Insteon device in the same box. But it could just have been a fluke of this particular configuration -- noise, odd line characteristics, firmware, the Insteon "X" factor, the GFI breaker on that line, who knows?

 

Since the non-dual-mode devices are generally less expensive than their dual-mode counterparts when available, and there shouldn't be any net benefit to having more than one in the same j-box, my approach going forward will be to avoid multiple dual-mode devices in the same box whenever possible.

[ELA]

Hi erogdic,

 

I cannot quite picture your setup?

Are the two devices in a metal or plastic box? How far away is the next Insteon device that would communicate with these two (RF or powerline?)

 

When communications is marginal sometimes any little change can be the difference between failure and success. It is then difficult to determine whether it is RF at fault ( especially if a metal box is involved).

 

Recently I have been disturbed by noticing that Smartlabs is inconsistent in their specifications. I first noticed it with the lack of a powerline transmit level specification on the Bulblinc.

Looking at your two devices they do list it for the Switchlinc dimmer but not for the dual band outletlinc dimmer.

They do then list it for the single band outletlinc relay?

 

I am really beginning to wonder if powerline communications transmit levels are no longer considered as important as they put out more dual band devices??? I am very suspect as to why these very important specifications are no being included on some devices?

 

I have no direct testing evidence but my gut tells me that there could possibly be issues with two RF transmitters being located in the same box.

 

If you wanted to experiment and had access, you could isolate the two dual band devices from the rest of your install using a filterlinc, or two. That might allow you to evaluate the RF sections of the two devices separate from powerline. You could air gap one at a time and then try both together?

[ergodic]

The devices are in a dual-gang outdoor j-box. The run is about 30 ft. of Romex to another outdoor j-box with two other Insteon controllers (non-dual-band). That then connects through an inside GFCI, and then to the panel. There are other Insteon devices on the branch.

 

My suspicion is that this is one of those Insteon "X-factor" things. Two dual-band devices in the same box probably would work 95% of the time. I just happened to hit the other 5% with this configuration. Just speculation based on past experience.

 

I would be dubious that this is due to marginal communication. Both non-dual-band devices I tried work fine with no delays or apparent retries.

[ELA]

ergodic,

1) Is the outside J-Box plastic or metal?

2) What is the distance from the newest Dual Band devices added to the nearest other Dual Band device? (RF comms path distance)

3) When you say things like "communication is now fine" or "did seem to communicate OK" is this just a gut feel or do you do any sort of communications reliability testing?

By that I mean using something like Houselinc diagnostics or using the ISY communications traces looking for the number of hops used and message timing.

 

Without collecting some sort of communications reliability data, or isolating RF from power line, no real conclusions can be made. You may well have a very marginal communications to the most remote and newly added devices. It may even be possible that no RF is getting to them at all (without knowing if the box is metal or the distance from the next closest RF equipped device).

If no RF is getting through and the powerline comms are marginal, then a substitution of one device for another, working or not working, could be attributed to the differences in their transmitters signal strength ( or receiver sensitivities).

 

It would be very interesting to know, if you were willing to do further testing what the real culprit might be.

[ergodic]

All outdoor boxes are metal. There is only one dual-mode device on that branch, it is in the box where I attempted to put the second dual-mode dimmer.

 

I am indeed mildly interested, but I regret not enough to go tearing into an outdoor box in the most unpleasant location you can imagine to work in, and stuffed full with deep Insteon devices and Wago lever nuts.

 

Probably the majority of Insteon comm problems relate to simple line noise. Then low signal, though in my 2000+ sq. ft house I've never had a single instance where an AP other than the two on the main legs made any difference at all. I do have filterlincs on the few suckers I can't get rid of, but I've never had an AP help that situation at all. I have had situations where plugging in an AP made it worse, which is why my Insteon parts bin now has 3 APs in it.

 

I've been through enough Insteon comm problems to know that there are sometimes these unknown "X-factor" problems that are one-off and unique to a particular configuration, and trying to draw a conclusion from those is pointless. I believe this was likely one of those, which is why I'm not all that interested in wasting a lot of time tracking it down. For example, updating my PLM to V.93 cured a number of reliability issues. As did isolating the PLM to RF-comm-only. Neither case is explainable by noise or sucking. Dual-band Insteon is just a work in progress IMHO.

 

I didn't do any ping testing with Houselinc 2 - for one thing putting the dual-band USB PLM on the branch would have perturbed the configuration. But it is easy to tell if the ISY PLM is retrying simply by watching the delays in the ISY event log. It isn't paper proof of course, but there's no question that things were 50% or less and slow with the second dual-mode dimmer in that box, and 100% reliable and very quick now.