I'm still having lots of communication issues. Please Help!

[jmed999]

I have filterlincs on all laptops, refrigerators, TVs, set top boxes, Blue rays, etc. About a week ago I found (by turning breakers off and testing) that my wife had plugged in an old laptop. Once I unplugged it everything was working great (Hops = 2). Everything worked great for about a week.

 

Then about 3/4 of the devices began to have communication issues. Most were only getting hops left = 1. Some devices aren't responding at all.

 

So I then spent hours and hours trying to find the problem. I did the breaker test again but it got very difficult to determine what the problem was. Some breakers that needed to stay off for a device (in another location) to work had nothing plugged in. ie. I have a bedroom on a breaker and the only thing plugged in was a lamp and a printer. I unplugged those and it seem like it helped but it has been like I'm chasing a moving target. Now with everything unplugged that breaker is still interfering. The only thing electrical on that breaker is the lights and those (4 CFL flood lights and 4 CFL lights in a ceiling fan) are turned off by non HA switches.

 

To get some devices to work without comunnication errors requires several breakers to be off but another device will require a different set of breakers to be off.

 

One common thread seems to be my oven but it is a wall mounted appliance that would be very difficult to remove.

 

I noticed some strange things too like turning a breaker off would hurt signals to some devices. Also, turning off the breaker for my hardwired signalinc helped some devices but hurt others....that didn't make sense either.

 

I've also noticed an appliancelinc I was using to turn something off seems to be causing a problem. When it's plugged in the wall (with nothing plugged in it) it screws with my signal. I thought this was very odd also. Smarthome sells INSTEON devices that are signal suckers or produce noise?

 

So my devices each require different breakers to be off. I have a couple breakers that only have lights in the circuit and those seem to be causing problems but nothing is plugged in. Also, if I test a device twice it will require different breakers to be turned off for each test. This also doesn't make sense. There's not many common threads causing problems among the different devices.

 

I have wall wart access points, dual band devices and a hardwired signallinc. I have been very careful not to unphase the circuits.

 

I have lots of hours and money into solving this problem but don't seem to be making any progress. The frustrating part is that everything was working great a few days ago. I have way more filterlincs (and have more ordered) than the average home.

 

I've got to much money in this to quit so I must solve the problems.

 

Any ideas on what I should do? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[TJF1960]

One common thread seems to be my oven but it is a wall mounted appliance that would be very difficult to remove.

What does this mean exactly? Does it seem to cause problems when the breaker is On, less troubles when Off? Also is it electric or gas?

 

edit: Also how big is your house, size of breaker panel, just one breaker panel, what type of breakers? Have you physically just gone thru the house and unplugged everything unpluggable and retested?

 

edit again: How far away (in wire feet) would you estimate the plm is from the main service panel?

[jmed999]

Sorry! Meant to say...

 

One thing that commonly causes problems with a few devices is my oven. It's a large microwave/oven combo that is mounted in the wall and would be difficult to remove to put a filterlinc on. It is an electric combo.

 

 

The breaker panel is about 20 feet away from the ISY and PLM. I only have 1 breaker panel. It's a 3000 sq ft home. I have not gone through unplugging everything in the house but have turned all the breakers off and slowly turned them on one at a time until I run into errors. Then I unplug items on the circuit until the issue is resolved if possible. Most of the time when I unplug things I still get the errors.

[TJF1960]

I and a lot of others on this board can sympathize with you on the comm. issues. I know I have had my share in the past.

Have you tried relocating your plm to a different outlet? Although at 20 wire feet away from the panel it’s already pretty close as it is. But if it happens to be on a leg that has some healthy signal suckers downstream it could easily affect its performance. You can use an extension cord on the plm and test maybe a couple of outlets as close to the panel as you can get.

Also a very good read, if you haven’t seen it, would be a thread by ELA on his trials in troubleshooting which can be found here http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5923

[jmed999]

I may try to unplug everything in the entire house and go from there. This method could have some advantages over the beaker test method I suppose.

 

For the HA stuff to work what must be plugged in? Just my ISY, PLM, cable modem and router? I can unplug my laptop and take it around the house with me. Should the ISY, PLM, cable modem and router all be plugged into different outlets to begin the test? If so, I will unplug everything except these devices and go from there.

[TJF1960]

Question about your access point locations...do you have 2 access points as close to the panel as you can get, 1 on each leg? Some people have had great success with installing 2 dedicated outlets close to the panel each having an access point plugged in. I understand you have a passive coupler (I do too) but the passive coupler does not condition or amplify a weak signal like an access point, which I think can help to overcome issues with signal suckers.

 

If you have not tried the extension cord method, maybe it would be a good time to try it before unplugging everything.

 

If you are going to unplug everything I would leave the ISY/PLM and access points where they are to begin with and leave the modem and router plugged in as well. Once everything that is unplugable is unplugged start testing with all lights and appliances off. I would also kill the breaker to the oven and any other hardwired appliance that you can.

[ELA]

Hello jmed999,

As TJF1960 said, you are not alone

Troubleshooting Insteon can be very frustrating. To add to the good information TJF1960 has already offered:

 

The trail and error method can produce very mixed results and waste a lot of your time.

It sounds like you have several areas of marginal communications. When the communications are very marginal almost any change you make can change the results. If the communications is very marginal adding or subtracting just one Insteon device can make a world of difference.

 

I would not recommend unplugging everything. Often times communications issues can be due to a combination of things. The combination can be even more elusive if you start by unplugging everything.

 

In lieu of test equipment the two most important things in my mind are:

1) Make a diagram of the home electrical circuits and show approximately where each Insteon device is located on each circuit (include approx.distances). Detail if they are Dual Band or not ( Record their Address next to the device).

 

2) Use software to exercise each device repeatedly ( at least 10 times, 100 would be better).

you might consider purchasing Houselinc to use its diagnostic feature for this.

 

A) Record the results of each device to identify where the worst case offenders are. Keep in mind that the time of day may influence the results as well as "Normal Insteon traffic". For a baseline it would be

best to do this when no one else is home or is sleeping. Perform the same test at different times of the day if possible.

 

When you have this diagram and test results you can then hopefully "see" where the communications most needs improvement.

From there you can then search for any additional signal suckers in those areas. Look at the total "Insteon Loading" in certain areas and the possible need for a Dual Band addition in a certain areas.

Envision the amount of RF coverage you have.

 

If you do this and continue to have issues sharing your diagram could help others better help you.

 

Hopefully your issues are only the result of a lack of signal strength ( due to cable distances, signal suckers, insufficient number of signal repeaters (dual band devices).

 

Unfortunately in some more extreme cases you can have a device\s that are corrupting the others signals. Or a device that has a weak transmitter. I personally had a PLM that had only 1/4 the signal strength of the normal PLM. Having such a device in your network would result in terrible reliability and yet be difficult to identify without the ability to directly measure its signal strength.

(NOTE: I only mention the extreme possibilities so that you are aware that they do exist. I do not believe they are a common issue.)

 

Best of luck to you

[jmed999]

Thank you very much guys! ELA, That is a big help!

 

I'd like to ask about the following guidance...

 

In lieu of test equipment the two most important things in my mind are:

1) Make a diagram of the home electrical circuits and show approximately where each Insteon device is located on each circuit (include approx.distances). Detail if they are Dual Band or not ( Record their Address next to the device).

 

2) Use software to exercise each device repeatedly ( at least 10 times, 100 would be better).

you might consider purchasing Houselinc to use its diagnostic feature for this.

 

 

1) Do you know of any examples or templates for this diagram? I want to make sure I capture everything correctly the first time.

 

2) Will the houselinc diagnostic feature exercise each device repeatedly (say 100 times)? If so it's on sale for $99 right now...I may jump on it

[ELA]

Here is an example of just one room I detailed for a specific test. You could use the same concept but expand it to the entire house. It may be a lot of work initially but will pay off over time as you search out problems. Adding the device IDs is helpful when testing. I have a full blown ACAD drawing of my entire house but it is a little too busy for anyone else's viewing.

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5923&start=114

 

I do not own a copy of houselinc. I use my own diagnostic tools.

From everything I have read Houselinc is a great communications reliability tool and does a repetitive test for you... Take a look at the manual and there are lots of posts out there talking about its use.

[LeeG]

Be careful using HouseLinc or any other HA application in parallel with the ISY. HouseLinc will link all the devices to its own PLM. Now every device has links the ISY is not aware of.

[jmed999]

Here is an example of just one room I detailed for a specific test. You could use the same concept but expand it to the entire house. It may be a lot of work initially but will pay off over time as you search out problems. Adding the device IDs is helpful when testing. I have a full blown ACAD drawing of my entire house but it is a little too busy for anyone else's viewing.

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5923&start=114

 

I do not own a copy of houselinc. I use my own diagnostic tools.

From everything I have read Houselinc is a great communications reliability tool and does a repetitive test for you... Take a look at the manual and there are lots of posts out there talking about its use.

 

Wow...yeah that would be a lot of work for a whole house. Are the lengths, physical distances or powerline distances?

[ELA]

Great input LeeG,

Does houselinc do that automatically and can you set it up to prevent its creating links?

 

IndyMike,

Would be a great resource if he happens to check in and cares to offer his input.

I know he purchased houselinc and did extensive testing using it ( I believe he also has an ISY).

[ELA]

jmed999,

 

To your best approximation the distances should be cable lengths. Some room physical dimensions are also helpful when looking at RF paths.

 

With my diagnostic tool I do not create links to the devices I test. Hopefully houselinc can be used without interfering with the ISY ?

[LeeG]

HouseLinc believes it is the HA application of choice creating the links necessary for it to function, just like the ISY does. Because it is a SmartLabs product where all the Quick Start and User Guides describe using the Set button to create links, HouseLinc handles this by checking the link database Delta number and pulling the device link database if it has been changed manually. Slows the process down but keeps HouseLinc in sync with its devices.

 

I use HouseLinc. Powerhome2, EZSrve and of course the ISY. The ISY is the HA Controller for both my house and my test bed. With sufficient safeguards and knowledge of what each HA product does or does not do they can coexist but it takes an expert to keep them straight. And then the knowledge how to fix it when an oops happens as it always does.

 

HouseLinc does have some great powerline evaluation tools. They do not provide information as to what is wrong or how to solve the problems but does provide very good information on the health of the network.

 

Where jmed999 is I am afraid using HouseLinc will only increase the problems exponentially. Rather than just powerline problems, now there will be logical issues because the device links are not as needed by either ISY or HouseLinc. It can be managed but not by a novice.

[jmed999]

Thanks Lee. It's a great idea but I'm FAAAAAAR from an expert.

 

When I began this HA hobby I didn't think it would require this much time and money. The Smarthome website doesn't spell this out. I have way to much money into this already just to control a few lights and garage doors. I have bought way more filterlincs than I first thought. I'm very tempted to quit and package it all up and sell on ebay and cut my loses. That may be cheaper than moving forward chasing these moving targets and buying more equipment.

 

On the other hand, I like a good challenge and love to learn. And I hate getting beat by something. If I quit now I would feel like I got beat.

 

I need to really think about how to evaluate my problems and make a decision. The thing that kills me is it was working great a week ago...I was getting hops left = 2 on everything for days. The bad thing is I don't know how big my problem is. I don't want to spend more money to find out I need to replace all my CFLs for example. I'm now looking into replacing my router because the ISY doesn't like it. Looks like I'll have to get a pro to remove my large oven to add a filterlinc. These are issues I didn't expect.

 

Oh well. Maybe I'll try the breaker test again since it's really my only option at this point and try to decide from there. Any other suggestions?

[jmed999]

Thanks Lee. It's a great idea but I'm FAAAAAAR from an expert.

 

When I began this HA hobby I didn't think it would require this much time and money. The Smarthome website doesn't spell this out. I have way to much money into this already just to control a few lights and garage doors. I have bought way more filterlincs than I first thought. I'm very tempted to quit and package it all up and sell on ebay and cut my loses. That may be cheaper than moving forward chasing these moving targets and buying more equipment.

 

On the other hand, I like a good challenge and love to learn. And I hate getting beat by something. If I quit now I would feel like I got beat.

 

I need to really think about how to evaluate my problems and make a decision. The thing that kills me is it was working great a week ago...I was getting hops left = 2 on everything for days. The bad thing is I don't know how big my problem is. I don't want to spend more money to find out I need to replace all my CFLs for example. I'm now looking into replacing my router because the ISY doesn't like it. Looks like I'll have to get a pro to remove my large oven to add a filterlinc. These are issues I didn't expect.

 

Oh well. Maybe I'll try the breaker test again since it's really my only option at this point and try to decide from there. Any other suggestions?

[LeeG]

Some CFLs are fine. Others cause serious powerline issues. Same with LEDs, same with florescent ballasts. I have fluorescents in my shop and never had an issue. I have several CFLs in the basement with no problems. Others have CFLs that create havoc on the powerline. A process of elimination. I suspect that some of the devices that are now on FilterLincs can be removed from FilterLincs once the source(s) of the powerline problems are found. Have you checked in area to see if there is an experienced contractor that can help with the communications problems.

 

None of the above is really helpful. Just some common sources reported by many folks. One user had a new AC unit installed. When the outside fan ran it caused serious problems. Unfortunately there is no easy answer as to how to find these issues.

[ELA]

LeeG,

Is it possible to use the ISY's PLM with Houselinc ( by switching the serial cable from the ISY port to a Houselinc serial port on the computer)?.

If you did that could Houselinc then read the PLMs links in order to fill out its list of devices?

 

If that were possible a person might then use Houselinc on a temporary basis only for diagnostics and when finished reconnect the ISY to that same PLM?

 

I know little about Houselinc but it seems a real shame if a lay person cannot use it for its diagnostic purposes alone.

[LeeG]

HouseLinc will spider the network from an individual device. Do not know if that will happen from PLM link records. HouseLinc is sold as a HA application. Like trying to use the Admin Console Show Device Links Table function without the ISY adding devices to its configuration. Never tried to share a PLM between the ISY and HouseLinc. I do share the PLM between HouseLinc and Powerhome. That is relatively harmless as PH does not automatically generate links.

[Brian H]

ELA; The HouseLinc PLM is special and before it runs. It verifies it is connected to a HouseLinc PLM. Gut feeling is a different Sub Cat ID number. That way you can't download the latest HouseLinc and run it on an off the shelf PLM. Without paying for the software.

 

Connecting the ISY's PLM will probably result in HouseLinc not running.

 

Now will the HouseLinc PLM run on the ISY controller. Can't say I have seen data on that.

[oberkc]

On the other hand, I like a good challenge and love to learn. And I hate getting beat by something. If I quit now I would feel like I got beat.

 

I knew I liked you for some reason. I'll bet you play golf, also?

[ELA]

Thanks for your input on Houselinc.

 

It has been my opinion that a person must generate reliability statistics in order to get serious about "knowing" their install is reliable. I have played the game of trial and error.

A person can add a filter and be under the impression that they have fixed the problem, only to find out a few days later there is still a problem.

With reliability statistics of before and after a person gains confidence in any one fix.

 

This seems like a real opportunity for UDI to help their users by adding capability to their diagnostics to generate communications statistics. It is rather laborious to repeatedly send a command to a device/s and review the logs looking for the number of hops used. Monitoring only a few send/receives is not enough. You need to be able to collect data over a longer period (greater number of send/receives).

 

I suppose a person could make a program in the ISY to send a command repeatedly, with a delay between commands of maybe 5-8 seconds, with the command viewer open and then review the logs after the fact. A post processing program could be used to review the logs and parse out the hop counts. This also seems rather painful unless that post processing program already exists?

 

I am always hoping to help people improve the reliability of their systems when they post with communications issues. I feel this requires a few tools to be more effective and reliability data is an important one. Any thoughts on how to use programs in the ISY?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi ELA,

 

We have had this requirement for the longest time now and it just keeps going back to low priority. I do think it's a valuable tool.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[ELA]

Hello Michel,

I can understand that it becomes a low priority. When a persons Insteon network is running reliably then this type of feature is not as beneficial as other new features and support for new devices.

 

Maybe someday. It is just very difficult trying to assist people who are having issues without some better tools being available to them.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi ELA,

 

I totally agree. This is a feature that has to have a higher priority.

 

With kind regards,

Michel