ISY Basic 101 Dumb Question

[brucesprague]

Now here is probably a dumb question that I seem to get bits and pieces from the FAQs and some forum posts, but here goes: How exactly does ISY work with my Insteon system and what are the ramifications if the ISY box goes out?

 

Now, the way I see it, since I have no software on my computer, I click on a link that goes up to UD (to presumably get the LATEST Administrative Console....is that why we go this route?), which then via my local network "sees" the firmware in the ISY-26 black box....right?

 

I assume the non volatile memory in the ISY contains all our "scenes" and "schedule" and "triggers" etc...which runs all our Insteon system....and it then receives and sends out the signals (via the PowerLine Modem...PLM). I assume the PLM contains no code...it only sends and receives signals from the Insteon grid...right?

 

Now I would think that if the ISY were REMOVED from the grid (pulling the plug, it's power goes off, or malfunction), then nothing out in my Insteon system would work (scenes, schedules, triggers, etc)...right? Or, are there some things that DO get hard linked to each local Insteon device for it to remember the switch settings and scenes (I would think SLs might work, but what about KPL buttons...I would think they would fail)? (I did reading from Michel somewhere that having the ISY unplugged, something would still work, but I can not find that post at the moment.)

 

Also, I assume that if the PLM goes south, then everything will not work either....right?

 

I am just trying to get ahead of things and know what to look for in case my ISY or PLM goes bad, and what to expect....I would hate to have all my lights inoperable if one of these components were to malfunction...and then of course there is the WAF to contend with too.

 

thanks,

Bruce

[Sub-Routine]

I don't often use the MyInsteonISY, but I believe it references the firmware on your ISY. I am not sure of this.

 

This I am sure of:

Any scenes that have a local controller (SwitchLinc, KPL, ControLinc, etc.) has the links written to the devices. The ISY is not used when these local controllers are used to control scenes. My hallway lights will still work from any of the three switches if the ISY is disconnected.

 

Schedules and Triggers are stored in the ISY and will not function if the ISY or PLM are MIA.

 

Plan B:

I still have a PLC that I will load timers into if my ISY goes down.

 

Rand

[brucesprague]

I don't often use the MyInsteonISY, but I believe it references the firmware on your ISY. I am not sure of this.

 

This I am sure of:

Any scenes that have a local controller (SwitchLinc, KPL, ControLinc, etc.) has the links written to the devices. The ISY is not used when these local controllers are used to control scenes. My hallway lights will still work from any of the three switches if the ISY is disconnected.

 

 

Schedules and Triggers are stored in the ISY and will not function if the ISY or PLM are MIA.

 

Plan B:

I still have a PLC that I will load timers into if my ISY goes down.

 

Rand

 

Rand, thanks.

 

Ok....that makes sense, the LOCAL controller DOES get its own standalone links and WILL work without the ISY. I may try and unplugging my ISY and see what happens.

 

And on the schedules and triggers, I did figure that the ISY is the controller, and must be functioning for these to work.

 

Now, back to why I need to hit the UD URL to access my ISY....what gives here, anyone? Is that giving me the latest AC?

 

Michel, when you get back, maybe you can elaborate on all this?

 

thanks,

Bruce

[Guest]

Now, back to why I need to hit the UD URL to access my ISY....what gives here, anyone? Is that giving me the latest AC?

 

There are three or four different ways to access your ISY.

 

I use the network IP and/or the external IP method. The external just to make sure the Dynamic IP is still the same.

 

my network URL - http:/192.168.1.104:15583/0/p

 

my external URL - http:/731.160.198.148:15583/o/x

 

I removed one of the / and made up the numbers (for obvious reasons)

 

good luck!

[brucesprague]

HAS, thanks for your reply, and the different ways you can access the ISY firmware. I guess that the Administrative Console is burned into the firmware....I was wondering if by going via the URL link to UD, it was getting it from there. Is this right Michel?

 

Back to my original question on functions of the ISY and malfunctions of it....I indeed experimented and do see how all my scenes and ramps throughout my house work after I have unplugged my ISY from the system. So all ramps and levels and scene information is stored on the LOCAL device (amazing....each Insteon device is like its own computer). And the ISY is ONLY used to "program" the stuff...along with being the "controller" for schedules and triggers....right?

 

Question here...I know that each local Insteon device is supposed to have non-volitile memory....but what happens if some power surge or something wipes this information out from that local device (loses its memory). Does ISY, when it Queries the system, in addition to seeing the on off state, ALSO valid that the scene information is intact, and does it upload it if it is not correct?

 

thanks,

Bruce

[Sub-Routine]

Each device does indeed have a micro-controller. Each device maintains a data-base of scenes.

 

While the ISY can set the local level and ramp rate they will not take affect on any device other than a KPL until power is removed and restored (the switch is reset). This can be done by pulling the set button on switches for a few seconds.

 

I don't believe the ISY checks devices for valid databases. You would have to use Restore Device if one of your modules loses it's mind. I haven't seen this yet. Power failures do not cause any lose of data.

 

Schedules will not fire if the time is past when power resumes. You could use the Repeat function in your schedules if you need to be certain of specific states, otherwise Insteon devices are supposed to recall their previous state when power is restored.

 

Rand

[brucesprague]

Each device does indeed have a micro-controller. Each device maintains a data-base of scenes.

 

While the ISY can set the local level and ramp rate they will not take affect on any device other than a KPL until power is removed and restored (the switch is reset). This can be done by pulling the set button on switches for a few seconds.

 

I don't believe the ISY checks devices for valid databases. You would have to use Restore Device if one of your modules loses it's mind. I haven't seen this yet. Power failures do not cause any lose of data.

 

Rand

 

Rand, thanks. So.....if not updated in the "query", at least I can "update" a device with the "restore" function if needed (and need to do the "air gap" for all devices except the KPL...right)?

 

On power failures....my brother who has some Insteon devices, he says that many times he has to "relink" things....but I also have a son with much Insteon stuff, and he has never "lost" his links after the power went off. I am keeping my fingers crossed. Have you or anyone else out there had an Insteon device "lose" its memory for any reason?

[Sub-Routine]

You only need to do the Air Gap to set the Local level and Local ramp rate, not for any other scenes. Effectively this is removing and restoring the power, so if a power loss causes a memory loss this would not work.

 

A switch can be reset by holding the air-gap (or the set button) in while reapplying power. Perhaps your brother has others in his home who accidentally change settings on some of his devices.

 

We have very few outages here, but I have three LampLincs that I regularly remove power from, sometimes for weeks at a time, and they have always retained their settings. I use them to control low-voltage lighting on my model railroad and they are plugged into a power strip that I am sure to turn off whenever I leave the man-cave.

 

Rand

[brucesprague]

You only need to do the Air Gap to set the Local level and Local ramp rate, not for any other scenes. Effectively this is removing and restoring the power, so if a power loss causes a memory loss this would not work.

 

A switch can be reset by holding the air-gap (or the set button) in while reapplying power. Perhaps your brother has others in his home who accidentally change settings on some of his devices.

 

We have very few outages here, but I have three LampLincs that I regularly remove power from, sometimes for weeks at a time, and they have always retained their settings. I use them to control low-voltage lighting on my model railroad and they are plugged into a power strip that I am sure to turn off whenever I leave the man-cave.

 

Rand

 

Rand, thanks for the info. On my brother....no, just him in the house (unless the cat is running around pressing the set button)....but he said he is always having to "relink" stuff after the storm goes by...I will probe further, does not sound right. Like I said, my son has no problems like you....and so far me too (power has been out once since I installed).

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello Bruce,

 

No questions are dumb here ... they will help us tailor ISY to be more intuitive for everyone.

 

Please find my comments below.

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Now here is probably a dumb question that I seem to get bits and pieces from the FAQs and some forum posts, but here goes: How exactly does ISY work with my Insteon system and what are the ramifications if the ISY box goes out?

The ramifications - as Sub Routine so eloquently pointed out are:

1. No schedules shall be run

2. No triggers shall be sensed

3. All Insteon devices will work as programmed since the programming resides in each device

 

 

Now, the way I see it, since I have no software on my computer, I click on a link that goes up to UD (to presumably get the LATEST Administrative Console....is that why we go this route?), which then via my local network "sees" the firmware in the ISY-26 black box....right?

Yes!

Administrative console is simply a UPnP client which automatically "finds" other UPnP clients on the local network. Administrative console is part of ISY but since in MAC, there's no UPnP to find ISY, that's why you have to go to our website. The effect is that the administrative console is downloaded from our website instead of ISY.

 

I assume the non volatile memory in the ISY contains all our "scenes" and "schedule" and "triggers" etc...which runs all our Insteon system....and it then receives and sends out the signals (via the PowerLine Modem...PLM). I assume the PLM contains no code...it only sends and receives signals from the Insteon grid...right?

95% correct. PLM contains responder links for every "controller" in your Insteon network. That's the only way that ISY (through the PLM) is notified of physical button presses/clicks on the actual Insteon devices. ISY only interprets the received events and a)updates the administrative console with the latest status of each device b)in case of triggers, figures out if conditions have been met and fires the responses

 

Now I would think that if the ISY were REMOVED from the grid (pulling the plug, it's power goes off, or malfunction), then nothing out in my Insteon system would work (scenes, schedules, triggers, etc)...right? Or, are there some things that DO get hard linked to each local Insteon device for it to remember the switch settings and scenes (I would think SLs might work, but what about KPL buttons...I would think they would fail)? (I did reading from Michel somewhere that having the ISY unplugged, something would still work, but I can not find that post at the moment.)

 

Also, I assume that if the PLM goes south, then everything will not work either....right?

You can unplug ISY and EVERYTHING (except schedules/triggers) will continue working as normal. ISY does NOT meddle with Insteon network; it only senses the traffic through the PLM (simply another Insteon device). Now, if you unplugged the PLM, then the only adverse effect would be that your KPL load buttons would blink because they cannot find the responder (PLM in this case).

Replacing a bad PLM is as simple as installing a new PLM and issuing File->Restore Modem (PLM)

 

 

I am just trying to get ahead of things and know what to look for in case my ISY or PLM goes bad, and what to expect....I would hate to have all my lights inoperable if one of these components were to malfunction...and then of course there is the WAF to contend with too.

Excellent post. Again, all your Insteon programs (scenes/ramp rates/on levels) would continue working as programmed regardless of ISY/PLM being on the network.

 

thanks,

Bruce

[brucesprague]

Michel.....as usual, thanks.

More stuff for you to some day put in your documentation!

thanks,

Bruce

[Michel Kohanim]

Bruce,

 

Thank you!

 

With regards,

Michel

Michel.....as usual, thanks.

More stuff for you to some day put in your documentation!

thanks,

Bruce

[sfhutchi]

This thread made me reflect on the UPnP thing. My experience to get this working was anything but trivial. It basically works now, but it seems that UPnP is not extensively used in Windows and at least in my case wasn't simple to 'turn on'. This type of thing could be a road-block for many future users. Many might give up very early on this one. Since this is really a 'Windows' problem and not an ISY problem, you might point to your link for the administrative console as the primary path and offer the UPnP route as an option for those that are familiar with this or want to use it.

 

I know that this probably seems to be opposite to what you are trying to do (with the link from your site as a backup), but this UPnP thing can be a stumbling block to get this to the mainstream. Possibly also consider a local app that can be load on each client pc to dowload the administrative console. This would also cover any concerns from others about access problems from your site to get the console loaded.

[Michel Kohanim]

sfhutchi,

 

The more we go through the UPnP setup - and as you suggested - the more we are moving towards making it secondary. We will keep it since, in Vista, there's no setup whatsoever: it automatically shows up.

 

Thanks so very much for your feedback,

With kind regards,

Michel

 

This thread made me reflect on the UPnP thing. My experience to get this working was anything but trivial. It basically works now, but it seems that UPnP is not extensively used in Windows and at least in my case wasn't simple to 'turn on'. This type of thing could be a road-block for many future users. Many might give up very early on this one. Since this is really a 'Windows' problem and not an ISY problem, you might point to your link for the administrative console as the primary path and offer the UPnP route as an option for those that are familiar with this or want to use it.

 

I know that this probably seems to be opposite to what you are trying to do (with the link from your site as a backup), but this UPnP thing can be a stumbling block to get this to the mainstream. Possibly also consider a local app that can be load on each client pc to dowload the administrative console. This would also cover any concerns from others about access problems from your site to get the console loaded.