3 way switch installation

[DIggerNSE]

I am a new user to home automation, have completed isy setup as well as multiple single pole switclincs, outletlincs. Now attempting to install my first 3 way switch which controls outside entry lighting from 2 locations. (Front entry and garage.) Front entry switch wiring looks normal; red, white and black wires. Garage configuration has two black wires and one white. I should mention both locations are 3 gang boxes containing 2 other single pole switches that control interior foyer lights and garage lights. Please advise. I have answered most of my questions by reading this forum! It has been a great help!!

[LeeG]

"Front entry switch wiring looks normal; red, white and black wires. Garage configuration has two black wires and one white."

 

The Red, Black, White wires in the entry box are all connected to a standard 3-way switch?

Are these three wires in the same cable?

 

Does the 3 wire cable run to the garage box or the light fixture?

 

Are you comfortable measuring voltage on the various wires?

 

If you have an ID on the Smarthome forum Stu of Stusviews was an practicing electrician in a past life. He is very good at guiding folks having trouble converting 3-way wiring to Insteon.

 

Conceptually the Insteon switch at the garage box and the Insteon switch at the entry box must have unswitched 120v power. That means the normal 3-way wiring to the entry switch has to be retasked to provide unswitched 120v power. Depending on whether the Red/Black/White at the entry switch is in the same cable and depending on whether that cable runs to the garage box or the light fixture dictates how this is done.

[oberkc]

When you say "Garage configuration has two black wires and one white", is that all!? Please describe entire garage configuration in terms such as:

 

this is a single switch box. there are two cables entering the box. one cable has two conductors, black and white. the second cable has three conductors, black white and red.

[apostolakisl]

The big "if" that you have here is: do you have a neutral in each box. This will be a white wire and it will not be one of the 3 wires connected to the switch. If you don't have any whites like this, then you really don't need to read on. Just let us know about that. In a triple gang box, you will usually have several of them spliced together and tucked in the back of the box, not connected to any switches.

 

In a 3 way switch, at one box, one of the 3 wires is "hot", or in other words, always has 120vac. At that same box, the other 2 wires will be travelers (wires that run between the 2 boxes).

At the other box, 2 will be travelers and the third is the load.

 

NOTE: Travelers can be black and red, or black and white with the white re-purposed as a hot. They should have tagged a white used like this, but probably didn't. Also, the traveler wires may run through the box at the lamp and may be spliced. So, just because the travelers are black and white at one box doesn't mean they will be black and white at the other.

 

Basic procedure to figure this out in most cases. This requires a multi meter. This also requires working with hot wires, so if you aren't skilled to do this, hire an electrician.

 

1) Turn off breaker

2) Unhook both switches completely

3) Hang the wires out of the box with the bare ends well away from anything else and put wire nuts on them.

4) Turn the breaker back on

5) Uncap the wires one at a time and touch your volt meter to the bare metal tip and the other lead to the bare ground wire in the box.

6) You should find that one of the 6 wires is hot. Tag it as such.

7) Turn the breaker off again.

Now you need to figure out which is the load (wire to the light itself) and which 2 are the travelers. In the box with the hot, set your meter on ohms and attach it to the 2 wires that aren't the hot (leave the hot capped off). Then have your buddy go to the other box and touch together the wires, 2 at a time until you see the circuit close (ohms drop to ~0). Now you know those 2 are the travelers, tag them.

9) Now you know the only wire left over goes to the load, tag it as such.

 

Now putting your Insteon switches in.

 

1) Connect your Insteon Neutral to a neutral in the box. This is a white wire in the box that is NOT connected to a switch. Usually in a 3 gang box there will be several of them spliced together and tucked in the back of the box.

2) Connect your ground.

3) In the box with the hot, connect one of your traveler wires (use a black or red), the Insteon hot, and the house hot together and cap it off.

4) At the box without the load, cap the red wire on the insteon switch

5) At the other box, connect your ground and neutral the same way.

6) Connect your Insteon load (red) to the load wire we labeled earlier in the box.

7) Now you have 2 figure out which of the 2 travelers is now your new hot. With both wires capped, turn the breaker back on. Your first switch should turn on. Now at the other location, uncap one wire and touch your meter (now set to volts) to the wire and the other lead to a ground. If it reads 0, test the other. One of them should be 120vac. Once you know which it is, cap it and turn the power off.

Now connect that wire to your Insteon hot.

9) Turn power back on, both switches should light up. The switch at the load will have control of the light. The other switch will need to be linked using your ISY to create a scene for it to work.

[DIggerNSE]

The Red, Black, White wires in the entry box are all connected to a standard 3-way switch? YES

Are these three wires in the same cable? YES

 

I dont know where the 3 wire cable from the entry runs; either to the fixtures or garage gang box ?????

 

I can measure voltage on various wires

 

In answer to oberkc:

 

The garage is 3 gang box with 3 swithces : the 3 way that is the issue, another single pole controling a ceiling light in garage bay 1 and another single pole switch controling ceiling lighting in bay 2 and 3.

 

Garage box has 5 cables coming in:

 

Cable 1 is 2 wire blk/white (blk goes to dark colored screw on 3 way switch) (white to Neutrals)

 

Cable 2 is 3 wire blk/white/red (blk and white to 3 way switch) (red to wirenut with all blacks)

 

Cable 3 is 2 wire blk/white (blk to single pole switch) white to neutrals

 

Cable 4 is 3 wire blk/white/red (blk to other wire nutted blks as well as red from cable 2

 

Cable 5 is 2 wire blk/white (blk to wire nutted blk) white to neutrals

 

I hope I have all the details !! thank you!

[apostolakisl]

The Red, Black, White wires in the entry box are all connected to a standard 3-way switch? YES

Are these three wires in the same cable? YES

 

I dont know where the 3 wire cable from the entry runs; either to the fixtures or garage gang box ?????

 

I can measure voltage on various wires

 

In answer to oberkc:

 

The garage is 3 gang box with 3 swithces : the 3 way that is the issue, another single pole controling a ceiling light in garage bay 1 and another single pole switch controling ceiling lighting in bay 2 and 3.

 

Garage box has 5 cables coming in:

 

Cable 1 is 2 wire blk/white (blk goes to dark colored screw on 3 way switch) (white to Neutrals)

 

Cable 2 is 3 wire blk/white/red (blk and white to 3 way switch) (red to wirenut with all blacks)

 

Cable 3 is 2 wire blk/white (blk to single pole switch) white to neutrals

 

Cable 4 is 3 wire blk/white/red (blk to other wire nutted blks as well as red from cable 2

 

Cable 5 is 2 wire blk/white (blk to wire nutted blk) white to neutrals

 

I hope I have all the details !! thank you!

 

 

From what you said, you have neutrals.

 

It is very hard for someone who is not there to make heads or tails of the wire colors and if they are jacketed together what that means. If you follow the protocol I spelled out, you should have success no matter whether the wires go through the load box or go directly from switch box to switch box with another wire going off to the load box.

[LeeG]

Be sure to turn breaker Off before making changes. Make changes to both the garage and entry locations before power is restored.

 

 

Cable 1 is 2 wire blk/white (blk goes to dark colored screw on 3 way switch) (white to Neutrals)

 

This should be the cable going to the lighting fixture(s). Black goes to the Red load wire on the Insteon Switch. White is neutral to fixture(s) and remains as currently connected.

 

 

Cable 2 is 3 wire blk/white/red (blk and white to 3 way switch) (red to wirenut with all blacks)

 

This should be the cable going to the entry box 3-way switch. Remove Red wire from Black bundle and cap. Black wire to Black bundle (where Red wire was) and White wire to White neutral bundle. Be sure to make the entry box changes before returning power to box. The Black/White wires will be supplying unswitched power to the Insteon switch in the entry box. The Red traveler wire is no longer needed or used. Do not cut Red wire off, just cap it in case the normal 3-way is restored when house is sold.

 

The Insteon switch in the garage box, Black wire to Black bundle, White wire to White bundle. This provides unswitched power to the Insteon switch in the garage box.

 

In the entry box, the Red wire on the existing 3-way switch is capped (no longer needed or used). The Black and White wires have been retasked in the garage box to provide unswitched power. The Black wire goes to the Black wire on the Insteon switch. The White wire goes to the White wire on the Insteon switch. The Red load wire on the entry Insteon switch is capped. It will control the garage Insteon switch by linking the 2 switches together.

[DIggerNSE]

apostolakisl and Lee.... your both giving conflicting info... Per apostolakisl instructions and my testing.....In the entry box... the red is the HOT and the black in the garage is the LOAD . Now Lee you have different approach??

[LeeG]

Red wire of 3 wire cable is connected to the Black bundle which does put hot on that wire. That could be left alone and connected to the Black wire on the Insteon switch in the entry box but that is NOT convention when not connected to a 3-way switch. The Red wire in the 3-wire cable should be disconnected and capped. Then use the Black and White wires in the 3-wire cable to supply unswitched power to the entry Insteon switch.

 

There is a difference between what will physically work and what is expected wiring convention should an electrician work in either of the boxes. An electrician would expect the possibility of power on the Red wire of the 3-wire cable when it is connected to a 3-way circuit. Once converted to Insteon there is no longer a physical 3-way circuit. There is a logical 3 way configuration accomplished by linking the two Insteon switches together. From an electricians point of view he will not be expecting power on that red wire because the 3-way circuit has been dismantled. However, it is your house so do whatever you want with it.

.

[oberkc]

Cable 1 is 2 wire blk/white (blk goes to dark colored screw on 3 way switch) (white to Neutrals)

 

This cable is, in my estimation, the switched power to the fixture. Black is power, white is neutral. Good.

 

Cable 2 is 3 wire blk/white/red (blk and white to 3 way switch) (red to wirenut with all blacks)

 

White and red are, currently, the two travellers to the other three-way switch. Good. As LeeG states, red is hot. It is the unswitched power. I expect that you will find the red wire in the other box connected to the black (common) screw.

 

You are in GREAT shape here. You have unswitched hot. You have a neutral. You know which cable goes to your fixture (cable 1). In this location, remove cable 2 red from the other blacks and cap. Connect cable 2 black to the blacks. Connect black of your new switch to these blacks, as well. Connect cable 2 white to the bundle of whites. Connect switch white to this bundle, as well. Connect switch red to cable 1 black. The only loose cable you should now have is cable 2 red.

 

In the other switch location, you have red, black, and white. White is now neutral. Black is now unswitched hot. Red is nothing...cap it. Cap the red wire from the switch (it is not needed). Connect black to black and white to white. Your wiring is complete.

 

Cross link the two switches. You are done.

[apostolakisl]

apostolakisl and Lee.... your both giving conflicting info... Per apostolakisl instructions and my testing.....In the entry box... the red is the HOT and the black in the garage is the LOAD . Now Lee you have different approach??

 

If all 6 wires are disconnected (both of the 3 way switches were unhooked and the wires not connected to anything), then just one of the 6 wires should have 120v on it. So, if the red in one box tested 120v, and the others are 0v, then indeed that is your hot. There is no other way about it.

 

There are normal ways to color code these things, but that doesn't mean the normal way was followed. But regardless of color, there will always be 2 travelers and a load at one box, and 2 travelers and a hot at the other. There is no other way for standard 3 way wiring to work.

 

So when in doubt, it always work to actually test.

 

Here is the theory:

 

Both switches need an unswitched hot. In a 3 way switch, you will only have this at one box. You need to find that hot and connect it to one of the travelers. Now what used to be a traveler, is an unswitched hot providing the second box with its unswitched hot. Both of those hots are use to power the insteon switch and thus connected to the Insteon black wire. The other traveler wire will typically not be needed and should just be capped at each end.

 

The neutrals are local to both boxes and will be connected to the Insteon neutral. If by chance one box did not have a neutral, you could use the other traveler to bring neutral over.

 

Finally, the box with the load gets connected to the Insteon red (this is where the switch outputs power when you turn it on). In the other box, the Insteon switch has no connection to any load, so you MUST cap off that red wire. Whenever that switch is on, the red load wire on the Insteon switch will be hot.

[djones1415]

apostolakisl: great post.

 

I've read what I could, but three ways stumped me. Tried one, and when I saw two whites in one box and both looked hot, I knew I was over my head. Had an electrician come in. Four three-way switches later, I saw what he was doing, and have now done five on my own.

 

What I have learned is to forget about the colors on the wires. In my house, at least, the color means nothing. I have seen hot whites. And I seen have black and red travelers showing up as two blacks at the other box (having gone through a junction box I didn't even know was there).

 

So---forget colors. Read apostolakisl's post until it makes sense. Get a voltmeter. Spend 30 minutes or more looking at the two boxes and figure out how it's wired before making any changes. It will come to you. apostolakisl's post would have saved me a lot of time

 

Basically there is a hot at one box and a load at the other. Find the hot. Send it to the Load Box on one of the travelers. Find that hot on the Load Box and you can easily find the load wire at the Load Box (apostolakisl has you do this by the process of eliminating the two travelers and deducing the other one is the load. You'll also find that touching the hot at the Load Box to the load wire will light the fixture.) Once you have the hot at the Hot Box you can hook up the Insteon switch at the Hot Box (no load there, hence the capped red wire from the Insteon switch). At the Load Box you'll hook up the Insteon switch with hot (black), load (red), and white neutral.

 

Question for apostolakisl: Am I right that it is ok to hook up two Insteon switches to the same hot in a box, and to the same neutral in a box? I have a couple of Insteon switches in one box, and I have them both fed by the same hot and same neutral.

[Vyrolan]

Question for apostolakisl: Am I right that it is ok to hook up two Insteon switches to the same hot in a box, and to the same neutral in a box? I have a couple of Insteon switches in one box, and I have them both fed by the same hot and same neutral.

Yes...all the stuff on the same circuit are "the same hot and same neutral" whether they're in the same box or not. It's just one continuous flow out from the breaker (along the "hot" wires) and then back to the breaker (along the neutrals).

[apostolakisl]

Question for apostolakisl: Am I right that it is ok to hook up two Insteon switches to the same hot in a box, and to the same neutral in a box? I have a couple of Insteon switches in one box, and I have them both fed by the same hot and same neutral.

Yes...all the stuff on the same circuit are "the same hot and same neutral" whether they're in the same box or not. It's just one continuous flow out from the breaker (along the "hot" wires) and then back to the breaker (along the neutrals).

 

Agreed. Just that if they are both load bearing switches then the watt capacity gets downgraded. Too much heat too close together.

 

(apostolakisl has you do this by the process of eliminating the two travelers and deducing the other one is the load. You'll also find that touching the hot at the Load Box to the load wire will light the fixture.)

 

Yeah, I've done that. And I never turn the power off either. But I don't suggest those things to other people. By the way, if you so choose to not turn the power off (at your own risk of course), be sure to pull the air gap on the Insteon switches first. The arcing is not good for them.

[djones1415]

Question for apostolakisl: Am I right that it is ok to hook up two Insteon switches to the same hot in a box, and to the same neutral in a box? I have a couple of Insteon switches in one box, and I have them both fed by the same hot and same neutral.

Yes...all the stuff on the same circuit are "the same hot and same neutral" whether they're in the same box or not. It's just one continuous flow out from the breaker (along the "hot" wires) and then back to the breaker (along the neutrals).

 

That's what I thought too. But practical experience is telling me something else when it comes to Insteon switches. Here's what I have found - and how I (think I) fixed it.

 

I had three 2-gang junction boxes handling three two-way switches. Hot came in to box 1 only. Fixture feeds (loads) were in box 2 (1 load) and box 3 (2 loads). So I ran the hot from box 1 to box 2 (via traveler) and to box 3 (from box 2 via another traveler). At box 3 I attached the blacks of two ToggleLinc Relays to the single hot. Both switches worked fine for a time - both at the switch and via the ISY. But in a short period of time (it seems after a few ISY commands - but it could have been after one ISY command) one of the switches would stop working (no indicator light on the switch, wouldn't control the load, and couldn't communicate with the ISY). If I unhooked it and wired it up again, it would work fine again - for a time. Then it would stop.

 

What I've done, and so far so good, is to pigtail out of the single hot with two wires and hooked each of those wires to one of the ToggleLinc Relays.

 

I'm thinking that by connecting the hots of both switches directly wired together somehow got ISY commands for one switch incorrectly routed to the other, and the other somehow figured out that it wasn't meant for it and just shut down.

 

By the way, I've put neutrals for both switches together with the box's neutral, figuring that any command coming out won't be at danger of being directed to the wrong box.

 

Has anyone else had switches that had their hots connected directly to each other work over time? I'd be interested if so - because I can't think of any other reason mine failed after time.

[apostolakisl]

I'm thinking that by connecting the hots of both switches directly wired together somehow got ISY commands for one switch incorrectly routed to the other, and the other somehow figured out that it wasn't meant for it and just shut down.

 

 

You have a curious anecdote, but no, that isn't how it works. Insteon commands are not routed, all commands go out on the power lines and are received by any switch in range. If the hop count has not reached its limit, the switch repeats the command. The repeat is timed to coincide with other repeats from other switches by counting cycles on the 60 hz wave. If the command includes instructions addressed to that switch, the switch executes. Otherwise, it is just a repeater.

 

Personally, I have quite a few switches in my house where 2, 3, or even 4 Insteon switches have the hots and neutrals bundled into a single wire nut.

[djones1415]

Then it beats me.

 

(Previous post I said they were "two way" switches...they were three way, not two way.)

 

Anyway, the pigtails seem to have fixed the problem...at least these three ways have now worked for several hours now, first time since I put them in. These were the first switches where I had hots from more than one switch wired together. All other switches I've installed - both two way and three way - have had a separate hot for each switch.

 

I'll try and give Smarthome a call this morning and see what they say. If they have any explanation, I'll post it here.

[apostolakisl]

My guess is that you had a poor connection with some arcing under the wire nut. The tinned multi-stranded wires aren't the easiest things to splice. They are nice and flexible, however.

[Xathros]

There are normal ways to color code these things, but that doesn't mean the normal way was followed. But regardless of color, there will always be 2 travelers and a load at one box, and 2 travelers and a hot at the other. There is no other way for standard 3 way wiring to work.

 

I would like to point out that it is possible (and fairly common) for the load and hot to be in one (switch or junction) box with just a run of 14/3 to the remote switch box(s). I had two 3 way circuits in my place wired this way before Insteon upgrades.

 

-Xathros

[apostolakisl]

There are normal ways to color code these things, but that doesn't mean the normal way was followed. But regardless of color, there will always be 2 travelers and a load at one box, and 2 travelers and a hot at the other. There is no other way for standard 3 way wiring to work.

 

I would like to point out that it is possible (and fairly common) for the load and hot to be in one (switch or junction) box with just a run of 14/3 to the remote switch box(s). I had two 3 way circuits in my place wired this way before Insteon upgrades.

 

-Xathros

 

I just installed a Maestro Lutron MS-OPS2 switch in my office. It is an occupancy sensing switch. It appears that it uses ground to keep it working. The unit specifically says in the instructions that it won't work without ground connected and it has no neutral.

 

So, it appears that a UL listing is possible leaking power to ground. Perhaps it is only a few micro-amps and that is why it is allowed.

[oberkc]

So, it appears that a UL listing is possible leaking power to ground. Perhaps it is only a few micro-amps and that is why it is allowed.

 

I understand that some devices are, in fact, as you describe...using ground as a neutral for very low-power uses. Speculation on some of the other sites I read suggest that it is because these types of devices were becoming more common that the code was revised to require neutral in each switch location.

 

I would like to point out that it is possible (and fairly common) for the load and hot to be in one (switch or junction) box with just a run of 14/3 to the remote switch box(s).

 

I cannot say whether this is more "common" than other wiring, but it is certainly one of the standard approaches. Seems to me there are three general wiring methods: power to fixture, power/load to/from same switch, power and load to/from different switches.

[apostolakisl]

So, it appears that a UL listing is possible leaking power to ground. Perhaps it is only a few micro-amps and that is why it is allowed.

 

I understand that some devices are, in fact, as you describe...using ground as a neutral for very low-power uses. Speculation on some of the other sites I read suggest that it is because these types of devices were becoming more common that the code was revised to require neutral in each switch location.

 

 

Insteon switches draw about .7watts (5.8ma). Not sure what UL has to say about that. Of course a load bearing Insteon runs the full load to neutral when on, so that would definitely be off limits.

 

I suppose I could put my amp meter on the ground and see what that maestro switch does.

[oberkc]

Insteon switches draw about .7watts (5.8ma). Not sure what UL has to say about that. Of course a load bearing Insteon runs the full load to neutral when on, so that would definitely be off limits.

 

Yes, that is about what I have heard. I am not aware of ANY insteon switch rated by UL or anyone else to use ground as a neutral. While power draw (when not loaded) may be minimal, I still think it a bad idea to hook up insteon other than how shown in the instructions, as designed.

[apostolakisl]

Insteon switches draw about .7watts (5.8ma). Not sure what UL has to say about that. Of course a load bearing Insteon runs the full load to neutral when on, so that would definitely be off limits.

 

Yes, that is about what I have heard. I am not aware of ANY insteon switch rated by UL or anyone else to use ground as a neutral. While power draw (when not loaded) may be minimal, I still think it a bad idea to hook up insteon other than how shown in the instructions, as designed.

 

I am not recommending it.