Are LED bulbs less noise then CFL bulbs ?

[MuchHat]

I read CFL-s are often to blame for Insteon communication problems. Does anybody know if the new LED bulbs are less noise?

 

The local ACE hardware store here has LED bulbs at about $8-$10 a piece and I might just replace the CFL-s with those.

 

I already have everything plugged in thru FilterLyncs including the furnance, fridge, TV, computer and everything that goes into a socket. Still Insteon is not as reliable as I would have wanted.

 

MuchHat

[ELA]

Hello MuchHat,

 

In my experience CFL's are also signal suckers, which can add to your comm issues.

Here is some comparative testing I did with a few LEDs and several CFLs in terms of signal sucking:

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=69957#p69957

 

I also tested the few LEDs I had for noise and did not detect much if any in the Insteon band.

NOTE: any CFL or LED can emit noise. It depends upon the manufacturer's design. In general I would highly recommend LED over CFL.

 

It is very hard to know for sure without testing. I more recently added an LED strip light with an external switching power supply. That turned out to be a major signal sucker. ( near bottom of list).

[Brian H]

May depend on the brand and its design.

Most have a internal noise filter to keep electronic emissions off the power lines.

Some use a capacitor across the power input and those would probably act like a signal sucker.

If it had a small coil on the line input before the capacitor {I have seen this} then it probably would not have much noise on the power lines and would also not be a big signal sucker.

 

I have LSG Definity and Phillips EnduraLED dimmable LED bulbs in use and they seem to be fine with Insteon.

 

One thing some folks miss when using LED or CFL bulbs.

If they are not labeled as dimmable. They should not be used on any dimming devices. Including Insteon modules.

[apostolakisl]

Indymike would be the guy to ask since he appears to have a high end oscilliscope.

 

However,

 

I have had quite a few LED's of various brands and models and have never detected an Insteon performance change with any of them.

 

I have had several CFL's with obvious problems.

 

So, extrapolating out my small sample size, I would say that LED's seem to be pretty clean.

[MuchHat]

Thank you folks for the insightful answers. I'll go ahead and replace first the bulbs in one area that is problematic (garage) to see if that makes a difference.

 

Is there any easy way to just measure a device and figure out if it is a signal sucker?

E.g. measure some form of impedance or capacitance with an affordable meter.

My budget would be about $200 for testing equipment if such a method exists.

 

I copy pasted below the table from ELA's other post on signal suckers.

This table I found it very useful if measuring directly is not possible.

 

Signal Suckers Table

(1x = one standard Insteon load)

 

0.11x -- prime surge strip with emi known capacitor of 0.01uf

0.11x -- leviton surge outlet (model 5280)

0.20x -- ecosmart 8w led (ecs 20 ww fl120)

0.20x -- ecosmart 13w led (ecs a19 type)

0.53x -- helical 10w cfl (fle 10ht2/2/xl/sw)

0.55x -- energetic 13w cfl (fe153-13sb 13w)

0.73x -- feit 15w cfl

0.97x -- greenlite 23w cfl (23w/els-dim-a-2700k)

1.00x -- n:vision 23w cfl (sku160-740)

1.15x -- radio shack surge strip (w/emi, 0.1 uf cap)

1.20x -- belkin single outlet surge protector (w/emi, 0.1 uf cap)

1.30x -- 18v ryobi litium ion charger

1.33x -- 20" crt sylvania tv

1.53x -- delta #10drcg5 dual stage emi filter

1.57x -- dremel tool charger

2.60x -- hp laptop computer power supply

3.50x -- panasonic 32" lcd tv

3.00x -- direct tv hd receiver & power supply

2.90x -- electric recliner power supply

3.14x -- pure ion air cleaner ( has 0.68 uf cap inside)

3.26x -- lg french door refrigerator

3.60x -- dell xps computer power supply

3.67x -- apc back-ups xs 1000 (on-line)

4.00x -- cabled (optiled) 6' led strip light power supply = pgw18-24

6.00x -- apc back-ups xs 1000 (powered off)

 

MuchHat

[Brian H]

Well since I moved from X10 to Insteon.

I have a JVEngineering XTBM X10 test meter and one of their XTB-IIR repeaters.

Since X10 uses 120KHz power line frequency and Insteon 131.65KHz power line frequency.

I can test devices for changes in X10 signal strength. Most times any X10 problems would also show up with Insteon and since the XTBM actually knows a Insteon signal. On occasion it will give an approximate reading with an I appended to it.

[apostolakisl]

Well since I moved from X10 to Insteon.

I have a JVEngineering XTBM X10 test meter and one of their XTB-IIR repeaters.

Since X10 uses 120KHz power line frequency and Insteon 131.65KHz power line frequency.

I can test devices for changes in X10 signal strength. Most times any X10 problems would also show up with Insteon and since the XTBM actually knows a Insteon signal. On occasion it will give an approximate reading with an I appended to it.

 

My understanding is that none of that x10 testing equipment if available anymore (except perhaps used on ebay). If you have a link to this equipment, I would love to see it.

 

My past research has never come up with an inexpensive way to test this stuff. Oscilliscopes are quite pricey, even ancient used ones.

[Brian H]

The XTB line of products is in production and avilable.

Just designed for X10 and I use my XTBM mostly to see noise around 120KHz the X10 frequency. Though it does have a range that ends around the Insteon 131.65KHz.

I can send an X10 signal. Then observe differences with the test subject connected.

http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM_description.htm

 

A few of us have asked if a Insteon Verison could be made.

So far no go but may think about it.

[apostolakisl]

The XTB line of products is in production and avilable.

Just designed for X10 and I use my XTBM mostly to see noise around 120KHz the X10 frequency. Though it does have a range that ends around the Insteon 131.65KHz.

I can send an X10 signal. Then observe differences with the test subject connected.

http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM_description.htm

 

A few of us have asked if a Insteon Verison could be made.

So far no go but may think about it.

 

Great. The first sentence of the description pretty well summed up my experience in looking for said devices.

 

Here is a link to the ordering page.

 

http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_ordering.htm

[romani]

Some use a capacitor across the power input and those would probably act like a signal sucker.

If it had a small coil on the line input before the capacitor {I have seen this} then it probably would not have much noise on the power lines and would also not be a big signal sucker.

 

 

I have LSG Definity and Phillips EnduraLED dimmable LED bulbs in use and they seem to be fine with Insteon.

[Brian H]

I have dissected some dead CFLs and have found most have a cap across the AC input.

Some do have a coil in the Line input before the cap and others do not.

 

I have had good luck with both Philips and LSG bulbs. With Insteon devices.

 

Though my LSG Definity DFN A19 W27 V1 120 bulbs generate so much RF garbage. They knock all of my FM radios in the house for a loop and kill off the air TV signals.

[StarRider]

About a month ago, Home Depot started selling Cree LED bulbs. I picked up a box, and they work great with my Insteon modules. They dim very well, and the price is cheap compared to other LED bulbs.

[masonlvvy]

About a month ago, Home Depot started selling Cree LED bulbs. I picked up a box, and they work great with my Insteon modules. They dim very well, and the price is cheap compared to other LED bulbs.

 

hi,StarRider,where you bought them from and how much need per box?

[Brian H]

Home Depot is where the Cree bulbs are avilable.

Many single bulb packs are only in the stores. A few are also online or ship to store. Like the six packs of 60 watt and 40 watt equivalent. I have in use right now. I see they now have different bulb styles besides the A19 shell ones I have.

 

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog ... ol=bol&c=1