Electrical Wiring problem?

[djones1415]

I have a ToggleLinc Dimmer that is controlling a load that works fine for three days. Then it stops. Won't turn on the four hall overhead light fixtures that it controls; other switches can't communicate with it; the ISY can't communicate with it. I flip the breaker off and back on, and it will work fine for another three days. The switch is ok (this is the second one I've used and it's doing the same thing the first one did.)

 

This was originally part of a 3-way switch which I rewired. Actually there were three 3-way switches in three 2-gang switch boxes. After rewiring to get hot and neutral to each of the three boxes, I had two loads, but couldn't find the third load wire (this switch). Stumped, I had an electrician come in. I'm glad to say it wasn't just me. The switch was strangely wired, and we chased it around for a couple hours...finally opened up the fixture, and he thought he had it figured out. We found a junction box that wires were going through...but like I said, he thought we had it a good hot, neutral, ground, and found the load wire.

 

But three days later...off it goes. Flip the breaker, good for another three days, then down again. Changed switches...three days good, then stops responding.

 

Any of you electrician gurus have any ideas?

[LeeG]

Does the toggle control the load when no communication is possible?

[djones1415]

no

[LeeG]

Could be the size of the load is more than the ToggleLinc can handle.

 

Could be the type of load is causing the ToggleLinc to hang up.

 

Could be a wiring problem that takes days for the three switches to get in the combination of On or Off to compromise power to the ToggleLinc. This can be determined by checking the voltage to the ToggleLinc when it hangs up.

 

When the toggle will not control the load the issue is with the device. Not necessary the fault of the device since more than one device has demonstrated the same symptom. The total wattage being controlled, the type of load being controlled, the wiring of the ToggleLinc have been constants when multiple ToggleLincs have been used in that location.

[djones1415]

Thanks for the ideas.

Could be the size of the load is more than the ToggleLinc can handle.

I'll check the wattage. Hadn't thought of that.

 

Could be the type of load is causing the ToggleLinc to hang up.

 

All incandescent.

 

Could be a wiring problem that takes days for the three switches to get in the combination of On or Off to compromise power to the ToggleLinc. This can be determined by checking the voltage to the ToggleLinc when it hangs up.

I wasn't clear. It's just this one switch that I'm having trouble with. The other two are working fine. I just mentioned them because they were part of the original wiring. All three are coming off of the same hot (using travelers to the other two boxes), and same neutral (ditto).

 

I'm wondering if there may be some sort of voltage seepage (in or out of the switch) that takes some time before the circuits in the ToggleLinc sense a problem and shut down. The timing is just so consistent - three days to failure.

 

Doesn't seem to cause permanent problem for the switch. It just stops working - indicator light stays on, but no response until power (breaker) is turned off and back on. The Log file shows Error in the Control column and the number 1 in the Value column in response to an ISY query (after the switch had stopped working) with the next Log line showing blank in the Control column and Value column and a -2 in the Log Type column.

[LeeG]

No need to evaluate communication. When the toggle will not physically control the load how comm is not working does not much matter. Could run an Event Viewer at LEVEL 3 and request a Query. It will likely show the device did not respond to commands. Really does not matter when the toggle has no control.

 

With multiple ToggleLincs showing the same symptom of toggle stops working it is environmental. Load, type, wiring.

 

What else is on the same circuit?

[djones1415]

What else is on the same circuit?

 

Lots of switches, lights - floods, fluorescents, incandescents - an oil burner. Everything works fine except this one switch.

 

Also, btw, it isn't the wattage. This one switch is controlling three fixtures each of which has two 60 watt bulbs.

 

I think the hot and/or neutral are going through a fixture/junction box/something and either losing voltage or bleeding voltage and somehow the switch sees, at some single point, a voltage coming in that's too low (or perhaps a neutral with too much) and shuts down - although it's interesting that the switch LED stays on.

[LeeG]

Take a look at this topic on the Smarthome forum regarding ToggleLincs and wiring..

 

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11255

[ELA]

hello djones1415,

 

Do you think it is coincidence that it occurs after 3 days or is it possible there is an event that coincides with the problem showing up?

In particular are all 3 switch locations exercised regularly, possible one location is rarely used ( maybe every 3 days or so?)

 

Can you have another person help you do a test? One person watches the status LED at the problem switch location while the other person switches each of the other two switches on and off several times slowly. Does the status LED behave erratically when one of the other switches is operated? Any chance this problem switch might be losing power when one of the other switches is operated?

 

You mentioned your electrician had problems getting it working. Can you have him, or can you, sketch a diagram of how it is wired and post it?

[apostolakisl]

I know you already did and R and R with smarthome on it, but is is still possible to have 2 bad switches. I assume you have other toggle lincs in your house that are wired to a load that are behaving fine. Consider swapping them and see if the problem follows the switch or stays at the location.

 

Have you tried pulling the air gap instead of resetting the breaker? If the problem is something with your 3 way wiring where a different switch is affecting power to this switch, resetting the breaker may be resetting a different switch which in turn is affecting this switch. Pulling the air gap on just this switch will only affect that switch. If it starts working again after an air gap reset, you can at least say that the problem is internal to that switch once locked up. That doesn't mean that some other switch isn't transiently doing something which scrambles the logic control on that switch.

 

Consider going through all of the j-boxes that have any wires to that switch and checking that your splices are tight. Arcing can cause transient power surges that may be locking it up.

 

When the switch stops functioning, is there any LED activity? Since I don't own any toggle lincs, I don't know what the led is supposed to look like when the light is on vs off, but what state is it indicating (if it is on at all).

[Xathros]

What else is on the same circuit?

 

Lots of switches, lights - floods, fluorescents, incandescents - an oil burner. Everything works fine except this one switch.

 

 

Burner motor causing a spike on the line at shutoff? At my last house, I had an access point that would lockup when the furnace shutdown. Took forever to figure that one out. Moved it to another basement circuit on the same phase and problem went away. Doesn't explain the 3 days like clockwork unless your burner is on a schedule.

 

-Xathros

[Kram]

Did anyone ever determine the cause of this problem with a ToggleLinc shutting down after three days? I am experiencing the exact same thing on a ToggleLinc Relay 2466S.

 

At first, I thought that it might be the wiring, but I have checked this several times and I am confident that the wiring is okay. All that is on the same breaker are low wattage lights.

 

Doing an Air Gap on the switch restores its operation for three days. I did a Factory Reset and a Device Restore from my ISY994i and was okay for four days. This morning, I replaced the flourescent bulbs with incandescents, but from the other posts in this thread that does not appear to be the problem.

 

I do not have another ToggleLinc for trying a swap.

 

Any assisance will be appreciated.

 

Kram.

[LeeG]

Does the Toggle control the load when the switch cannot be controlled remotely.

[Kram]

Hi LeeG,

 

You asked:

Does the Toggle control the load when the switch cannot be controlled remotely.

 

No it does not.

 

Kram.

[arw01]

Kram, what's the revision level of this switch? Might help with others down the road.

 

No Toggle Lincs here, but I seem to recall reading they tend to have a few more issues on the boards over at Smarthome, especially relative to the number of people that have them installed.

[Kram]

arw01 asked:

 

what's the revision level of this switch?

 

The label says v6.1 followed by 1248.

 

Kram.

[LeeG]

Kram

 

When the device primary function will not work, toggle/paddle/button will not control the physical load, the device is hung up. It is either the device itself or something on the powerline is causing the device to hang. Replace the ToggleLinc. If the new one has the same issue look for something on the powerline generating interference. Look at what else is on the circuit, appliances, lighting (type), motors, etc.

[Kram]

Thanks for your reply LeeG.

 

Replace the ToggleLinc.

 

I don't exactly have spare switches to try and I hadn't planned to get anymore ToggleLinc switches in the near future. I am not too excited about buying another one just to try and resolve this problem.

 

If the new one has the same issue look for something on the powerline generating interference. Look at what else is on the circuit, appliances, lighting (type), motors, etc.

 

All that is on the same circuit is low wattage light bulbs and a clock radio. One of the other lights on the same circuit is controlled by a SwitchLinc switch and it is not experiencing any problems.

 

Kram.

[LeeG]

There are no independent tools for evaluating powerline issues. You can try unplugging/disconnecting everything on that circuit except the ToggleLinc and see if it operates correctly as the only thing on the circuit. The Air Gap switch can be used to remove power from devices on that circuit controlled by Insteon devices. If the ToggleLinc runs for a week or so without issues restore power to a few of the devices and see what happens. If the ToggleLinc is working correctly eventually you will identify what is causing the interference.

[Brian H]

Are the low wattage lights 120 volt or a low voltage type with a electronic power supply?

Are the lights incandescent or another type. Like CFL LED etc.?

[Kram]

LeeG said:

You can try unplugging/disconnecting everything on that circuit except the ToggleLinc and see if it operates correctly as the only thing on the circuit.

I will think about this option. We are talking basement lights, so I have to proceed gingerly. My spouse does not care to grope around in the dark. Maybe I will go the opposite route and disable one thing at a time, starting with the clock radio.

 

BrianH asked:

Are the low wattage lights 120 volt or a low voltage type with a electronic power supply?

Everything is 120 volt.

 

BrianH also asked:

Are the lights incandescent or another type. Like CFL LED etc.?

All of the light bulbs are incandescent.

 

Thanks for your assistance LeeG and BrianH.

 

Kram

[Kram]

Me again,

 

I have been testing this switch and have observed the following:

 

I removed the CFL lamps on this circuit and unplugged a clock radio (old analogue model with a motor). The switch worked okay for a week. I plugged the radio back in and the switch gave out after only one day. I unplugged the radio and installed one CFL in place of one of the incandescent bulbs. The switch gave out after 4 days. I replaced the CFL with a LED bulb. The switch gave out after 5 days.

 

So it appears that this switch has trouble with motors, CFL and LED bulbs.

 

However, the description of this switch on the Smarthome web page says:

Quiet Control of Fluorescent Lights, Ceiling Fans and Motors

and

Controls fluorescent lights, electronic ballasts, halogen lamps and low-voltage lighting transformers

and

allows you to include fluorescent or non-dimmable lights, fans, and other appliances in your INSTEON home control network.

 

It appears that I have a bum switch. I guess my next step is contact the manufacturer. Thanks to those who offered me advice about my problem.

[Xathros]

I have a few old togglincs that act like that. I replaced them and now use them for bench tests only.

[Brian H]

Togglelinc Dimmer is not designed to run a motor, standard CFL bulb or standard LED bulb. Dimmable CFLs and LED bulbs may depend on the exact bulb.

That could be your problem as you are turning on and off an incorrect type load.

Even at 100% On the AC on the load connection is not a pure AC sine wave and things like motors, CFL bulbs and LED bulbs don't work correctly and maybe making enough power line garbage to lock up the Togglelinc.

[Brian H]

On the Togglelinc Dimmer sales page it says to use the Toggllinc Relay for things like CFLs and motors.

http://www.smarthome.com/2466DW/ToggleL ... ite/p.aspx