Motion Detector issues...

[Steven M Castano]

I'm trying to follow the second simple example here: http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index ... _Bathrooms

 

I'd light my kitchen lights to turn on with a motion sensor, then turn off after a few minutes all controlled by the ISY so they can stay on for 5 minutes during the day when the light really isn't bothering anyone, and only 1 minute at night when it might.

 

A few questsions?

1) Do the motion detector and the kitchen switchlinc need to be in a scene together?

2) The scene "Kitchen" should be Kitchen SwithLinc be in that scene as a controller or a responder? It's going to be a 3 way circuit shortly with 2 SwitchLinc Switches.... will that matter?

3) Does my program pasted below look ok?

 

If
       Control 'Kitchen / Devices / MotionDetector01-Sensor' is switched On
   And Control 'Kitchen / Devices / MotionDetector01-Sensor' is not switched Off

Then
       Set Scene 'Kitchen / Scene / Kitchen' On

Else
       Wait  1 minute 
       Set Scene 'Kitchen / Scene / Kitchen' Off

[Steven M Castano]

So I tried modifying the program to turn the SwitchLinc itself on and off instead of the scene, and that doesn't work. I get a communications error which I assume is because they are not in the same scene together.

 

When I let the program run as written with ONLY the SwitchLinc in the scene as a controller... the program runs, the STATUS of switchlinc in the ISY is set to on... but the lights never actually come on.

 

I'm a little lost on this one now! hahaha

[Xathros]

So I tried modifying the program to turn the SwitchLinc itself on and off instead of the scene, and that doesn't work. I get a communications error which I assume is because they are not in the same scene together.

 

When I let the program run as written with ONLY the SwitchLinc in the scene as a controller... the program runs, the STATUS of switchlinc in the ISY is set to on... but the lights never actually come on.

 

I'm a little lost on this one now! hahaha

 

This sounds to me like the ISY is unable to communicate with the switchlinc. Are you able to turn the scene on/off from the admin console? Can you turn on/off the switchlinc directly from the admin console?

 

-Xathros

[Steven M Castano]

Yup, it works perfectly. I can turn it on/off/fast on/fast off, all with no problems. I also use it in a few scenes that I trigger from my MobiLinc client and that works fine. Also, any and all updates from the ISY to that Switchlinc when linking/adjusting all work without a problem. Also, the even viewer appears that the hop count says there at least 1 sometimes 2 hops left.

 

There is also a switchlinc dimmer in the same gang box tha works perfectly also for my diningroom lights.

[Xathros]

How is the MS configured? Is it in occupancy mode? Is it sending On Only? What is the timeout delay?

 

-Xathros

[Steven M Castano]

How is the MS configured? Is it in occupancy mode? Is it sending On Only? What is the timeout delay?

 

It's currently configured with a 5 minute timeout, sending both ON and OFF commands and set to do it all day, not just at night.

 

I tried setting it to send ON only, but then the ELSE statement never ran.... I guess I could modify the program so it turns the scene on, waits 5 minutes, then turns the scene off all in the THEN statement and tell the motion detector to only send the ON commands. Might that work better?

 

How does everyone else seem to do it?

[Xathros]

How is the MS configured? Is it in occupancy mode? Is it sending On Only? What is the timeout delay?

 

It's currently configured with a 5 minute timeout, sending both ON and OFF commands and set to do it all day, not just at night.

 

I tried setting it to send ON only, but then the ELSE statement never ran.... I guess I could modify the program so it turns the scene on, waits 5 minutes, then turns the scene off all in the THEN statement and tell the motion detector to only send the ON commands. Might that work better?

 

How does everyone else seem to do it?

 

There are a number of variations.

 

A) MS as controller of Scene On/Off with timeout.

 

MS As controller of Scene On Only with a program to delay and turn off.

 

C) MS not in a scene On Only with programs to watch for On and delay for off.

 

A&B offer fast light response on motion but less control over when the light are enabled/disabled on motion.

C offers the greatest flexibility but has an inherent 1 - 2 sec delay between detection and response.

 

Now, back to your problem... Are you seeing the MS Status change in the admin console? I assume you are letting the MS timeout and turn off then moving to cause an On correct?

 

-Xathros

[Steven M Castano]

There are a number of variations.

 

A) MS as controller of Scene On/Off with timeout.

 

MS As controller of Scene On Only with a program to delay and turn off.

 

C) MS not in a scene On Only with programs to watch for On and delay for off.

 

A&B offer fast light response on motion but less control over when the light are enabled/disabled on motion.

C offers the greatest flexibility but has an inherent 1 - 2 sec delay between detection and response.

 

Now, back to your problem... Are you seeing the MS Status change in the admin console? I assume you are letting the MS timeout and turn off then moving to cause an On correct?

 

-Xathros

 

I will have to check everything again and document EXACTLY what I'm seeing, but from memory:

 

With the MS and the SWL both as controllers of the scene.... lights come on and off exactly as expected, from motion detection, and when triggering the scene from the ISY or MobiLinc.

 

With the MS NOT in the scene, and the SWL as a controller and the only device in the scene.... it would seem all the on/off commands are received from the MS, and the program operates as expected, however... the status of the SWL in the ISY switches to ON, but the lights have not come on. Then, when it goes to turn them off... I get the communications error.

 

I will change the scene around tomorrow during the day and take log captures of everything.

[LeeG]

"With the MS NOT in the scene, and the SWL as a controller and the only device in the scene.... it would seem all the on/off commands are received from the MS, and the program operates as expected, however... the status of the SWL in the ISY switches to ON, but the lights have not come on. Then, when it goes to turn them off... I get the communications error."

 

This is a result of a comm problem between the SWL and the ISY PLM. Things work with the MS as a Controller in the Scene because commands flow from the MS to the SWL directly. That path must be okay if the SWL responds reliably. The path were the Program turns the Scene On/Off is not reliable because there is no command retry between the ISY PLM and the SWL where a Program driven Scene On/Off is involved. When comm is spotty Scene On/Off is often where issues surface.

[Xathros]

OK this makes more sense now. When operating a scene, the ISY does not verify that the SWL actually turned on/off and so does not retry in the event of a failure. When Operating the SWL with a direct command, the ISY expects a response and if it doesn't get one, it tries two more times before giving up and saying "Unable to communicate with...". You have marginal comms between the PLM and the SWL location based on your above description. It seems the MS and whatever dualband device it is communicating through have good comms to the SWL since it is able to operate the SWL as a scene controller.

 

Run a level 3 event trace and turn on/off the swl (device) a few times from the Admin console. Lets see what we get for comms.

 

-Xathros

 

Edit: Hehe. LeeG beat me to it!

[Steven M Castano]

Ahhh... ok, that def explains some of it. So I'm back to resolving some coms issues.....

 

I wonder if I can write in a little something in the program to retry, query, etc....

 

Any ideas? Or just start working on network problems?

[Xathros]

Well, you could tell the program to set the Kitchen SWL On/Off rather than the scene. That would at least give you the built-in retries of a direct command. Probably best to solve the comm issues though.

 

-Xathros

[Steven M Castano]

So, set the program to turn on the DEVICE, not the SCENE?

 

Ok, I can try that.... I'm actually pretty sure I did. That was when the ISY said the light was one, but it wasn't.

 

I'll try it again.

[LeeG]

I think memory has that reversed. Turning the Scene On the ISY marks the SWL On based on how the Scene is defined, not with knowledge the SWL actually turned On.

 

If a Direct command marks the SWL On it is because the SWL responded with an ACK indicating the On command was accepted. It is the ACK (or lack of it) that allows the PLM to automatically retry. If the SWL ACKs the On command but does not turn On physically that is a SWL issue. Really don't think that is the case.

[Xathros]

So, set the program to turn on the DEVICE, not the SCENE?

 

Ok, I can try that.... I'm actually pretty sure I did. That was when the ISY said the light was one, but it wasn't.

 

I'll try it again.

 

That sounds more like a scene failure to me. A direct command failure usually results in a "Can't Communicate" popup in the admin console.

 

-Xath

[Steven M Castano]

 

That sounds more like a scene failure to me. A direct command failure usually results in a "Can't Communicate" popup in the admin console.

 

-Xath

 

 

I totally agree.... the program ran, set thr scene on..... but the lights never came on. Then, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I manually turned the scene on from the admin console and it worked great. Let the MS timeout, and tried again.... still the same behavior....

 

Then, just to be double sure, I turned the scene on and off through MobiLinc and via the ISY built in web interface. They all worked fine, just not when the program ran.

[LeeG]

Turning the Scene On/Off with the Admin Console generates the same Insteon command as when a Program sends a Scene On/Off. If the results are different it is environmental. Easy to verify. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Turn the Scene On with the Admin Console and run the Program to turn the Scene On. The same Insteon command is issued. If the physical results vary (device turns On some of the time) it is comm related. Could also be other things the Program is doing which is affecting comm.

[Steven M Castano]

Turning the Scene On/Off with the Admin Console generates the same Insteon command as when a Program sends a Scene On/Off. If the results are different it is environmental. Easy to verify. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Turn the Scene On with the Admin Console and run the Program to turn the Scene On. The same Insteon command is issued. If the physical results vary (device turns On some of the time) it is comm related. Could also be other things the Program is doing which is affecting comm.

 

 

That's a good point. I'm going to try both and run a log the whole time. I'll dig through it myself (which I'm getting fairly good at now) and I'll post it here also.... for a second set of eyes!

[Steven M Castano]

So, I realized I don't have to be home for ALL of this... here is the log output from turning the SCENE on via the admin console:

 

Fri 02/08/2013 02:42:54 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 1B CF 11 00
Fri 02/08/2013 02:42:54 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.1B CF 11 00 06          LTONRR (00)
Fri 02/08/2013 02:42:54 PM : [  20 84 56 1]       ST 255
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:05 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 00 00 1B CF 13 00
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:05 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.1B CF 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:05 PM : [  20 84 56 1]       ST   0

 

This appears to work and turn everything on/off EVERY time as expected

 

Here is turning the SwitchLinc Switch on and off itself:

 

Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:56 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 20 84 56 0F 11 FF
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:56 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 20.84.56 0F 11 FF 06          LTONRR (FF)
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:57 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 20.84.56 1E.80.B1 27 11 FF    LTONRR (FF)
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:57 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 20.84.56-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1
Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:57 PM : [  20 84 56 1]       ST 255
Fri 02/08/2013 02:44:02 PM : [iNST-TX-I1  ] 02 62 20 84 56 0F 13 00
Fri 02/08/2013 02:44:02 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 20.84.56 0F 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)
Fri 02/08/2013 02:44:02 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 20.84.56 1E.80.B1 27 13 00    LTOFFRR(00)
Fri 02/08/2013 02:44:02 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 20.84.56-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1
Fri 02/08/2013 02:44:02 PM : [  20 84 56 1]       ST   0

 

From the looks of it... the on/off commands are sent, received and confirmed very quickly and on the first try. The comms seem to be consistent too, with there always being 1 Hop left. It seems like as I repeat the command, it goes through EVERY time.... once in a while it tells me Hops Left = 0, but it still works.

 

So I would think triggering either the SCENE or the DEVICE from the program should work, no?

 

(I can't test with the motion sensor yet as I'm not home and doing this remotely)

[LeeG]

When running the Scene On/Off away from home how do you know the responders actually turned On?

 

 

The Hops Left=1 is okay, Hops Left=2 is best. The fact that Hops Left=0 happens at times when the Hops Left=1 is the normal means comm to that device is marginal and may well be unreliable with a Scene On/Off where there is no automatic retry.

 

EDIT: if looking at

 

Fri 02/08/2013 02:42:54 PM : [ 20 84 56 1] ST 255

Fri 02/08/2013 02:43:05 PM : [ 20 84 56 1] ST 0

 

these simply reflect what the ISY thinks happened because of the Scene definition. There is no feedback from any device with a Scene On/Off that it actually worked.